Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

Take back control. That's a massive idea that produced a strong clear feeling. Who knows how many people voted because of that alone. Now you can argue we won't have more control after Brexit and with May's deal that could well be true. But at the time - what a great idea. Control. Take back control. Democracy. Power to the people. Taking power back from unelected officials. That strikes a chord in anyone who loves freedom. Again - this is all about feelings. So those who think the world is run on 'facts' will hate this idea. But there it is.

we live in an indirect democracy system.
taking back some shared control from the EU then what? to give it to a bunch of self serving idiots behaving like school kids every Wednesday at noon.

 

[Zlatan]

The fact is - people didn't vote based on the facts alone - they never do. People make decisions based on how they feel way more than how they think rationally. Ask anybody in retail.

So no matter what you think the facts of Brexit are - and no matter how much you argue for those 'facts' - in a way it doesn't matter. It's about how you feel.

Some people this is way more true than for others. Women's retail outlets tell us women use their feelings almost exclusively when buying stuff. Men tend to hold the end of the spectrum where some men base nothing on feelings and make decisions purely based on fact.

One trouble with this whole Brexit question is that this is all a prediction about the future - so it's pretty much impossible to know the facts. Oh sure you can have a good guess. But as with the emergency budget and the massive hike in unemployment 'facts' that were put out by the Chancellor pre-vote - things do not always go the way so-called intelligent people predict.

And truth is we can not predict with any certainty how things will turn out (though I am aware there are those here who strongly argue they can predict what is going to happen).

So when people ask why did the UK vote for Brexit - you have to realise people voted to a very large extent simply how they felt about it. Who back then was in possession of the facts? Literally nobody. I mean literally nobody. So people vote on how they felt. And so it came down to some simple - very simple ideas - because the simpler the idea the clearer the feeling it provokes.

Take back control. That's a massive idea that produced a strong clear feeling. Who knows how many people voted because of that alone. Now you can argue we won't have more control after Brexit and with May's deal that could well be true. But at the time - what a great idea. Control. Take back control. Democracy. Power to the people. Taking power back from unelected officials. That strikes a chord in anyone who loves freedom. Again - this is all about feelings. So those who think the world is run on 'facts' will hate this idea. But there it is.

The facts of the matter are - largely - irrelevant. Here on this thread we have a bunch of fact-loving men arguing about why the country voted a certain way - or what we should now do. It's like your wife comes home with a new dress and you're trying to argue how come she made the wrong decision. She doesn't care for your 'facts'. She likes the dress and she will never really be able to explain why. And nor can many of us Brexiters. Because when presented with the so-called 'facts' we still voted the way we did based on what you'll say is foolishness. An idea about taking back control and freedom. Silly silly ideas. But ideas that move people to great things.

James musing on a Saturday morning.

Have a nice day (and I actually do mean that Jonathan).

Very good post. Well said.

 

[Woosh]

Very good post. Well said.

I know better than to argue with my wife when she goes shopping. Same with brexit.

 

[oldgroaner]

A reminder of what's at stake here

1:56 PM - 4 Jan 2019

Still believe all will be well?

 

[oldgroaner]

Project Fear? but this is from the Leave HQ!
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128&fbclid=IwAR3qKxrKd685mRLVMP-uxh9iaorQTEMkATMG0laHrKg3-idPJ0Y3WQKjrnk

And this was in 2017 too!

LeaveHQ 13/03/2017 "One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected."

May will get her deal through because of Fear.

 

[Woosh]

Project Fear? but this is from the Leave HQ!
http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128&fbclid=IwAR3qKxrKd685mRLVMP-uxh9iaorQTEMkATMG0laHrKg3-idPJ0Y3WQKjrnk

And this was in 2017 too!

LeaveHQ 13/03/2017 "One can say, unequivocally, that the UK could not survive as a trading nation by relying on the WTO Option. It would be an unmitigated disaster, and no responsible government should allow it. The option should be rejected."

May will get her deal through because of Fear.

WTO brexit is attractive to conservative voters because they don't have to face the cost of brexit immediately.
But it's only a short term option, OK for a few months, we will have to settle with the EU soon after we leave.

 

[jonathan.agnew]

Brexit requires balls does it? what happens to the female half of the population?
You really have to wonder who is paying for the services of the Three Stooges, and why they can't feed them better material?
I mean to say the fate of the nation is at stake and all some individual can equate that with is male testicles. Worse, imagine it forms that basis of an argument in favour of Brexit?

It's curious, the trolling does have a monotonous repetitive quality that suggests it may be paid for. wouldn't have thought an ebike site would attract this, and its a paradox, they're giving the thread hits and giving anyone who reads it a visceral glimpse of the mentality behind brexit

 

[Danidl]

An excellent post James,and unfortunately containing a lot of truth.
Feelings and this entire "post truth " miasma has been allowed to swamp hard nosed thinking. It is dishonesty and an personal indulgence of a particularly pernicious sort. People talking about "MY TRUTH",as if truth were relative
Agreed, that when dealing with the future we do not have facts,but we do have trends and we do have reasonable predictions based on previous trends.

Taking the entire "taking back control" motif. Very effective at face value,until one starts to scrape away and find that no-one had taken any control away.
""Unelected and unaaccountable EU " a great motif but unfortunately equally untrue.
Now i don't know about you ,but i have a word for facts deliberately and continually mis stated and it is not Marketing .
Deliberately obscuring known facts in order to promote an agenda shares a similar name.

 

[Woosh]

People talking about "MY TRUTH",as if truth were relative

truth is indeed relative.
you should know.
Take a straight line. It's still a curve and its curvature can be concave or convex, depending how you see it.

 

[gray198]

we live in an indirect democracy system.
taking back some shared control from the EU then what? to give it to a bunch of self serving idiots behaving like school kids every Wednesday at noon.

at least those idiots can be removed by the British people unlike the ones in Brussels. In all this I fail to understand why anyone would want to allow our country to be run by a foreign power. I have nothing against being friends and trading partners, but am opposed to being controlled by them

 

[Fingers]

It's curious, the trolling does have a monotonous repetitive quality that suggests it may be paid for. wouldn't have thought an ebike site would attract this, and its a paradox, they're giving the thread hits and giving anyone who reads it a visceral glimpse of the mentality behind brexit

Hush now Tom.

You are the troll. You are the ultimate liar.

A lie within a lie.

 

[Zlatan]

Even in science the truth is reference based. Quantam physics, Einstein's theory of Relativity all have to take into account your frame.. Apollo astronauts came back a few seconds younger than had they remained. Time dilation is all with reference to where and individual circumstances.
A simple example. Drop a stone from a moving train. Relative to train stone goes backwards relative to a someone stood by track it goes same direction as train. Tracing the stones curve produces more discrepency. Truth isnt that simple. Einstein was viewed as wrong for years.

 

[Zlatan]

at least those idiots can be removed by the British people unlike the ones in Brussels. In all this I fail to understand why anyone would want to allow our country to be run by a foreign power. I have nothing against being friends and trading partners, but am opposed to being controlled by them

Well said.
The remainers see me as obsessed with Junker. I, m not its what he represents. Junkers always will have, quite naturally, preference towards Luxembourg. We will always be some backwater for him and their EU system.
We will never attain our full potential whilst in EU.
You dont have to spend nuch time travelling around Europe to see where the bulk of EU money goes and it neither us or the underpriviliged.

 

[flecc]

The fact is - people didn't vote based on the facts alone - they never do. People make decisions based on how they feel way more than how they think rationally. Ask anybody in retail.

So no matter what you think the facts of Brexit are - and no matter how much you argue for those 'facts' - in a way it doesn't matter. It's about how you feel.

Some people this is way more true than for others. Women's retail outlets tell us women use their feelings almost exclusively when buying stuff. Men tend to hold the end of the spectrum where some men base nothing on feelings and make decisions purely based on fact.

One trouble with this whole Brexit question is that this is all a prediction about the future - so it's pretty much impossible to know the facts. Oh sure you can have a good guess. But as with the emergency budget and the massive hike in unemployment 'facts' that were put out by the Chancellor pre-vote - things do not always go the way so-called intelligent people predict.

And truth is we can not predict with any certainty how things will turn out (though I am aware there are those here who strongly argue they can predict what is going to happen).

So when people ask why did the UK vote for Brexit - you have to realise people voted to a very large extent simply how they felt about it. Who back then was in possession of the facts? Literally nobody. I mean literally nobody. So people vote on how they felt. And so it came down to some simple - very simple ideas - because the simpler the idea the clearer the feeling it provokes.

Take back control. That's a massive idea that produced a strong clear feeling. Who knows how many people voted because of that alone. Now you can argue we won't have more control after Brexit and with May's deal that could well be true. But at the time - what a great idea. Control. Take back control. Democracy. Power to the people. Taking power back from unelected officials. That strikes a chord in anyone who loves freedom. Again - this is all about feelings. So those who think the world is run on 'facts' will hate this idea. But there it is.

The facts of the matter are - largely - irrelevant. Here on this thread we have a bunch of fact-loving men arguing about why the country voted a certain way - or what we should now do. It's like your wife comes home with a new dress and you're trying to argue how come she made the wrong decision. She doesn't care for your 'facts'. She likes the dress and she will never really be able to explain why. And nor can many of us Brexiters. Because when presented with the so-called 'facts' we still voted the way we did based on what you'll say is foolishness. An idea about taking back control and freedom. Silly silly ideas. But ideas that move people to great things.

James musing on a Saturday morning.

Have a nice day (and I actually do mean that Jonathan).

I agree with those above who've praised your post, it neatly sums up the referendum voting situation. It didn't matter what the issue was, even if there was racism as some maintain, it was still about feelings on any issue considered.

I'm cynic enough to believe that neither Leave nor Remain are good options, one eventually the least worst.
.

 

[Woosh]

at least those idiots can be removed by the British people unlike the ones in Brussels. In all this I fail to understand why anyone would want to allow our country to be run by a foreign power. I have nothing against being friends and trading partners, but am opposed to being controlled by them

that's the nub of the problem. UK politics is incredibly tribal.
We imagine that we can remove the self serving idiots but in reality, can we?
We don't ever remove the two main parties that pass power between them: conservatives and Labour.
Can anyone give me a single example where rubbish PMs or even their rubbish ministers like Chris Grayling are actually removed.

 

[flecc]

In all this I fail to understand why anyone would want to allow our country to be run by a foreign power.

Correction, mutually run by all members, with a planned future of being one large democratic country.
.

 

[Zlatan]

that's the nub of the problem. UK politics is incredibly tribal.
We imagine that we can remove the self serving idiots but in reality, can we?
We don't ever remove the two main parties that pass power between them: conservatives and Labour.
Can anyone give me a single example where rubbish PMs or even their rubbish ministers like Chris Grayling are actually removed.

Blair got kicked out over his war. But I accept the point is valid.

 

[Woosh]

Correction, mutually run by all members, with a planned future of being one large democratic country.
.

Westminster still holds the right to make laws in this country, we only share a portion of our control.
To imagine that the bunch of idiots in Westminster can run the UK internal SM post brexit better than the EU wide SM is risky.

 

[Zlatan]

Correction, mutually run by all members, with a planned future of being one large democratic country.
.

In theory. Practice is showing that not to be case. (ie examine Luxenbourg world standing over last 25 years, that is no coincidence)

 

[Woosh]

Blair got kicked out over his war. But I accept the point is valid.

Blair did not want to return to Westminster.
He did not get kicked out, certainly not by the electorate.