Brexit, for once some facts.

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

JC cannot do that, Labour will lose a lot of seats, even in London.

Do you need someone following you around with a fact check button?... I'd say at least 20% of what you post is simply nonsense.

This from literally last week, shows that you're wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/29/labour-mps-fear-brexit-voters-unfounded-study

 

[ianboydsnr]

Once again, I was speaking of the Brexiter view of total sovereignty which appears to include trade agreements, not my view at all.

However, the UK parliament cannot just refuse to accept what it has signed up to without serious consequences, and that's not just trade agreements. There's UN and EU rules, the ECJ and the International Court of Justice, plus international projects and committments. They all limit our freedoms.
.

Maybe it would be more helpful, if you only posted your views and not guess at what you think others views are, they can express their own views, that way it’s a little easier for us thicko’s to understand and respond.

 

[Woosh]

Do you need someone following you around with a fact check button?... I'd say at least 20% of what you post is simply nonsense.

This from literally last week, shows that you're wrong.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/may/29/labour-mps-fear-brexit-voters-unfounded-study

so tell me how many seats Labour would lose if JC supports a new EU referendum?
How many would they lose if Labour is the party to reverse brexit?

Let me tell you: at least one out of 3 traditional Labour voters voted to leave.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

so tell me how many seats Labour would lose if JC supports a new EU referendum?
How many would they lose if Labour is the party to reverse brexit?

Let me tell you: at least one out of 3 traditional Labour voters voted to leave.

I can't tell you anything... but I can have some guesses.

How many seats... 0

but let me reply to your question with a question.

The referendum was a binary choice, a future election wouldn't be. So if you're a traditional labour voter with labour values, you may well have voted leave, but that isn't going to make you suddenly want to vote tory is it?

If labour come out as pro remain, the leave vote will go back to being split UKIP / Conservative and Labour will get in, possibly with a Lib Dem / SNP back government?

 

[flecc]

Maybe it would be more helpful, if you only posted your views and not guess at what you think others views are, they can express their own views, that way it’s a little easier for us thicko’s to understand and respond.

No need for that sort of response. I wasn't guessing, Brexiters have made their views very clear and continue to do so daily in the media. My post that kicked this off was perfectly clear, but to make it more clear:

I quoted Frank Field's statement in that post in which he made his anti EU Brexit views very clear. So the sovereignty view I was commenting on that could not be enjoyed was the well publicised Brexit one.

That was entirely in context, but perhaps you didn't read the quote, only my comment on it?
.

 

[ianboydsnr]

it's the least cost version of all the brexit versions.
Reversing brexit: the conservatives cannot do that, they would split if they try.
JC cannot do that, Labour will lose a lot of seats, even in London.
Only a coalition government can do that, by blaming the other partner or partners forcing them to do that. The probability of LibDems winning more than a couple of seats at the next GE is very small, so such a coalition is very unlikely.
Would a soft brexit work for a generation or more?
Quite possibly. If the EU somehow manages to reform FOM and prosper (ie bringing the income level of all the new members to EU average of around 1,200 Euros a month take home pay per person), then it's easy to rejoin the EU from a soft brexit. If not, then soft brexit is still the best solution.

The cheapest cost is absolutely no Brexit,

I personally think that hanging your hat on a soft Brexit in the hope that we rejoin is nieve, once we are out, France,Germany and Italy will use our inability to change or block EU laws to their own advantage, making Britain at a great disadvantage, that will have the opposite effect of driving us to rejoin, Britain has been good at combining with smaller EU members to change and block and include exemptions,

Plus of course to rejoin means a whole new raft of commitments, like the Euro, borrowing limits, more back up for the eurozone, much of which we didn’t care for before,

No best to just stay in.

 

[flecc]

No best to just stay in.

Absolutely.
.

 

[ianboydsnr]

No need for that sort of response. I wasn't guessing, Brexiters have made their views very clear and continue to do so daily in the media. My post that kicked this off was perfectly clear, but to make it more clear:

I quoted Frank Field's statement in that post in which he made his anti EU Brexit views very clear. So the sovereignty view I was commenting on that could not be enjoyed was the well publicised Brexit one.

That was entirely in context, but perhaps you didn't read the quote, only my comment on it?
.

Mr Field made no statements on pedelecs, you quoted someone else quoting a very small part of a newspaper article Mr Field wrote in the Express newspaper, which seemed to me more pro Britain than anti EU, though he could be anti EU, but that’s up to him, so I didnt read the quote, instead I found the article and read it fully.

 

[flecc]

Mr Field made no statements on pedelecs, you quoted someone else quoting a very small part of a newspaper article Mr Field wrote in the Express newspaper, which seemed to me more pro Britain than anti EU, though he could be anti EU, but that’s up to him, so I didnt read the quote, instead I found the article and read it fully.

Thank you for making it clear that you are only looking for an argument.
.

 

[Woosh]

No best to just stay in.

go to sleep for 5 years and wake up when 3 millions old folks have died and replaced by 3 millions young voters then you may get to see it.

 

[ianboydsnr]

Thank you for making it clear that you are only looking for an argument.
.

No argument, a simple statement of fact, nothing more

 

[ianboydsnr]

go to sleep for 5 years and wake up when 3 millions old folks have died and replaced by 3 millions young voters then you may get to see it.

That argument is a weak hypothetical one, Not based on anything other than speculation, and is as much as likely to go the other way, but you knew that right.

 

[flecc]

go to sleep for 5 years and wake up when 3 millions old folks have died and replaced by 3 millions young voters then you may get to see it.

How many times must I post that this is not true. A huge proportion of the old know only too well how the UK was failing before we joined the Common Market and are firmly Remainers as a result. This thread has a number of us.

One only had to follow the TV images of the Brexit win celebrations to be aware that it was a very wide range of the middle years who were delighted. The same was true in more detailed examinations of peoples views before and after the referendum.

At the outset many in the media made an assumption that it would be the old who would have what they perceived to be traditional views on sovereignty and its desirability. As a result that seems to have become a received wisdom without any evidence in support.

We'd have to wait a whole lot longer than 5 years for them to die for a change to happen. The change will only come about sooner if they realise the mistake they've made.
.

 

[ianboydsnr]

How many times must I post that this is not true. A huge proportion of the old know only too well how the UK was failing before we joined the Common Market and are firmly Remainers as a result. This thread has a number of us.

One only had to follow the TV images of the Brexit win celebrations to be aware that it was a very wide range of the middle years who were delighted. The same was true in more detailed examinations of peoples views before and after the referendum.

At the outset many in the media made an assumption that it would be the old who would have what they perceived to be traditional views on sovereignty and its desirability. As a result that seems to have become a received wisdom without any evidence in support.

We'd have to wait a whole lot longer than 5 years for them to die for a change to happen. The change will only come about sooner if they realise the mistake they've made.
.

I can’t really argue with that.

 

[Woosh]

How many times must I post that this is not true.

if it is as you said, the will of the people should be now to remain, TM and JC would have called for reversing brexit already.

 

[ianboydsnr]

if it is as you said, the will of the people should be now to remain, TM and JC would have called for reversing brexit already.

I think if they could do that without any repercussions then they would,
Though I don’t think that the government has the stomach to watch middle age protesters being clubbed by the police on national tv, you know, like what happened over the poll tax, and that could be a real possibility,

What I do know, is that there will be no winners, only losers and big losers,

 

[flecc]

if it is as you said, the will of the people should be now to remain, TM and JC would have called for reversing brexit already.

TM has nailed her colours to the mast and can't easily change from "Brexit means Brexit" now.

JC is probably being canny in not making his view too clear, knowing the weight of Brexit support among Labour voters.

But I agree that the 4% vote margin to leave the EU may no longer exist. I'm sure many are heartily sick of the subject and would like it to go away.
.

 

[Woosh]

the vast majority of people won't be much affected economically by brexit. Export/import companies are and they don't vote. There is no reason for individuals to change the way they vote.
Perversely, I stand to benefit from a hard brexit.

 

[Woosh]

TM has nailed her colours to the mast and can't easily change from "Brexit means Brexit" now.

yes, she can.
Sack BJ for a start. The vote will go her way.

 

[oldtom]

I personally don’t agree with the term hard or soft Brexit, we should either stay in fully by terminating article 50, or leave completely.

It has been patently clear since the referendum result that those are the only two options - anything else isn't really 'brexit'.

Tom