Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Only in the Telegraph can you find Oxymorons of this class
"
BBC's head-to-head TV debate will 'breach the concept of impartiality' unless a Brexiteer is included.
That should read a "RABID" Brexiteer surely?

 

[oldgroaner]

In the Express
"
Brexit SHOCK: Gove challenges Marr in FIERY clash – ‘Leave voters too THICK are they?’
MICHAEL Gove challenged those calling for a second referendum as “condescending” and claimed it shows they think Leave voters were “too thick” to understand what they were voting for.

Well Gove, Marr's response should have been as follows.

You got away with lying to them about Brexit back then, and now you are pushing a Brexit that isn't, and what you now say is actually accusing them that they are too thick to change their mind because you want to con them into something that they never voted for?

Bloody hypocrite!

 

[oldtom]

Whether you are an intelligent, humanitarian democrat (pro EU remain voter) or a completely imbecilic ignoramus and supporter of fascism, tax avoidance, war on unarmed people in far off lands plus having an innate hatred of all foreign people and being best described as a 'Brexidiot', this link is worth a watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=711&v=UYonSZ8s3_o

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Whether you are an intelligent, humanitarian democrat (pro EU remain voter) or a completely imbecilic ignoramus and supporter of fascism, tax avoidance, war on unarmed people in far off lands plus having an innate hatred of all foreign people and being best described as a 'Brexidiot', this link is worth a watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=711&v=UYonSZ8s3_o

Tom

There's nothing they say like an "Unbiassed opinion" of leave voters oldtom.
And to be fair that wasn't was it?

 

[oldtom]

NHS problems and what needs to be done…..

brexit-or-no-brexit-life-changing-medicines-already-aren-t-getting-through

Tom

 

[oldtom]

There's nothing they say like an "Unbiassed opinion" of leave voters oldtom.
And to be fair that wasn't was it?

It wasn't meant to be unbiased OG. Desperate situations require desperate measures! I do think my description of the anti-humanitarian, racist hordes was very accurate though, especially as I have never encountered even one who voted to leave the EU on anything other than racist grounds.

All those with fanciful, alternative reasons are simply liars - they voted to leave because they hate foreign people in the UK but they are in denial about it when asked why they voted leave.

Tom

 

[tillson]

This article is worth reading. It probably explains why she won’t spill the legal advice. Not that we needed an explanation, I think we knew anyway.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/selling-a-sellout-the-truth-about-the-pms-deal-with-brussels/

 

[Wicky]

This article is worth reading. It probably explains why she won’t spill the legal advice. Not that we needed an explanation, I think we knew anyway.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/selling-a-sellout-the-truth-about-the-pms-deal-with-brussels/

Very damning breakdown showing May is desperately trying to flog a pig in poke to all sides.

 

[Woosh]

that report exaggerates a a little by assuming that the EU actually do not want to negotiate an FTA after we leave and also, their interpretation of the backstop is also exaggerated.
The UK can always leave the temporary customs union if we join the EEA for example.
What we cannot do is to have a WTO or Canada deal and keep NI in the UK's customs zone. NI has been given a guarantee that it will remain in the same customs zone as the ROI as a consequence of signing up to the GFA.

 

[tillson]

that report exaggerates a a little by assuming that the EU actually do not want to negotiate an FTA after we leave and also, their interpretation of the backstop is also exaggerated.
The UK can always leave the temporary customs union if we join the EEA for example.
What we cannot do is to have a WTO or Canada deal and keep NI in the UK's customs zone. NI has been given a guarantee that it will remain in the same customs zone as the ROI as a consequence of signing up to the GFA.

I agree, it does exaggerate a few aspects, but I think the underlying sentiment of the article is about right. What May is trying to sell to the country is a worse situation than currently exists. There is no getting away from that.

The sensible way forward is to decide between leaving the EU without any trade deal or ongoing financial commitment, or to remain under our existing agreement. We know what remaining means because we have experienced it. We don’t know what leaving without any agreements in place will mean for us, because it has never happened. All we can do is predict and take an educated guess at the latter, but the problem of individual agendas, unwillingness to consider other’s view points, concealing of information and exaggeration creeps in. It’s very difficult to asses what is actually going on.

 

[flecc]

This article is worth reading. It probably explains why she won’t spill the legal advice. Not that we needed an explanation, I think we knew anyway.

https://briefingsforbrexit.com/selling-a-sellout-the-truth-about-the-pms-deal-with-brussels/

Bearing in mind that we've already under the misleadingly named Great Repeal Bill written all the EU laws we have into UK law, perhaps the whole handling of Brexit was secretly intended to keep us in the EU.

That was after all what the great majority of parliament and the British, American and European establishments wanted, and May's deal could deliver that.
.

 

[Woosh]

The sensible way forward is to decide between leaving the EU without any trade deal or ongoing financial commitment, or to remain under our existing agreement.

I can see the attraction of a clear choice.
However, a clear choice will make roughly 50% voters unhappy if we cancel brexit and probably more than that 50% if the UK leaves on a Canada or WTO deal.
I am for a gradual withdrawal without closing all the doors at once. Although most people will innitially be unhappy with a gradual withdrawal, the shock is bearable to all camps.

 

[Danidl]

"What May is trying to sell to the country is a worse situation than currently exists. There is no getting away from that."
Exactly correct Tilson
Unfortunately the rest of your analysis is more hope than fact.
In 4 months time, the UK is on schedule to leave the EU without any trade deal, citizens rights or indeed anything to show for two years .
The UK has no right to expect the status quo ante to continue. It cannot stay in the EU in any fashion , or have any trading or any engagement terms from 30th March next.

Unless one of the following happens.

1. It signs the Deal as offered ,and accepted by your PM.
2. The EU offers , by a unanimous decision of all remaining 27 heads of government, to allow the UK remain.
3. The ECJ makes a decision which says that the UK can unilaterally withdraw the A50 letter of intent. Of course that option, if even available would lapse on 29th March.

As very recent and public spats have shown, option 2 , is becoming less likely, .
An assumption that all will be well on 30th. March ,without one of the above is fantasy. The major advantage of the Deal, is that it does allow commerce, trade, existing agreements in the main, to continue and allows the UK remain close to the EU for possible re-integration.
Without it, planes will not take off from EU airports to UK destinations and vice versa, because there is no assurance or insurances, that they will be able to return.

 

[Fingers]

He may look like an idiot
And he walks off like an idiot!

The Donald strides off
The Argentinian President looks really impressed and the audience laugh.

Off topic

There is a separate thread about Trump.

Please stop spamming this thread.

Thank you.

 

[Woosh]

"What May is trying to sell to the country is a worse situation than currently exists. There is no getting away from that."
Exactly correct Tilson
Unfortunately the rest of your analysis is more hope than fact.
In 4 months time, the UK is on schedule to leave the EU without any trade deal, citizens rights or indeed anything to show for two years .
The UK has no right to expect the status quo ante to continue. It cannot stay in the EU in any fashion , or have any trading or any engagement terms from 30th March next.

Unless one of the following happens.

1. It signs the Deal as offered ,and accepted by your PM.
2. The EU offers , by a unanimous decision of all remaining 27 heads of government, to allow the UK remain.
3. The ECJ makes a decision which says that the UK can unilaterally withdraw the A50 letter of intent. Of course that option, if even available would lapse on 29th March.

As very recent and public spats have shown, option 2 , is becoming less likely, .
An assumption that all will be well on 30th. March ,without one of the above is fantasy. The major advantage of the Deal, is that it does allow commerce, trade, existing agreements in the main, to continue and allows the UK remain close to the EU for possible re-integration.
Without it, planes will not take off from EU airports to UK destinations and vice versa, because there is no assurance or insurances, that they will be able to return.

your analysis is not entirely correct.

TM still has enough time to change the political declaration enough to get hard brexiters and the DUP to support her deal. What is required? a Canada FTA instead of her deal which is in between Canada and EEA and to allow the future of the backstop to rest with the NI Assembly in case the rest of the UK wants to leave the CU.

 

[oldgroaner]

Off topic

There is a separate thread about Trump.

Please stop spamming this thread.

Thank you.

After you Tommy

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[oldgroaner]

I can see the attraction of a clear choice.
However, a clear choice will make roughly 50% voters unhappy if we cancel brexit and probably more than that 50% if the UK leaves on a Canada or WTO deal.
I am for a gradual withdrawal without closing all the doors at once. Although most people will innitially be unhappy with a gradual withdrawal, the shock is bearable to all camps.

Why?

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

 

[oldtom]

perhaps the whole handling of Brexit was secretly intended to keep us in the EU.

I have wondered that myself at various junctures over the last two years.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

Why?

Sent from my Moto G (5) using Tapatalk

it's just my point of view OG.

 

[Danidl]

your analysis is not entirely correct.

TM still has enough time to change the political declaration enough to get hard brexiters and the DUP to support her deal. What is required? a Canada FTA instead of her deal which is in between Canada and EEA and to allow the future of the backstop to rest with the NI Assembly in case the rest of the UK wants to leave the CU.

There are two documents circulating at present. A Deal and a proposal. The Deal is about the facts of withdrawal. The proposal is more aspirational. The HoC is required to vote on the DEAL. on 11 Dec.
Tilsons post was about the Deal.
The Deal exists, it will not be re negociated by the EU inside a 4 month window, if ever. So believing that it may, is wishful thinking
As before I have no wish to engage in internal UK political matters,so what nuances British Politicians put on various aspects of the prospectus is an internal matter. At this moment in time, the proposal is fluid and aspirational.