Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

A future where the town centre is populated by showrooms, coffee shops and a few chemists and newsagents.?

Government funding cuts for pharmacy services is already resulting in many of them them shutting. One example:

27 Oct 2017 - LloydsPharmacy will cease trading in approximately 190 stores in England, an official document leaked to Twitter confirms. The document was reportedly sent to all branches today.

So not even chemists taking up so many shops.

You didn't mention estate agents and they still seem able to afford the shop rents, despite now being little more than a charitable service providing displays of properties no-one can afford to buy any more.
.

 

[Wicky]

Precisely, "in relation the rest of the world" as you say, the Western view.

Don't be daft all these countries i.e. Cuba Iran, Vietnam, China, Uzbekistan Azerbaijan, Republic of Moldova, Bulgaria Georgia Hungary, Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, Slovenia, Soviet Union etc., recoginised Ukrainian independence in 1991/92 and that's where the borders were drawn (maps were drawn in atlases) and signed off - not all are Western - so why keep repeating that somehow Ukraine somehow 'stole' territory from Russia.

 

[Zlatan]

When people stop coming into the shop, the retailer may well think that his prices are out of line, but he she might also realise that the customer just has less disposable income and are choosing to use it for literally bread and butter items. This is particularly the case when they have had salary increases less than inflation. And UK consumers have had a currency shift of negative 10% to 20%?? or so over the last two years.
Paradoxically, some luxury's such as coffee shop takings and apparently lipstick sales go up. Little compensations to make up for the more expensive luxuries foregone. When Ireland had our massive crash in 2008, the most immediate visible sign, along with the immediate reduction in the number of cranes in operation, was the reduction in the number of blondes in the workplace. Being blonde except for the natural few is a high maintenance and cost activity.

I see your point but with all respect to KTM he is representing a system that has worked out how to charge between 2 and 5 thousand pounds for a push bike.(As have most big brands)
Pedelecs are a luxury item, and KTM about as luxury as you can get within a group of luxury items..The likely market will be unaffected by even a 20% pay rise, they would simply buy a cheaper make ?

As I said before, if you walk into Ferrari show room and cant afford one, you go to Porsche and probably end up in the Audi one. In this type of market people just change allegiances in hardening times.

The industry I know about talked about massive rises in price, we,ve only seen them in isolated cases which in every case have been discounted to almost last years prices by now. ( that board I mentioned was advertised at £1800 6 months ago,few paid that.)
Not really fair to comment and there probably are those that are struggling but I,ve not really seen much increase in cost of living, nothing like that mentioned on here by all those folk on good salaries and pensions, some living abroad spending there hard earned cash in Spanish supermarkets and bars.
I,m hoping the rise in price we have witnessed in Windsurf kit ( and other luxury items) will foster some Uk based firm to start making the stuff..We used to have a thriving board ( and bike) industry. All the big companies now French/ German/ Swedish based , with manufacture in far east. Why is almost nothing UK based ? Whatever happens, in or out the EU, that must change.
And it could be argued that economy cant be that bad when we dont see a rise in Pedelec sales. Folk could be replacing their cars with them???

 

[oldgroaner]

I see your point but with all respect to KTM he is representing a system that has worked out how to charge between 2 and 5 thousand pounds for a push bike.(As have most big brands)
Pedelecs are a luxury item, and KTM about as luxury as you can get within a group of luxury items..The likely market will be unaffected by even a 20% pay rise, they would simply buy a cheaper make ?

As I said before, if you walk into Ferrari show room and cant afford one, you go to Porsche and probably end up in the Audi one. In this type of market people just change allegiances in hardening times.

The industry I know about talked about massive rises in price, we,ve only seen them in isolated cases which in every case have been discounted to almost last years prices by now. ( that board I mentioned was advertised at £1800 6 months ago,few paid that.)
Not really fair to comment and there probably are those that are struggling but I,ve not really seen much increase in cost of living, nothing like that mentioned on here by all those folk on good salaries and pensions, some living abroad spending there hard earned cash in Spanish supermarkets and bars.
I,m hoping the rise in price we have witnessed in Windsurf kit ( and other luxury items) will foster some Uk based firm to start making the stuff..We used to have a thriving board ( and bike) industry. All the big companies now French/ German/ Swedish based , with manufacture in far east. Why is almost nothing UK based ? Whatever happens, in or out the EU, that must change.
And it could be argued that economy cant be that bad when we dont see a rise in Pedelec sales. Folk could be replacing their cars with them???

You haven't seen much change in the increase in the cost of living?probably not among the middle class, come to good old Hull, that bastion of Brexit Voters, where things they are a changing.
The Middle class here now shop in Aldi and Lidl

Those in work (so called) but on limited and fixed hours contracts stagger to work while suffering from the Flu, on subsistence level wages and shop in the much expanded pound shops that now carry a huge line of short dated and or time expired groceries.

You don't live in a real world, do you, so your outlook is much rosier than the reality for people without your advantages, and so called "full employment" merely cements them in place at the bottom and struggling.
They aren't shirkers and spongers, they are exploited.

They voted for Brexit because change for the better was promised, not some outlandish "The Empire strikes back" notion like Boris, Jackass Grease Smug , Gollum and the Cheshire Cat maunder on about.

Why is nothing UK based? because our predatory investors can make a quicker buck in China and anywhere the workers can be exploited and abused to an even greater degree and the environment goes to hell.

Why hasn't manufacturing moved back here? perhaps now Workers are no longer protected by the EU we can go back to using them as expendable in the pursuit of profit, and the first steps have been taken in rejecting the human rights legislation.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg of repression you voted for with Brexit, perhaps you didn't notice?
Something you say has to change, it has, if you care to look, and it's not pretty.

 

[oldtom]

Should someone be having a word with the US President about the stuff American news media is putting out about Britain's status as a world power?



Perhaps this is part of a subtle plan to ensure we feel an increased need of the protection afforded by American nuclear missiles, available to us at a special price because of our 'special' relationship with our former colony?

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

You haven't seen much change in the increase in the cost of living?probably not among the middle class, come to good old Hull, that bastion of Brexit Voters, where things they are a changing.
The Middle class here now shop in Aldi and Lidl

Those in work (so called) but on limited and fixed hours contracts stagger to work while suffering from the Flu, on subsistence level wages and shop in the much expanded pound shops that now carry a huge line of short dated and or time expired groceries.

You don't live in a real world, do you, so your outlook is much rosier than the reality for people without your advantages, and so called "full employment" merely cements them in place at the bottom and struggling.
They aren't shirkers and spongers, they are exploited.

They voted for Brexit because change for the better was promised, not some outlandish "The Empire strikes back" notion like Boris, Jackass Grease Smug , Gollum and the Cheshire Cat maunder on about.

Why is nothing UK based? because our predatory investors can make a quicker buck in China and anywhere the workers can be exploited and abused to an even greater degree and the environment goes to hell.

Why hasn't manufacturing moved back here? perhaps now Workers are no longer protected by the EU we can go back to using them as expendable in the pursuit of profit, and the first steps have been taken in rejecting the human rights legislation.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg of repression you voted for with Brexit, perhaps you didn't notice?
Something you say has to change, it has, if you care to look, and it's not pretty.

Yes I agree with all that OG but that is different to folk selling expensive pedelecs and blaming decline on Brexit. Its like me saying my firms yacht charters are down because people cant afford to eat.
Besides the problems you talk about have been with us well before Brexit.
The massive north south divide , the decline in northern towns , and to be fair whatever issues you see in Hull I,ve saw in Rotherham/ Sheffield years ago.
You are absolutely right there is a massive unfair differential between rich and poor that should bot exist, but blaming that divide on Brexit is totally wrong.
I find it quite hypocritical all these people coming on here championing the underprivileged yet actually enjoying a fantastic lifestyle themselves in no small measure due to our " unfair" system.

We have done nothing to address the massive social divide in 30 years. Blaming it now on Brexit is just a remain tool to claim moral high ground. Its the last resort of a loosing argument.
What about " the poor" , " the immigrants" the " ethnic minorities" .
Leavers are racists, unfeeling,ill informed,take advantage, scroungers...etc etc etc At various times you,ve levelled them all....And all untrue and completely missing point.
And you for some reason completely forget the fact Labour/ Corbyn want to leave the EU in an attempt to reduce the very issues we mention. Corbyn sees he needs the freedom only available out of EU to do the things he proposes. Yes, Tories might want out for similar reasons with a view to different policies/ approach but the common strand is both want out.
And BTW the low value of the pound you put such emphasis on is not new. We,ve been here before but fact is this time we have more front room economists telling us its so bad. It isn't. Years ago many argued parity ( with Euro) was on cards and if arrived at would remain.

Brexit has awaken thousands of amateur politicians, economists, stock brokers. All claiming to know better. They don't.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Yes I agree with all that OG but that is different to folk selling expensive pedelecs and blaming decline on Brexit. Its like me saying my firms yacht charters are down because people cant afford to eat.
Besides the problems you talk about have been with us well before Brexit.
The massive north south divide , the decline in northern towns , and to be fair whatever issues you see in Hull I,ve saw in Rotherham/ Sheffield years ago.
You are absolutely right there is a massive unfair differential between rich and poor that should bot exist, but blaming that divide on Brexit is totally wrong.
I find it quite hypocritical all these people coming on here championing the underprivileged yet actually enjoying a fantastic lifestyle themselves in no small measure due to our " unfair" system.

We have done nothing to address the massive social divide in 30 years. Blaming it now on Brexit is just a remain tool to claim moral high ground. Its the last resort of a loosing argument.
What about " the poor" , " the immigrants" the " ethnic minorities" .
Leavers are racists, unfeeling,ill informed,take advantage, scroungers...etc etc etc At various times you,ve levelled them all....And all untrue and completely missing point.

You've made a number of assumptions based on my comments, too many for me to have time to pick them all out and quote them individually.

But, some things I think you might need to be aware of. KTM, like Porshe are very much NOT top of the luxury items in their categories in terms of price. Most of the bikes we as KTM sell are very much utility bikes whether that be e or normal. Certainly if you look at the price of eBikes like cars, you'll find KTM and Porsche are not at the top of the price points.

I never said there was a decline in pedelecs, because there isn't. There isn't even a decline in selling KTMs. We're up, just had the best winter in the whole time we've been selling KTMs.

However the cycle market is shrinking at a rapid rate, which impacts on everyone. Us growing our sales in this shrinking market is down to a lot of things that I put in place to ensure we could survive the slow down that I think is coming, in fact its already starting.

 

[Zlatan]

You haven't seen much change in the increase in the cost of living?probably not among the middle class, come to good old Hull, that bastion of Brexit Voters, where things they are a changing.
The Middle class here now shop in Aldi and Lidl

Those in work (so called) but on limited and fixed hours contracts stagger to work while suffering from the Flu, on subsistence level wages and shop in the much expanded pound shops that now carry a huge line of short dated and or time expired groceries.

You don't live in a real world, do you, so your outlook is much rosier than the reality for people without your advantages, and so called "full employment" merely cements them in place at the bottom and struggling.
They aren't shirkers and spongers, they are exploited.

They voted for Brexit because change for the better was promised, not some outlandish "The Empire strikes back" notion like Boris, Jackass Grease Smug , Gollum and the Cheshire Cat maunder on about.

Why is nothing UK based? because our predatory investors can make a quicker buck in China and anywhere the workers can be exploited and abused to an even greater degree and the environment goes to hell.

Why hasn't manufacturing moved back here? perhaps now Workers are no longer protected by the EU we can go back to using them as expendable in the pursuit of profit, and the first steps have been taken in rejecting the human rights legislation.

And that is just the tip of the iceberg of repression you voted for with Brexit, perhaps you didn't notice?
Something you say has to change, it has, if you care to look, and it's not pretty.

That's all to do with a change of government not in or out EU. Its proven we,ve had decine in many areas whilst in EU.
Your assumption about EU offering some kind of safety net against bad practices is very strange when you examine what's going on now and has been for years.
The growth of betting ; government sanctioned loan sharking and the exploitation with zero hours contracts are proof EU has no affect . Poverty is EU wide.
Your arguments are based on massive assumptions. Many wrong.
By the way Tom. How's Spain at the moment ? Heard weather was brilliant at moment. No wind tho.

 

[Zlatan]

You've made a number of assumptions based on my comments, too many for me to have time to pick them all out and quote them individually.

But, some things I think you might need to be aware of. KTM, like Porshe are very much NOT top of the luxury items in their categories in terms of price. Most of the bikes we as KTM sell are very much utility bikes whether that be e or normal. Certainly if you look at the price of eBikes like cars, you'll find KTM and Porsche are not at the top of the price points.

I never said there was a decline in pedelecs, because there isn't. There isn't even a decline in selling KTMs. We're up, just had the best winter in the whole time we've been selling KTMs.

However the cycle market is shrinking at a rapid rate, which impacts on everyone. Us growing our sales in this shrinking market is down to a lot of things that I put in place to ensure we could survive the slow down that I think is coming, in fact its already starting.

That's all great KTM. I dont think you can tell me much about where Porsche stand in market and I didn't say they represented absolute top of financial luxury. They plainly dont, but they are well up, as you are.
And if what you are now saying is case what's the problem ? Championing somebody else whilst you are fine ?
That's what most people moaning about stuff are doing at moment. Tom all way from Spain telling us how bad it is here.
By the way, knife crime and acid attacks have risen dramatically past 12 months. Is that down to Brexit ??

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

That's all great KTM. I dont think you can tell me much about where Porsche stand in market and I didn't say they represented absolute top of financial luxury. They plainly dont, but they are well up, as you are.
And if what you are now saying is case what's the problem ? Championing somebody else whilst you are fine ?
That's what most people moaning about stuff are doing at moment. Tom all way from Spain telling us how bad it is here.
By the way, knife crime and acid attacks have risen dramatically past 12 months. Is that down to Brexit ??

I've had to halve our margin, cut marketing spend. Cancel plans to take on a new apprentice, pull out of the Cycle Show for 2018, and we didn't do Bike Place this month. I cancelled a holiday over Christmas and I don't have a 2018 bike myself. So believe me I'm very much not championing someone else whilst saying I'm fine, and all our cut backs effect those we'd normally spend money with, so I feel for them too.

We've had to make some serious cuts to ensure that sales grow, but sales growing with 1/2'd margin doesn't mean more money coming in.

Crime going up, could be related to cuts in policing budgets couldn't it? Do you think all the time / money being spent on Brexit could be better spent sorting the issues with the public services, that are clearly struggling.

Brexit is the elephant in every room currently, it might not be the cause, but equally its not the solution.

however its certainly making things worse, not better. Isn't it?

 

[Danidl]

I see your point but with all respect to KTM he is representing a system that has worked out how to charge between 2 and 5 thousand pounds for a push bike.(As have most big brands)
Pedelecs are a luxury item, and KTM about as luxury as you can get within a group of luxury items..The likely market will be unaffected by even a 20% pay rise, they would simply buy a cheaper make ?

As I said before, if you walk into Ferrari show room and cant afford one, you go to Porsche and probably end up in the Audi one. In this type of market people just change allegiances in hardening times.

The industry I know about talked about massive rises in price, we,ve only seen them in isolated cases which in every case have been discounted to almost last years prices by now. ( that board I mentioned was advertised at £1800 6 months ago,few paid that.)
Not really fair to comment and there probably are those that are struggling but I,ve not really seen much increase in cost of living, nothing like that mentioned on here by all those folk on good salaries and pensions, some living abroad spending there hard earned cash in Spanish supermarkets and bars.
I,m hoping the rise in price we have witnessed in Windsurf kit ( and other luxury items) will foster some Uk based firm to start making the stuff..We used to have a thriving board ( and bike) industry. All the big companies now French/ German/ Swedish based , with manufacture in far east. Why is almost nothing UK based ? Whatever happens, in or out the EU, that must change.
And it could be argued that economy cant be that bad when we dont see a rise in Pedelec sales. Folk could be replacing their cars with them???

There are a lot of points in this posting, so I probably will fail to address them all..
I take it the industry to which you are referring is the luxury pleasure boats industry? A characteristic of this type of industry is that they will appear ebbuliant even if all is chaos behind. If they are discounting, some of it will be fat they can afford to pay, then it gets to the stage that they default and bankruptcy, Their sub suppliers, the carpenters, the fitters ,are left high and dry...

The inflation rate in the UK is currently at 3% and wage increases lag it by 1% , nett effect most people are poorer by 1% , compared to this time last year. The only saving grace is that basically full employment has been reached, so unless wages rise, people will be poorer. Is that a Brexit effect?. Some of us think so, as investment has slowed.
One of the hoped for effects from a Brexit is an increase in manufacturing in the UK. You refer to a hole in the wind surfing market for UK manufacturing of boards. OK, that may well happen at a cottage industry level, as it was say 20 years ago. But it is difficult to inject the kinds of money needed for volume manufacture into cottage industries. .. the difference between a hand crafted wooden board and an injection moulded or rotational formed , is the difference in capital expended. The current trend being in these inflatable stand up paddle boards, which might well suit Norfolk.. but that needs high tech tooling. Who will finance it.
With reduced finance, people will experiment with alternatives to cars and trains, . I can see more uninsured or untaxed cars, more older cars on the road, an increase in used car values, an increase in petrol mopeds, more bikes and even more ebikes.. not at the 3k mark more the 800 quid mark. The problem is that people may not have the capital to make a switch.
Moving on to one of your other posts.. I don't believe that anyone was claiming that Brexit was a cause of the North south divide, or that remaining would cure it.
You asked the rethorical question is the increase in knife crime Brexit related? .. what if the answer is maybe.
The tenor of the debate, and the media rubbishing and disrespect to the major organs of the UK state.. the hoc, hol,the judiciary at the time of the challenges to the legality of invoking article 50 has an effect and emboldens thugs.
The increased poverty is well known to increase crime.
The parlaysis in the government and its preoccupation with faction fighting regarding Brexit is providing a vacuum.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Crime going up, could be related to cuts in policing budgets couldn't it? Do you think all the time / money being spent on Brexit could be better spent sorting the issues with the public services, that are clearly struggling.

Not to mention austerity - people with little or no money tend to "help themselves"...

 

[Zlatan]

There are a lot of points in this posting, so I probably will fail to address them all..
I take it the industry to which you are referring is the luxury pleasure boats industry? A characteristic of this type of industry is that they will appear ebbuliant even if all is chaos behind. If they are discounting, some of it will be fat they can afford to pay, then it gets to the stage that they default and bankruptcy, Their sub suppliers, the carpenters, the fitters ,are left high and dry...

The inflation rate in the UK is currently at 3% and wage increases lag it by 1% , nett effect most people are poorer by 1% , compared to this time last year. The only saving grace is that basically full employment has been reached, so unless wages rise, people will be poorer. Is that a Brexit effect?. Some of us think so, as investment has slowed.
One of the hoped for effects from a Brexit is an increase in manufacturing in the UK. You refer to a hole in the wind surfing market for UK manufacturing of boards. OK, that may well happen at a cottage industry level, as it was say 20 years ago. But it is difficult to inject the kinds of money needed for volume manufacture into cottage industries. .. the difference between a hand crafted wooden board and an injection moulded or rotational formed , is the difference in capital expended. The current trend being in these inflatable stand up paddle boards, which might well suit Norfolk.. but that needs high tech tooling. Who will finance it.
With reduced finance, people will experiment with alternatives to cars and trains, . I can see more uninsured or untaxed cars, more older cars on the road, an increase in used car values, an increase in petrol mopeds, more bikes and even more ebikes.. not at the 3k mark more the 800 quid mark. The problem is that people may not have the capital to make a switch.
Moving on to one of your other posts.. I don't believe that anyone was claiming that Brexit was a cause of the North south divide, or that remaining would cure it.
You asked the rethorical question is the increase in knife crime Brexit related? .. what if the answer is maybe.
The tenor of the debate, and the media rubbishing and disrespect to the major organs of the UK state.. the hoc, hol,the judiciary at the time of the challenges to the legality of invoking article 50 has an effect and emboldens thugs.
The increased poverty is well known to increase crime.
The parlaysis in the government and its preoccupation with faction fighting regarding Brexit is providing a vacuum.

Agreed but the biggest factor you,ve mentioned is not the intrinsic demerits of Brexit , its the discourse surrounding it. I,ve said before and I,ll say it again. I really could not careless which way brexit goes. It will not make a jit of difference to our " lot". My only reservation is we should follow the wishes of the majority of voters and not that of those willing to shout loudest and insult most.
The big issue ( pardon the pun) is not in or out of EU. Its establishing a fairer system, which is far from the case whilst we have been in. The assumption country will somehow become a caring, less divisive and fairer society by staying in is at best naive .
Personally , having travelled and lived in many places throughout Europe I see no reason at all to suggest staying in will alleviate poverty, stop exploitation,diminish crime or anything else remainers seem to think EU can do. They cant. The most crime ridden places, the most dangerous, the poorest and the most exploitive places in the EU are not in UK. So how come EU is miraculously going to rid our society at some future date of these woes. It cant. It won't. Its probably corrupt itself.
All the problems you put at feet of Brexit were well established in Uk prior to it. The only objective change so far , has been drop in pound, which many would argue is a positive step.
Anyhow, not posting for a while. Off to Vietnam soon, getting stuff ready.

 

[Zlatan]

Not to mention austerity - people with little or no money tend to "help themselves"...

Austerity measures were well prior to Brexit.
Cant really believe so many arguments are made claiming to be objective and factual when actually they are far from it. ( On all sides.)
For goodness sake, will some remainer stand for election on all these " points" and get elected. According to remainers ( on here) they would walk in. Come on Shan,KTM,OG,Tom stand. You have a party there.

 

[Kudoscycles]

The closest town to where I live has seen most of the big name high street shops close and move onto retail parks on the outskirts. Some of those are struggling to compete with on-line traders and have also closed.

The size of the retail area in the town centre has shrunk dramatically over the past 50 years. The only shops which seem to be surviving are those offering something unique such as quirky furnishings, high quality butchers, delicatessens, fancy cake shops and bakeries. Then there is the usual smattering of coffee shops, chemists, charity outlets & betting shops.

I don't think there is any way back for many of these vacant town centre shop units and they would be better suited to conversion to flats. Some are in lovely old victorian buildings.

I think it is wrong of KTM man to suggest that Brexit is a big factor in the decline of the high street. That started before we joined the EU, continued whilst we were in it and will carry on after we leave. That's just the way it is.

I have long thought that the only businesses that could survive on the high street are those that hold little or no stock....hairdressers,coffee bars,charity shops.....wonder why hairdressers have not moved out of town to retail parks....cheaper rates,easier parking.
The admission that the Treasury have told HMRC to 'go soft' on Amazon and E-bay says a lot as to why the vat fraud prevelant in those marketplaces has been ignored by HMRC....Amazon sell almost everything these days,cannot help the likes of Debenhams and House of Fraser.
KudosDave

 

[anotherkiwi]

Austerity measures were well prior to Brexit.
Cant really believe so many arguments are made claiming to be objective and factual when actually they are far from it. ( On all sides.)
For goodness sake, will some remainer stand for election on all these " points" and get elected. According to remainers ( on here) they would walk in. Come on Shan,KTM,OG,Tom stand. You have a party there.

I wasn't talking about brexit but about possible causes for an increasing crime rate...

 

[Zlatan]

I wasn't talking about brexit but about possible causes for an increasing crime rate...

Apologies.Yes, you are right.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

taken from one of the trade forums, just now:

"
Getting back on track, I've just heard that Copenhagen Bicycle Kompany (just outside of Tunbridge Wells) has closed.

It's a real shame as it had a niche in the market but the (former) owner told me that the impact of Brexit was too much to bear.
"

 

[Woosh]

the (former) owner told me that the impact of Brexit was too much to bear.

but brexit has not happened yet.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

but brexit has not happened yet.

very true, but it doesn't need to have happened for its impacts to be felt.