Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Westminster still holds the right to make laws in this country, we only share a portion of our control.
To imagine that the bunch of idiots in Westminster can run the UK internal SM post brexit better than the EU wide SM is risky.

EU can only survive by eventually becoming Federal. Sovereignty for each nation must be lost some time down the line.
If you want that, as Flecc does, fine. If you want current situation to cintinue with shared governence you are sadly misinformed. EU will, infact must for economic reasons, become Federal State of Europe. I dont want that.

 

[Zlatan]

Blair did not want to return to Westminster.
He did not get kicked out, certainly not by the electorate.

Indirectly by electorate and he has expressed drsire to return. But we are going OT.
Fact is Woosh we can remove party from power if we really felt strongly.
Electorate could have all voted Lib Dem last GE if they felt strongly enough about remaining. Fact we didnt bother to is no reason to not keep the safeguard.

Notice approval ratings..

 

[flecc]

In theory. Practice is showing that not to be case. (ie examine Luxenbourg world standing over last 25 years, that is no coincidence)

That's immaterial though. Being such a tiny country, any advantage they gain has virtually no effect on the EU or its other members. It's like complaining about Junckers expenses. How much would each EU citizen receive if he didn't draw them?

And in any case, such issues are partly our own fault. If we'd taken a full co-operative part in the EU project and joined the eurozone we'd have been powerful enough to greatly influence the EU's conduct. Instead we've just stood on the sidelines sulking and demanding like a spoilt child.
.

 

[flecc]

Electorate could have all voted Lib Dem last GE if they felt strongly enough about remaining. Fact we didnt bother to is no reason to not keep the safeguard.

It's not a safeguard, the establishment always takes over and has its way and that's a true for the LibDems as any other party.

Remember the coalition?
.

 

[Woosh]

EU can only survive by eventually becoming Federal. Sovereignty for each nation must be lost some time down the line.
If you want that, as Flecc does, fine. If you want current situation to cintinue with shared governence you are sadly misinformed. EU will, infact must for economic reasons, become Federal State of Europe. I dont want that.

I am for a soft brexit, Norway style. I believe in the EU SM, not so much in CU.

 

[Zlatan]

It's not a safeguard, the establishment always takes over and has its way and that's a true for the LibDems as any other party.

Remember the coalition?
.

But thats now saying "our democracy does not work" so lets be part of a bigger one with less real influence. (at a guess UK represents 15% by population of EU) Not checked figures but you see point. Ie) Our democracy struggles with 70 milliin or so population so what makes you think EU's version is any better for the 1 billion or so Europeans. (again not sure of actual figures but you get point)
Its also generally recognised our model is more democratic than EU model.
Besides, I, m happy with our model. Not perfect but nothing ever will be. In essence its Remainers really wanting change. A change to EU governence and EU's patchy attempts at democracy. I like ours. I dont like an unnecessary and often drunk superflous layer of governance.
And yes the cost might not be much per person to fund private jets but lets apply that to worthy causes and not Junker flying in face of EU directives.
Woosh
Can you imagine a high ranking MEP resigning over poor approval ratings? It would never happen because once there they are omnipotent.

 

[flecc]

But thats now saying "our democracy does not work" so lets be part of a bigger one with less real influence. (at a guess UK represents 15% by population of EU) Not checked figures but you see point. Ie) Our democracy struggles with 70 milliin or so population so what makes you think EU's version is any better for the 1 billion or so Europeans. (again not sure of actual figures but you get point)
Its also generally recognised our model is more democratic than EU model.
Besides, I, m happy with our model. Not perfect but nothing ever will be. In essence its Remainers really wanting change. A change to EU governence and EU's patchy attempts at democracy. I like ours. I dont like an unnecessary and often drunk superflous layer of governance.

The EU's planned future is the same parliamentary democracy we have at present, not in any way different. The things you dislike are usually the temporary ones. For example Juncker leaving his five year term of office very soon this year.

And of course our democracy doesn't work, it's not democracy, it's an elective dictatorship which is why everyone is always so dissatisfied with it.
.

 

[Fingers]

That's immaterial though. Being such a tiny country, any advantage they gain has virtually no effect on the EU or its other members. It's like complaining about Junckers expenses. How much would each EU citizen receive if he didn't draw them?

And in any case, such issues are partly our own fault. If we'd taken a full co-operative part in the EU project and joined the eurozone we'd have been powerful enough to greatly influence the EU's conduct. Instead we've just stood on the sidelines sulking and demanding like a spoilt child.
.

But that is the very crux of the thin end of the wedge. And it applies throughout the entire EU.

Ahhh it doesn't matter it's a drop in the ocean. Look at the bigger picture. The problem is corruption is corruption and it festers. If it's happening at the top it will happen at the bottom.

One rotten apple..and if that apple is the most important one. The apple of Kellys eye.....

Well it doesn't take Nostrodamus to see where it ends.

 

[Zlatan]

The EU's planned future is the same parliamentary democracy we have at present, not in any way different. The things you dislike are usually the temporary ones. For example Juncker leaving his five year term of office very soon this year.

And of course our democracy doesn't work, it's not democracy, it's an elective dictatorship which is why everyone is always so dissatisfied with it.
.

I tend to agree with that but cant for life if me understand how you can see EU parliament as a step forward. It contains all faults our own does, plus a few more, and represents entire EU of which we represent a small anount. Whichever way you examine it we are ending up with less control once fully assimilated into EU.
If our system has faults, lets change them but dont jump into an essentially untried system already showing signs of undemoratic behaviour, sexism, racism, corruption waste and anti UK sentiment.(admittedly some deserved)
You are alledging that somehow we will have more control (as voters) moving to a system where UK by population represents at most 13%.
How does that work?
And just to remind you flecc. EU commisioners are appointed, not elected. (Including our friend)

 

[oldgroaner]

It's curious, the trolling does have a monotonous repetitive quality that suggests it may be paid for. wouldn't have thought an ebike site would attract this, and its a paradox, they're giving the thread hits and giving anyone who reads it a visceral glimpse of the mentality behind brexit

This thread has recorded over a million hits, bear that in mind, such numbers naturally attract parasites.

 

[oldgroaner]

Westminster still holds the right to make laws in this country, we only share a portion of our control.
To imagine that the bunch of idiots in Westminster can run the UK internal SM post brexit better than the EU wide SM is risky.

Worse that that, it is based purely on wishful thinking, when you look at how incompetent our Government and opposition actually are.

 

[oldgroaner]

I tend to agree with that but cant for life if me understand how you can see EU parliament as a step forward. It contains all faults our own does, plus a few more, and represents entire EU of which we represent a small anount. Whichever way you examine it we are ending up with less control once fully assimilated into EU.
If our system has faults, lets change them but dont jump into an essentially untried system already showing signs of undemoratic behaviour, sexism, racism, corruption waste and anti UK sentiment.(admittedly some deserved)
You are alledging that somehow we will have more control (as voters) moving to a system where UK by population represents at most 13%.
How does that work?
And just to remind you flecc. EU commisioners are appointed, not elected. (Including our friend)
View attachment 28372

Appointed are they? and who elects the Cabinet and Prime Minister here?
Who elects all the select committees and Quangos here?
Once again another spurious nonsensical argument from you

 

[oldgroaner]

The EU's planned future is the same parliamentary democracy we have at present, not in any way different. The things you dislike are usually the temporary ones. For example Juncker leaving his five year term of office very soon this year.

And of course our democracy doesn't work, it's not democracy, it's an elective dictatorship which is why everyone is always so dissatisfied with it.
.

You missed out the words corrupt and incompetent, flecc

 

[oldgroaner]

EU can only survive by eventually becoming Federal. Sovereignty for each nation must be lost some time down the line.
If you want that, as Flecc does, fine. If you want current situation to cintinue with shared governence you are sadly misinformed. EU will, infact must for economic reasons, become Federal State of Europe. I dont want that.

It will happen anyway so we would be far better off inside it than being a sort of "Cuba" offshore with no influence over events.
That has to be the biggest strategic error we have ever made, to neuter ourselves through cowardice.
What a totally stupid thing we have done!

 

[gray198]

Westminster still holds the right to make laws in this country, we only share a portion of our control.
To imagine that the bunch of idiots in Westminster can run the UK internal SM post brexit better than the EU wide SM is risky.

problem is they have not really had to run the country for years, instead relying on EU directives

 

[oyster]

Take your pick - Redwood or Clarke.

John Redwood says UK is losing sight of Brexit benefits
Ken Clarke responds to MP by saying Brexit dividend was always a complete myth

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/05/john-redwood-uk-brexit-benefits-ken-clarke

 

[Zlatan]

https://www.economist.com/special-report/2017/03/23/how-to-address-the-eus-democratic-deficit

Very good and unbiased article about point flecc and I were discussing before OG decided to be a troller.

 

[Fingers]

This thread has recorded over a million hits, bear that in mind, such numbers naturally attract parasites.

Lol. Remember when you used to think that was a million viewers!

So funny. Still makes me chuckle to this day.

Bless you.

 

[Woosh]

problem is they have not really had to run the country for years, instead relying on EU directives

after brexit, this country will be in the hand of the likes of Liam Fox, Chris Grayling, Jeremy Hunt, Gavin Williamson, David Davis, Dominic Raab and god forbid, Boris Johnson.
Give me the name of someone good brexiter that you would trust your money to.

 

[Zlatan]

after brexit, this country will be in the hand of the likes of Liam Fox, Chris Grayling, Jeremy Hunt, Gavin Williamson, David Davis, Dominic Raab and god forbid, Boris Johnson.
Give me the name of someone good brexiter that you would trust your money to.

Peter Hargreaves. He has most of mine already.