Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Is there anyone out there that can put forward a good reason for continuing with Brexit that actually is anything more than selling the nation down the river to benefit a small elite?

I know there isn't one. Since any gain in sovereignty is apocryphal, freedom of movement will continue and we will still be conforming to most EU rules in order to trade, there is only one proposition left, that it will enable worldwide trading that hasn't been possible up until now.

But that is a lie as I demonstrated in this post
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[Kudoscycles]

A Conservative MP (Leaver) on the TV this morning said that if we stayed in the customs union then we would have to abide by EU standards but as Chukka pointed out even if we leave the customs union we will still have to abide by EU standards if we want to sell to them.
Obvious comment but nobody seems to state it.
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't think it will seek to re-enter for some time, may be a generation, but in the mean time, the EU is still its best friend and partner in the whole world.

The truth is it will not "seek" to rejoin the EU. but will simply be absorbed by the EU Superstate at a time, date and under the terms it dictates.
We have literally turned a once important nation into a second Cuba in the shadow of a burgeoning superpower.
How could we resist if they decided to put trade sanctions on us?

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't think it will seek to re-enter for some time, may be a generation, but in the mean time, the EU is still its best friend and partner in the whole world.

Sadly in much the same way the USA is supposed to be..no friend at all

 

[Woosh]

as Chukka pointed out even if we leave the customs union we will still have to abide by EU standards if we want to sell to them.

We are not going to have a hard brexit. If you ask an average Brit if he wants to eat GMO food, the answer is no.

 

[flecc]

If you ask an average Brit if he wants to eat GMO food, the answer is no.

Ignorance is bliss. Almost all the food they eat already is genetically modified.
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[Danidl]

There was an interesting exchange apparently between this Mogg person and a Parson person on one of the weekend shows.. the exchange concluded that the Irish have been undermining the British for 100 years , to which the Moggs person, indicating his superior grasp of history , indicated that it was 1000, .. the subtext being what a shower of ingrates, who objected to being invaded.... Actually the timeframe for the overall conquest dates from Elizabeth 1 onwards. With significant results post 1640
But anyway the following poll indicates what the ingrates in the RoI feel....

majority of 92% of Irish people think the country should remain in the European Union.

That is according to a new EM Ireland/Red C poll, which also found people split over whether Brexit makes a united Ireland more likely.

The majority of Irish people believe Brexit is a mistake - but 44% agree and 44% disagree that it makes a united Ireland more likely, with 12% saying they don't know.

Those under 35 years of age are most inclined to say that Brexit makes a united Ireland more likely, while in the over-35s category only 39% agree that it is more likely.

When asked about the UK government's red lines in the Brexit negotiations on leaving the EU Single Market and Customs Union, 73% of people in Ireland said that the UK should remain in both, rising to 83% amongst farmers.

But for the first time support for Ireland remaining in the EU has jumped to over 90%.
The annual survey of Irish attitudes to the EU also indicates growing support for Irish involvement in increased EU defence and security cooperation.

Noelle O'Connell, executive director of EM Ireland, said: "People are very clear that leaving the EU would not be in Ireland's interests.

"However, there is understandable uncertainty about what changes Brexit will bring to Ireland, the border and the Ireland-UK trade relationship in the long term."

Only 11% of respondents think that Ireland should leave the EU, given that the UK voted to leave.

This shows a steep decline from 2013, when support for Ireland leaving the EU in the event of Brexit was at 30%.

On the issue of defence and neutrality, 59% agree Ireland should be part of increased EU defence and security cooperation.

This shows an increase of 2% since April 2017, before Ireland signed up to PESCO.

The poll was conducted on the 15th to the 21st of March among a representative sample of 1,000 people aged 18 and over.

 

[oyster]

Boris Johnson, the Foreign Secretary, has launched a public assault on one of Theresa May’s proposals for a customs partnership after Brexit as ‘crazy’ in a major intervention.

Perhaps to distract from his futile attempt to get USA not to withdraw from the Iran deal?

 

[oldtom]

We have literally turned a once important nation into a second Cuba in the shadow of a burgeoning superpower.

I had never thought of it in those terms but that's pretty close to how things may pan out, I think.

The greater Germany, as the EU will start to look like, might welcome us back one day, I suppose, especially if they ever want to re-establish their royal heritage.........no, I don't think so either!

Tom

 

[tommie]

the exchange concluded that the Irish have been undermining the British for 100 years , to which the Moggs person, indicating his superior grasp of history , indicated that it was 1000, .. the subtext being what a shower of ingrates, who objected to being invaded.

C`mon Dan, get real..

If it hadn`t been for the `invaders` as you call them bringing in a certain civilisation and modernisation to the unruly natives you`d still be jumping on a donkey and cart bringing in turf from the aul bog!

Certainly there would not be a Raleigh Motus in sight!

The native Irish centuries back weren`t exactly at the cutting edge of technology, modernisation, liberty, democracy, longevity and quality of life.


Vikings?
Normans?
Huguenots?
and latterly the British

The prosperity or otherwise of the Republic of Ireland will and always has been in the hands of others - isn`t that why right now you`re bending over to Barnier, Tusk et al, in fear they`ll leave you high and dry??

 

[Danidl]

C`mon Dan, get real..

If it hadn`t been for the `invaders` as you call them bringing in a certain civilisation and modernisation to the unruly natives you`d still be jumping on a donkey and cart bringing in turf from the aul bog!

Certainly there would not be a Raleigh Motus in sight!

The native Irish centuries back weren`t exactly at the cutting edge of technology, modernisation, liberty, democracy, longevity and quality of life.


Vikings?
Normans?
Huguenots?
and latterly the British

The prosperity or otherwise of the Republic of Ireland will and always has been in the hands of others - isn`t that why right now you`re bending over to Barnier, Tusk et al, in fear they`ll leave you high and dry??

.. I did suspect that that would flush you out...
The only difference between all the afore mentioned and the last was that they were not hypocritical about it. They knew they were engaged in conquest , rapine, and loot. . The Huguenots an honourable exception.
The assumption that we were a benighted community until the paternal graces of your mainland does not bear scrutiny. For many centuries, the population and wealth of Ireland rivaled England. , It is only post Tudor that the pendulum swung very far one way.... Our histories were shared,. Recently I was down in Gowran in Kilkenny and their local history records the campaign of Edward the Bruce , brother to Robert,
But you are very much correct, Ireland's trade with the rest of Europe, including Britain, was and is the basis of our prosperity. Prior to the growth of British Empire, much trade between our western seaboard went direct to mainland Europe. The major tribes of Galway were famous as international merchants.
To put England's benevolence in context, the reduction in the Irish population as a result of the great famine, was almost as large as the number of jewish deaths in the WW2. But whereas that was over an entire continent, the famine was localised into a single country. .. Now the English did not use gas chambers or deliberately kill , but they had the responsibility and they failed. That is not a long time ago.. if your age is about the same as mine, your great grandparents might , and certainly their parents would have been survivors.

 

[oldgroaner]

Jolly fun in the Express
"
'The UK would lose control FOREVER’: Anger over EU plot to tighten grip on member states
STAYING in the European Union would subject Britain to ever more Brussels control as the bloc plots to tighten its grip on member states, new analysis has shown.

The sheer nonsense of these people is breathtaking, and no doubt these voices were heard in the thirty odd separate German speaking states before they merged in Germany.

What is happening in Europe is inevitable and we could have been a major partner, not a beggar sheltering from the rain in the doorway begging for scraps

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Guardian
"
May forced to give MPs single market vote after shock defeat
More than 80 Labour peers defy whip on amendment calling for vote on EEA membership
MPs will have a vote on remaining in the European Economic Area – effectively a vote on the single market – after a shock defeat for the government in the Lords.

It means the Brexit strategy of both Theresa May and Jeremy Corbyn has been blown apart in the past 24 hours.

The rebel Labour amendment in the Lords opened the prospect of a Commons vote on the EEA – a less stringent version of the single market – after 83 Labour peers voted against the party whip.

Chuka Umunna, the Labour MP who co-chairs a pro-European Commons committee with the Conservative Anna Soubry, said the leadership would now have to come off the fence and make it clear where it stood.

“The time for constructive ambiguity is over – our members and our voters will be delighted with this clear signal that we will not go along with this Tory Brexit,” he said.

 

[oyster]

What is happening in Europe is inevitable

That is a fundamental which is rarely stated.

Our ability to stand up against the companies the size and power of the largest in the USA, China, and elsewhere is minimal. If we took one item of current interest - autonomous vehicles. Once some major countries accept them - from, say, Uber and Waymo - our ability to refuse them dwindles by the day.

It is only as a player, hopefully a major player, in a significant block, that we can insist on higher standards. If we had to take whatever they produce, why, the in-car display would be in mm-dd-yyyy format!

 

[oldtom]

Is there anyone out there that can put forward a good reason for continuing with Brexit that actually is anything more than selling the nation down the river to benefit a small elite?

That's far too difficult a question for anyone on my pay band - can you perhaps ask one on football and send that question to Jeremy Vine for the 'Eggheads' show?

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Perhaps to distract from his futile attempt to get USA not to withdraw from the Iran deal?

There can't be much left in the world of international diplomacy for the clown to fail in - any party leader with a moral compass within the bounds of normality would have sacked Johnson long ago.

That he remains in government reflects how scared Theresa May is that she is usurped by the extreme right and loses her grip on power, to be cast into the mists of obscurity along with the likes of Gordon Brown and Jim Callaghan.

'Between a rock and a hard place' doesn't even begin to cover May's deserved dichotomy now.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

it's kind of choosing between two unworkable customs solutions as far as frictionless trade is concerned. No wonder Barnier calls them 'magical thinking'.
Max Fac is just a doing nothing, lazy idea.
It is basic online submission - like we have already with customs declarations.
The only addition is 'trusted traders scheme' - our administration is already well known for its laissez faire approach with thousands working on ebay, amazon and gumtree sending grey and even fake import stuff all over the EU. Would anybody expect the EU to fall for that?
Customs partnership isn't much better. Our government pretends it is better than 'max fac' but it is still 'max fac' at its heart, customs forms for goods going to the EU are submitted online like 'max fac', hoping for the EU to be stupid enough not to see the need to check for conformity because the British is supposed to have done that.
The only way to retain frictionless trade is to stay in the SM. However, I don't think JC is ready to agree to support the SM membership.

 

[flecc]

It is only as a player, hopefully a major player, in a significant block, that we can insist on higher standards. If we had to take whatever they produce, why, the in-car display would be in mm-dd-yyyy format!

Not to mention kilometres there too.
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[flecc]

The only way to retain frictionless trade is to stay in the SM. However, I don't think JC is ready to agree to support the SM membership.

He will in due course, but rushing too fast into Remain territory isn't an option. He is as ever playing his cards slowly to hang onto his traditional supporters who are also mostly Brexiters.

Once the mess the Tories are making of Brexit is even more obvious and his supporters have got even more bored with the subject, he'll move further. There's plenty of time yet and meanwhile the House of Lords is doing his dirty work for him.
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[Danidl]

Jolly fun in the Express
"
'The UK would lose control FOREVER’: Anger over EU plot to tighten grip on member states
STAYING in the European Union would subject Britain to ever more Brussels control as the bloc plots to tighten its grip on member states, new analysis has shown.

The sheer nonsense of these people is breathtaking, and no doubt these voices were heard in the thirty odd separate German speaking states before they merged in Germany.

What is happening in Europe is inevitable and we could have been a major partner, not a beggar sheltering from the rain in the doorway begging for scraps

I find myself in agreement with that headline, not with the analysis, but with the headline.. I might have preferred had the analysis been along the lines , .. "UK will have no control over European destiny, " followed by the "UK strategy of running away and burying head in sand is shown to have limitations."