Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Very interesting developments in the battle over control of RT. On the one hand Ofcom is struggling to carry out many MPs wishes and revoke their license yet on the other Putin is struggling to control one of its directors.( He refused to hand over id codes so Russian govt attempted to close down facebook accounts...albeit unsuccessfully.)
Is RT the enemy within or the unbiased view ?
RT has breached many impartiality rules, always leaning..well we know which way.

But rather ironic when we consider the bias shown in many things from BBC and CNN ???

Spanish government claim and insist they have proof of RT's involvement in Catalan independence struggle ??

I know OG and Tom will be saying this is OT but consider the following...

"Policy & Research News

Kremlin media and Brexit

Digital agency 89up has presented a report of its research into the influence of Kremlin media and automated bots during the Brexit referendum. According to the report, the Kremlin’s mouthpieces, RT and Sputnik, produced anti-EU content on Twitter that had greater reach than the Vote Leave or Leave.EU campaigns. The influence of Russian bots was extensive as well. Their reach, according to 89up, was equivalent to 29% of the total reach of both the above-mentioned pro-Brexit campaigns on Twitter."

Food for thought...perhaps its not just Daily Mail /Express trying to influence us ???

 

[tillson]

I think this may find I'm in tune with Tillson's thinking about the qualities of the ugly woman masquerading as the Prime Minister of the UK while her party grandees conspire to find someone to replace her before the party life-support is switched off.

View attachment 24284

Tom

In terms of a PM, Theresa May is the worst thing that could ever have happened to the U.K. I can think of nothing that has not been damaged or destroyed as a result of her involvement. I can think of nothing significant that she has actually pledged to do and then gone on to deliver.

Her time at the Home Office was one of missed targets, alienation of her staff, the Police Service, Prison Officers, Border Agency, in fact every area that she touched resulted in damage and the people involved despising her. Generally, people are reluctant and sceptical regarding change, but they come to accept it in the end. However, on these occasions May was warned repeatedly from a wide variety of sources that she was wrong, but didn’t listen. Nearly all of the warnings have now materialised and this is why the resentment and loathing hasn’t gone away. It’s even evident in the Daily Fail reader’s comments section.

I think it’s time to accept that May isn’t sufficiently capable or talented to deliver Brexit. Her track record and performance todate indicates that she will fail, do lasting damage and alienate people. We don’t need to look far in order to see this happening right now. This makes her highly dangerous because I believe that she will stop at nothing in order to hide or distract attention from her inadequate ability to do her job. Nerve gas, bombing, plastic, knife crime, internet giants or the meaningless gender pay gap, it’s all chaff to throw us off the scent of the wounded and lame animal inside Number 10.

I still think Brexit could work out over the longer term, but I don’t think May is capable of overseeing and negotiating the process. Most of the people around her seem to be either lazy, blasé or worryingly jocular about the whole situation, so I can’t see a likely alternative. For these reasons, I believe it’s time to stop, remain in the EU, reset as much as we can and to have a long hard think. If nothing else, the last two years has reinforced the notion that what theses clowns state they can do, and reality, is not even in the same universe.

 

[flecc]

RT has breached many impartiality rules, always leaning..well we know which way.

But rather ironic when we consider the bias shown in many things from BBC and CNN ???

Exactly, they're nearly all as bad, with news reporting biased to what they perceive is their side. You might find it odd given my defence of Russia on some issues, but I never watch RT, despite sampling many news sites on major news items. Al Jazeera is much more reliable, perhaps the most reliable of all of them.
.

 

[Zlatan]

In terms of a PM, Theresa May is the worst thing that could ever have happened to the U.K. I can think of nothing that has not been damaged or destroyed as a result of her involvement. I can think of nothing significant that she has actually pledged to do and then gone on to deliver.

Her time at the Home Office was one of missed targets, alienation of her staff, the Police Service, Prison Officers, Border Agency, in fact every area that she touched resulted in damage and the people involved despising her. Generally, people are reluctant and sceptical regarding change, but they come to accept it in the end. However, on these occasions May was warned repeatedly from a wide variety of sources that she was wrong, but didn’t listen. Nearly all of the warnings have now materialised and this is why the resentment and loathing hasn’t gone away. It’s even evident in the Daily Fail reader’s comments section.

I think it’s time to accept that May isn’t sufficiently capable or talented to deliver Brexit. Her track record and performance todate indicates that she will fail, do lasting damage and alienate people. We don’t need to look far in order to see this happening right now. This makes her highly dangerous because I believe that she will stop at nothing in order to hide or distract attention from her inadequate ability to do her job. Nerve gas, bombing, plastic, knife crime, internet giants or the meaningless gender pay gap, it’s all chaff to throw us off the scent of the wounded and lame animal inside Number 10.

I still think Brexit could work out over the longer term, but I don’t think May is capable of overseeing and negotiating the process. Most of the people around her seem to be either lazy, blasé or worryingly jocular about the whole situation, so I can’t see a likely alternative. For these reasons, I believe it’s time to stop, remain in the EU, reset as much as we can and to have a long hard think. If nothing else, the last two years has reinforced the notion that what theses clowns state they can do, and reality, is not even in the same universe.

I more or less thought exactly same a while ago Tillson. I did vote to leave and like you still believe if handled properly could lead to more opportunities...but its become such a fiasco that if we had ref2 I,d now vote remain.
My only reservation about May, at least she tried and stepped into breach. The grovelling excuse for a pm before here ran away...
I blame Cameron and Osborn more than May. They offered country two options and only had planning for one.
Can you imagine what folk on a boat would think if I offered 2 destinations for them but jumped overboard when they chose one of them. Madness.
Sort of.." Well you,ve chosen , now you lot can get us there, but by the way I,m jumping ship"...Was doomed from that very announcement of Cameron's resignation.

 

[Woosh]

They offered country two options and only had planning for one.

they did not planned for anything.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

they did not planned for anything.

To be fair they didn't want to leave, so why should they plan? If my wife wanted to leave me, I wouldn't plan her future for her well maybe I would, but it certainly wouldn't be a plan she'd be happy with.

Oh, and in case you've not seen, this new development today.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/expat-can-sue-to-overturn-brexit-referendum-x7kbp5krf

 

[flecc]

My only reservation about May, at least she tried and stepped into breach. The grovelling excuse for a pm before here ran away...

I strongly disagree Zlatan.

Cameron was a committed remainer and campaigned hard for that. When it turned out he'd got this extremely important issue wrong he did the accepted honourable thing and resigned. To implement something this important that he didn't believe in would have been wrong in principle. It would also leave him open to accusations that he wouldn't try hard enough for a proper Brexit.

May was also a committed remainer who therefore also got it wrong. But then she did a very dishonourable thing by standing for election to PM, knowing she'd be implementing something she didn't believe in. She should have left the list of applicants for PM to the Brexiters who were standing, since they genuinely believed in the concept.
.

 

[Danidl]

I more or less thought exactly same a while ago Tillson. I did vote to leave and like you still believe if handled properly could lead to more opportunities...but its become such a fiasco that if we had ref2 I,d now vote remain.
My only reservation about May, at least she tried and stepped into breach. The grovelling excuse for a pm before here ran away...
I blame Cameron and Osborn more than May. They offered country two options and only had planning for one.
Can you imagine what folk on a boat would think if I offered 2 destinations for them but jumped overboard when they chose one of them. Madness.
Sort of.." Well you,ve chosen , now you lot can get us there, but by the way I,m jumping ship"...Was doomed from that very announcement of Cameron's resignation.

Zathlan, I am pleased that you have, belatedly perhaps, accepted that Brexit in the terms currently available is a bad idea. Where I part company is that, in my opinion, irrespective of the quality of the leadership, and even the time frame it was always going to be a bad idea.
If as being currently mooted, the DUP, were in defiance of UK electral law by funding , Cambridge Analytics and also in providing extra monies for the newspaper wrapper in England, on the eve of the referendum, would that invalidate the referendum??

 

[tommie]

Err..... but it`s ok for the government to spend the tax payers money, £9million of it on leaflets to every home setting out the case for Remaining in the EU??

 

[oldtom]

Err..... but it`s ok for the government to spend the tax payers money, £9million of it on leaflets to every home setting out the case for Remaining in the EU??

Tom

 

[flecc]

Err..... but it`s ok for the government to spend the tax payers money, £9million of it on leaflets to every home setting out the case for Remaining in the EU??

It certainly is very unfair, but unfortunately also fully defensible.

The grounds being that they were the elected government, that was government policy, also the opposition's policy, supported by the 1975 referendum and both being voted into power in subsequent general elections following the Maastricht Treaty admission into the EU.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

In my Humble opinion Brexit has Four equally enormous flaws

1. History is against groups Fragmenting rather than growing larger
2. The Westminster Flying Circus does not represent, and is incompetent to represent the best interests of the Public, and I apply that caveat to the whole lot, no matter the Party they represent.
3. The Media, including the Press, Broadcasting and manipulators of the social media act like rabid dogs in pursuit of anti social agendas bought and paid for the ruling Elites, both Corporate and oligarchs.
4. This country scrapes by with Financial swindles and a Foreign owned economy that Parasites off the EU

It really wouldn't have mattered who was at the helm after the Titanic had hit the iceberg, would it?

Nor does it matter a "Tinker's cuss" who is PM. The result will be inevitable
Social injustice and hardhip followed by trouble.

In the same way this First past the post political system of ours is so corrupt as to longer be seen as fit for purpose.

No political party can do other than make Brexit work for a small section of the population to the detriment of the rest.

It is simply a matter of time before we enter the EU again

 

[oldgroaner]

It certainly is very unfair, but unfortunately also fully defensible.

The grounds being that they were the elected government, that was government policy, also the opposition's policy, supported by the 1975 referendum and both being voted into power in subsequent general elections following the Maastricht Treaty admission into the EU.
.

Which is rather different than Bribing a party of nut cases for their support

 

[flecc]

In my Humble opinion Brexit has Four equally enormous flaws

1. History is against groups Fragmenting rather than growing larger
2. The Westminster Flying Circus does not represent, and is incompetent to represent the best interests of the Public, and I apply that caveat to the whole lot, no matter the Party they represent.
3. The Media, including the Press, Broadcasting and manipulators of the social media act like rabid dogs in pursuit of anti social agendas bought and paid for the ruling Elites, both Corporate and oligarchs.
4. This country scrapes by with Financial swindles and a Foreign owned economy that Parasites off the EU

It really wouldn't have mattered who was at the helm after the Titanic had hit the iceberg, would it?

Nor does it matter a "Tinker's cuss" who is PM. The result will be inevitable
Social injustice and hardhip followed by trouble.

In the same way this First past the post political system of ours is so corrupt as to longer be seen as fit for purpose.

No political party can do other than make Brexit work for a small section of the population to the detriment of the rest.

It is simply a matter of time before we enter the EU again

The biggest flaw of all was named in the conclusion of a very long discussion between my brother and I well over a decade ago.

Our conclusion was that the integration with the EU had gone so far back then that leaving the EU was a practical impossibility. With more than a decade of further integration since, it's even more impossible.

That is why the negotiations are progressing so badly, both parties are discussing completion of something that isn't realistically possible with satisfaction for either, let alone both. It wouldn't matter who was in power or who was conducting the negotiations on each side, failure to achieve a true Brexit will be the result.

Abandoning the talks, suspending article 50 and putting the whole matter on hold for long term consideration as to viability would be the best outcome now.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

As we inch towards 30 thousand posts time to look back and I maintain that brexit is and always was about xenophobia. The UK, Hungary, Poland, northern Italy, Austria, etc all in the same boat - fear of others.

My news feed said earlier that the EU had received over 570 thousand refugees, the majority from Syria, in 2017. That is 0.11% of the EU population, hardly being "overrun"...

 

[Woosh]

My news feed said earlier that the EU had received over 570 thousand refugees, the majority from Syria, in 2017. That is 0.11% of the EU population, hardly being "overrun"...

I rode to the market (in France) this morning. The only 'immigrants' were the few that sell couscous, paella and vietnamese spring rolls.
Contrast that crowd with my local Sainsbury's supermarket's (practically on the doorstep of our shop) on an average day, 2 of 5 speak Russian or Polish or an Eastern European language.

 

[anotherkiwi]

France is a big country...

 

[Woosh]

France is a big country...

France did/does rather well out of the European Union compared to the UK.

 

[anotherkiwi]

And has a migrant population of about 7.6% of the total population.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_France

Oh and 30,000

 

[flecc]

Contrast that crowd with my local Sainsbury's supermarket's (practically on the doorstep of our shop) on an average day, 2 of 5 speak Russian or Polish or an Eastern European language.

And most of that 2 out of 5 also speak at least some English.

I wonder how many of the 3 out of 5 English speakers also speak Russian or an Eastern European language?
.