Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

There is a possibility that any process of re-joining will be extremely difficult to negotiate as we would almost certainly be demanding re-admittance under terms at least as favoutable as at present, and they might not be offered.

JC knows that and he holds the trump card at the moment.
If he goes for second referendum, we are likely to remain.
If he goes for no deal (basically do nothing, just wait for no deal brexit to damage the tories), he will more likely get a fresh election, hung parliament and TM's deal more likely.

YouGov has a poll:

 

[oldtom]

There is a possibility that any process of re-joining will be extremely difficult to negotiate as we would almost certainly be demanding re-admittance under terms at least as favoutable as at present, and they might not be offered.

Let's hope that doesn't happen as there is no way the EU will accede to a further discounted membership subscription from theUK.

No business manager would agree to such a deal after all the aggravation caused by the UK over the last 2 years + and the EU, unlike the UK, seems to have some pretty clued-up people administering their business.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

There is a very short video clip attached which I would suggest be watched (copy & paste) outside of this thread but it is very much to the point:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=586284588490774

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

There is a very short video clip attached which I would suggest be watched (copy & paste) outside of this thread but it is very much to the point:

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=586284588490774

Tom

Tom some good news - facebook video clips don't make the page jump in this version of the forum!

Bad news however - facebook is still evil... And Twitter is the devils playground...

It is refreshing to see the Luxembourg PM tell it like it is - brexit is a UK idea, not an EU idea. Just like many other faux/bad ideas expressed by leavers in this thread they all originate in the UK not in the EU.

 

[flecc]

Seriously? 'forecast has very much in common with the decade after the war'. What? Flecc. For you that's low. Have you any idea how much living standards have gone up since then? What on EARTH are you on? Nuts. You're nuts. Barmy. Crazy. To believe such things. How can you possibly twist your mind around to think that? Ah well. Never mind. Strictly's final was fun. Time for bed.

Of course I know how much living standards have gone up since then, reminder, I've lived through them all.

And there are many in this country whose living standards are little different even now, so not so far detached as you think.
.

 

[Danidl]

There is a possibility that any process of re-joining will be extremely difficult to negotiate as we would almost certainly be demanding re-admittance under terms at least as favoutable as at present, and they might not be offered.

The rules for admission to the EU are more stringent, and of course the major concession or recognition that the UK can withdraw A50 prior to 30th. March , lapses on that date. You could expect the Channel islands, and Gibraltar and sundry other items to appear in such negotiations. So I would suggest your use of the term "might" was classic understatement... Turkey could reasonably say that they are ahead in the que.

 

[Fingers]

Headline in Observer/Guardian:
Party activists pile pressure on Corbyn to back second vote
Labour leftwingers launch internal campaign for new referendum, but some senior figures fear policy shift could cost votes


View attachment 28156

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/dec/16/labour-activists-pressure-corbyn-second-vote-new-referendum

He’s become a cult.

He’s done nothing bar promote incompetent idiots to high shadow office.

He has no chance of winning a general election.

But he’s a nice guy. So that’s alright.

 

[Fingers]

There is a possibility that any process of re-joining will be extremely difficult to negotiate as we would almost certainly be demanding re-admittance under terms at least as favoutable as at present, and they might not be offered.

Fake news.

Leave your misery posting porn elsewhere please.

 

[Fingers]

The rules for admission to the EU are more stringent, and of course the major concession or recognition that the UK can withdraw A50 prior to 30th. March , lapses on that date. You could expect the Channel islands, and Gibraltar and sundry other items to appear in such negotiations. So I would suggest your use of the term "might" was classic understatement... Turkey could reasonably say that they are ahead in the que.

Another remain wet dream.

It’s very interesting reading your fantasies.

Lol. Your hatred is amusing.

 

[flecc]

Undoubtedly things would be difficult, but I cannot see that Europe would not want to continue trading with the UK, and I am sure that agreements will be reached,

This is the point I'm struggling to get Leavers to understand.

If we are still trading, and I agree we probably will be, that is not leaving the EU. It means we will still have to be subject to all EU standards, including new ones as they arrive. Parliament will still have to be passing them into UK law. It means we will still be subject to the ECJ. The continuation of our manufacturing which is "just in time" based for parts means an open cross channel border with zero delays on the trucks used, i.e. effectively a customs union and single market. And we will still be permanently paying into the EU for this, which is why Norway plus is being considered as a ready made package.

So a Brexit deal on those terms means all we lose are valuable bits, like access to the numerous science and medical projects, Galileo, our all important Services which is half our exports to the EU.

Essentially we have three options. Something like Norway plus for minimum ill effect to achieve a small reduction in what we pay. A cobbled together deal like the above or Theresa May's. Leave completely with no deal and suffer the severe consequences.

We cannot leave completely and retain EU benefits, as the EU has been saying from the outset. The world doesn't work that way, leave any club and one loses all the membership benefits.
.

 

[Fingers]

This is the point I'm struggling to get Leavers to understand.

If we are still trading, and I agree we probably will be, that is not leaving the EU. It means we will still have to be subject to all EU standards, including new ones as they arrive. Parliament will still have to be passing them into UK law. It means we will still be subject to the ECJ. The continuation of our manufacturing which is "just in time" based for parts means an open cross channel border with zero delays on the trucks used, i.e. effectively a customs union and single market. And we will still be permanently paying into the EU for this, which is why Norway plus is being considered as a ready made package.

So a Brexit deal on those terms means all we lose are valuable bits, like access to the numerous science and medical projects, Galileo, our all important Services which is half our exports to the EU.

Essentially we have three options. Something like Norway plus for minimum ill effect to achieve a small reduction in what we pay. A cobbled together deal like the above or Theresa May's. Leave completely with no deal and suffer the severe consequences.

We cannot leave completely and retain EU benefits, as the EU has been saying from the outset. The world doesn't work that way, leave any club and one loses all th membership benefits.
.

I guess this is what I find confusing about the true believers.

For me I want close ties with Europe. I want free access. I’m happy with free movement. But it’s strictly on a trade basis. I do not want an EU army. An EU budget dictated by faceless unelected civil servants.

We should be able to share science bits, Christ Galileo is mostly our tech anyway. But again this doesn’t need a separate government to achieve this.

We have the five eyes system of security that doesn’t need to have a separate government.

The EU is in the past. Can’t wait to leave.

 

[flecc]

why would we give grants to the Chinese. We should not be sending any money abroad after Brexit. All aid should be stopped while we get sorted out, but I don't suppose our leaders will do that. We will just keep borrowing money to give it to countries with their own space programmes

Now you are getting it. These same clowns are the ones who tell us we will do well on WTO terms after a No Deal Brexit.

We won't because they just haven't got what it takes to succeed, we don't have the right product in volume to succeed and we don't have low enough costs to succeed in the tough wide world.

Leavers complain about the EU's failings, but it's those very failings that enable us to trade successfully with them in their sheltered environment.
.

 

[Fingers]

Now you are getting it. These same clowns are the ones who tell us we will do well on WTO terms after a No Deal Brexit.

We won't because they just haven't got what it takes to succeed, we don't have the right product in volume to succeed and we don't have low enough costs to succeed in the tough wide world.

Leavers complain about the EU's failings, but it's those very failings that enable us to trade successfully with them in their sheltered environment.
.

That's it in a nutshell.

You see the EU as a crutch. A sheltered environment.

Lol. Absolutely spineless.

 

[Danidl]

I guess this is what I find confusing about the true believers.

For me I want close ties with Europe. I want free access. I’m happy with free movement. But it’s strictly on a trade basis. I do not want an EU army. An EU budget dictated by faceless unelected civil servants.

We should be able to share science bits, Christ Galileo is mostly our tech anyway. But again this doesn’t need a separate government to achieve this.

We have the five eyes system of security that doesn’t need to have a separate government.

The EU is in the past. Can’t wait to leave.

What we want we don't always get... I am very ambivalent towards an EU army,and the UK being within the EU would have been a protection against that. There is no such thing as free lunches, and all those freedoms you want have a price.
I assure you that EU civil servants, have faces and of course they are unelected, just as all your UK army,police, ambulance, navy, tax collectors are all unelected. But just as the UK ones are under the control of Parliament, so also are the unelected civil servants of the EU under Parliament control. It is to the UKs shame, that they have selected very poor representatives to the EU Parliament and commission.

 

[flecc]

For me I want close ties with Europe. I want free access. I’m happy with free movement. But it’s strictly on a trade basis. I do not want an EU army.

And we don't have to have an EU army since the EU cannot dictate that. Everything from the EU is optional, some of it via treaties we do not have to sign, most of it via laws we can opt out of or modify. Every law arriving has a period in which we can say no or ask for change, usually six months. Even the borderless aspect we haven't had to observe, as the Calais encampments showed. What we have from the EU we only have because our politicians have agreed.

An EU budget dictated by faceless unelected civil servants.

That is simply untrue, the EU Commission guiding the EU future are not civil servants, they are nominees from the 28 member states who have mostly been elected politicians in their countries. And anything the Commission recommends can be rejected by the European Parliament of elected members, and even when passed, rejected by member countries.
.

 

[Danidl]

That's it in a nutshell.

You see the EU as a crutch. A sheltered environment.

Lol. Absolutely spineless.

An excellent comment... If you want an unbridled capitalism,and cronyism with no protections for workers,the poorer, negligible health services, short brutish lives, there are plenty of places on earth to go. The EU sought a different path. Yes it is as sheltered environment, one in which there are investments in social capital and infrastructure. Rights for capital and rights to workers, increased mobility ,increased education and freedom of movement.
So it is a crutch...and even a beacon of light showing that it is possible for near neighbors to live together....

 

[Danidl]

And Fingers, As we all have a duty to respect facts... What aspects of the Galileo system were unique to the UK?. My understanding is that it has its roots in the US GPS system of 1973... .

 

[flecc]

I do not want an EU army.

Why is an EU army so wrong when we already have an EU NATO army that we are part of?

Wouldn't it be better to have one not directed by the USA into unnecessary wars elsewhere in the world?
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Seriously? 'forecast has very much in common with the decade after the war'. What? Flecc. For you that's low. Have you any idea how much living standards have gone up since then? What on EARTH are you on? Nuts. You're nuts. Barmy. Crazy. To believe such things. How can you possibly twist your mind around to think that? Ah well. Never mind. Strictly's final was fun. Time for bed.

I grew up during and after the war, and see many people in the same situation now that we were then.
You obviously need to get our more and take your own advice
"What on EARTH are you on? Nuts. You're nuts. Barmy. Crazy. To believe such things. How can you possibly twist your mind around to think that?"

 

[oldgroaner]

I guess this is what I find confusing about the true believers.

For me I want close ties with Europe. I want free access. I’m happy with free movement. But it’s strictly on a trade basis. I do not want an EU army. An EU budget dictated by faceless unelected civil servants.

We should be able to share science bits, Christ Galileo is mostly our tech anyway. But again this doesn’t need a separate government to achieve this.

We have the five eyes system of security that doesn’t need to have a separate government.

The EU is in the past. Can’t wait to leave.

How odd that you don't want an EU army yet voted to leave pretty much guaranteeing it would be formed and could well be used in a manner we don't approve of
Pretty stupid thing to do, wasn't it?
And this "Faceless nameless civil servants" is plain crap as we have always had them here anyway.