Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

Pictures tend to get a message across far more succinctly than several paragraphs, often misunderstood anyway, so these are some which have caught my eye over the last day or two. They serve to illustrate how we have got into the mess we find ourselves and rather concisely depict some of the major difficulties about to befall us:










Please can I have another bowl of sovereignty Sir?

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

With deference to 'DBye's post #24565, I can't think of any other agencies which will still enjoy the company of UK representatives post 'Brexit' but I rather think our input will no longer be welcome anywhere, given the tone of Barnier's comments on the Europol issue:

brexit-europol-michel-barnier-speech-kicked-out-european-police-cooperation-eu-benefits-amber-rudd-a8082081.html

Tom

He is perfectly right of course, they are "Taking back Control"

 

[oldtom]

It's a matter of opinion and this one is lifted from the AAV blog:

Imagine the Brexiter outrage if Remain had won with 52% of the vote, then a small clique of radical Europhile Remainers held the Prime Minister hostage demanding the hardest possible Remain, with the UK to join Schengen area, join the Eurozone, spearhead moves towards a combined EU army and further EU integration towards a federal state. Then they decided to deliberately load most of the cost of this hard Remain project onto the people who voted against it.

The Brexiters would be shrieking, and howling, and probably even baying for civil war (if Farage's comments about picking up his rifle are anything to go by).

But the Brexiteers won with 52% of the vote; Theresa May is being held hostage by a clique of radical Europhobic hard-Brexiters; the Tories are driving us towards an extreme hard Brexit interpretation of the EU referendum result; and by staggering the Brexit settlement payments decades into the future, they're deliberately loading the majority of the vast cost of quitting the world's largest trading bloc onto the demographics who didn't even want it.

It's unbelievable that they seem to be getting away with it too.

Tom

 

[Danidl]

With deference to 'DBye's post #24565, I can't think of any other agencies which will still enjoy the company of UK representatives post 'Brexit' but I rather think our input will no longer be welcome anywhere, given the tone of Barnier's comments on the Europol issue:

brexit-europol-michel-barnier-speech-kicked-out-european-police-cooperation-eu-benefits-amber-rudd-a8082081.html

Tom

That speech strikes me as the first wrong move mr barnier has made. His role as chief negotiator is to implement policy and to bring back proposals. I cannot see where he was empowered to introduce defense and security issues.

 

[Woosh]

This picture explains what's going on inside the divorce bill.
The red portion at the bottom explains the difference of opinion between the UK and the EU.

 

[oldgroaner]

That speech strikes me as the first wrong move mr barnier has made. His role as chief negotiator is to implement policy and to bring back proposals. I cannot see where he was empowered to introduce defense and security issues.

And why not? our side feel free to say anything they think will be popular with the Brexit Fans, don't they?
They have been telling them Europe needs us to bolster it's security and defence, now we find that neither are wanted by Europe.

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Express, hoping that the Brexit Voters aren't bright enough to see they are being conned yet again.
"
UK will save a FORTUNE by handing EU £50billion, Brexiteer Daniel Hannan declares
THE UK is set to save a fortune by paying its “divorce bill” with the EU despite Remoaner’s “morose” complaining, according to Daniel Hannan.

Despite Remoaners "morose " complaining?
So Boris, Gove, Jackass Grease Smug and co are Remoaners for saying we shouldn't Pay?

Truly these people live in an alternative reality, where anything they care to say is Truth rather than a pack of lies!

 

[Woosh]

Despite Remoaners "morose " complaining?
So Boris, Gove, Jackass Grease Smug and co are Remoaners for saying we shouldn't Pay?

Truly these people live in an alternative reality, where anything they care to say is Truth rather than a pack of lies!

they do what the do best, spin.
they may have lost the argument but still won the vote.

 

[oldgroaner]

they do what the do best, spin.
they may have lost the argument but still won the vote.

Which vote are you referring to?

 

[flecc]

It's a matter of opinion and this one is lifted from the AAV blog:

Imagine the Brexiter outrage if Remain had won with 52% of the vote, then a small clique of radical Europhile Remainers held the Prime Minister hostage demanding the hardest possible Remain, with the UK to join Schengen area, join the Eurozone, spearhead moves towards a combined EU army and further EU integration towards a federal state. Then they decided to deliberately load most of the cost of this hard Remain project onto the people who voted against it.

The Brexiters would be shrieking, and howling, and probably even baying for civil war (if Farage's comments about picking up his rifle are anything to go by).

But the Brexiteers won with 52% of the vote; Theresa May is being held hostage by a clique of radical Europhobic hard-Brexiters; the Tories are driving us towards an extreme hard Brexit interpretation of the EU referendum result; and by staggering the Brexit settlement payments decades into the future, they're deliberately loading the majority of the vast cost of quitting the world's largest trading bloc onto the demographics who didn't even want it.

It's unbelievable that they seem to be getting away with it too.

Tom

Excellent post Tom, it describes and contrasts the positions very accurately.
.

 

[Woosh]

Which vote are you referring to?

the last one, which counts.

Excellent post Tom, it describes and contrasts the positions very accurately.
.

remainers didn't and still don't fight hard enough.

 

[flecc]

That speech strikes me as the first wrong move mr barnier has made. His role as chief negotiator is to implement policy and to bring back proposals. I cannot see where he was empowered to introduce defense and security issues.

Surely that is just implementing policy? Outside of the EU the UK is no different from any other foreign country, having the potential to be an enemy, as our long joint history proves.

Clearly the EU cannot freely share all defence and security issues with foreign countries and that will automatically be their policy. To my mind Michel Barnier is bringing some realism, in stark contrast to our position of not wanting to be in any way a part of the EU or its justice system while waffling about remaining good friends. Ours is not a trustworthy position, being somewhat two faced.
.

 

[flecc]

remainers didn't and still don't fight hard enough.

Because they are intelligent enough to see that departure is both impossible to reverse at present and that it will eventually be reversed by the seriously adverse Brexit outcome.
.

 

[oldtom]

That speech strikes me as the first wrong move mr barnier has made. His role as chief negotiator is to implement policy and to bring back proposals. I cannot see where he was empowered to introduce defense and security issues.

I cannot imagine that Barnier would say anything publicly without first having been appraised of the thinking of the coterie behind the scenes. He is very clearly the mouthpiece for the major EU leaders and I think he is too experienced to allow himself to be made a scapegoat for any unpopular aspects of the EU position.

Barnier seems to be a pretty sharp operator whereas our lead in the negotiations isn't; slippery - undoubtedly, but completely out of his depth in a forum that requires more than a little diplomatic skill plus a degree of charm.

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

I see that your relationship with Amerika and it's wonderful leader are going swimmingly too...

 

[Danidl]

Surely that is just implementing policy? Outside of the EU the UK is no different from any other foreign country, having the potential to be an enemy, as our long joint history proves.

Clearly the EU cannot freely share all defence and security issues with foreign countries and that will automatically be their policy. To my mind Michel Barnier is bringing some realism, in stark contrast to our position of not wanting to be in any way a part of the EU or its justice system while waffling about remaining good friends. Ours is not a trustworthy position, being somewhat two faced.
.

I don't agree that it is implementing policy. I am not suggesting that the arrangements could be as frictionless as at present but there are already protocols in place dealing with neighbours with whom one does not share many values.. Turkey is part of NATO. The USA is part of Interpol.
It strikes me that Mr barniers intervention was "ultra vires " and not helpful. But perhaps it lost some of its nuances in translation?

 

[flecc]

I don't agree that it is implementing policy. I am not suggesting that the arrangements could be as frictionless as at present but there are already protocols in place dealing with neighbours with whom one does not share many values.. Turkey is part of NATO. The USA is part of Interpol.
It strikes me that Mr barniers intervention was "ultra vires " and not helpful

Clearly Barnier wasn't being helpful, but surely that's what we must expect after sending the EU a "Dear John" letter and being cussed about our share of the joint committments.

We say we want to remain good friends while hardly striking a friendly posture, the lack of realism I mentioned and which Barnier is addressing.
.

 

[Danidl]

I cannot imagine that Barnier would say anything publicly without first having been appraised of the thinking of the coterie behind the scenes. He is very clearly the mouthpiece for the major EU leaders and I think he is too experienced to allow himself to be made a scapegoat for any unpopular aspects of the EU position.

Barnier seems to be a pretty sharp operator whereas our lead in the negotiations isn't; slippery - undoubtedly, but completely out of his depth in a forum that requires more than a little diplomatic skill plus a degree of charm.

Tom

I agree with your first point which is why I found it bizarre.
It still strikes me as counterproductive at this particular juncture.
The reported speech comes across as vexatious and exasperated rather than authoritative.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

remainers didn't and still don't fight hard enough.

As Flecc has also said. We don't need to.

We just have to let is unravel itself.

I met with a peer from the House of Lords last year and he told me very much the same thing. The positive about Brexit / Trump is at least we'll see these "solutions" are not the solutions.

If Remain / Clinton had won the extreme right would have been able to continue to claim it was the solution and would potentially have gained more and more support.

Now the anti immigration stance has been given the chance to show if it works, it will hopefully be the biggest push for tolerance as people realise we live on a planet together, claiming Britain First, or America First might make for a good speech but it doesn't actually work, and we're discovering this first hand now.

Experience is better then arguments at changing minds.

We have to let this pan out a bit more, so people realise that project fear wasn't scaremongering.

 

[Woosh]

As Flecc has also said. We don't need to.

We just have to let is unravel itself.

that day may never come.
brexit is unlikely to be a disaster, not economically anyway.
Immigration is down 100,000 since the vote, brexit has delivered its first result.