Brexit, for once some facts.

flecc

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There simply were no new engines built/ designed in UK untill Honda amalgamation.
Not true again. The Standard Vanguard wet liner engine used in those, some Triumphs and the Ferguson tractor was an all new up to the minute design, as was the Imp twin cylinder engine I mentioned.

The car industry needed heavy investment ( as Fiat/ VW/ PSA received) good trade relations and good management.
Bringing in different factors like trade relations and management failures as I said. And since when has Europe lacked difficult trade unionism? In France for PSA for example.

The UK car undustry always worked against an unreceptive and indoctrinated population and lack of investment. Nationalisation made it worse
Again those different factors of population and nationalisation Renault was also nationalised, even earlier and have been in and out of full or part nationalisation, but it didn't hold them back since they weren't suffering British management.

( My first job was under Edwards at BL,..when I try was obvious our car industry was dead in the water. There was literally no cash for anything.
What did you do with all the cash the government poured into BL?

The poor old Marina was competing with Golfs, Fiat 124's. and the likes. It had no chance. The engine was only one on books ( A series)
I actually ran an old Marina from 1991 to 1993 as part of a sociolology experiment. That old 1300 engine was good enough for that type of car, it was the car design that was poor. But that didn't matter, remember the Fiat 124 you quote was later to be maligned in it's Lada form, so no great rival. And another rival for most of the Marina's years was the Hillman Avenger, a truly horrible car. I had over a hundred of those on a company car fleet I'd taken over at that time. There was little to stop the Marina outselling those two, if only the media had given them a chance, but by then much of the country was in an anti-BL mode.
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flecc

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Flecc
Buick originally designed the Rover V8 but sold the rights to Mercury Marine.
After that GM engine had been used in the cars I quoted.

For quite a few years I raced a Scorpion K 19 with a 1000cc imp engine. In car use it needed plenty of oil baffling, which it sadly lacked in Imp. It overheated and the gearbox was appalling. It was the last car available under £1000. It was more than a flawed design and even with a better engine would not have competed with a mini.
Agreed that in the form you knew it was very flawed and I didn't dispute that. But the original design wasn't flawed, having no rear weight and handling problems with its light twin cylinder engine in the rear of a lighter car. That wasn't designed to compete with the Mini, they didn't know that existed when they started designing the Imp.

If the Rootes management had just stuck to that they could have had a winner, since no other British car competed with the 2cv and Fiat 500, but instead they were idiots and tried to change course midstream with very poor results.
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Zlatan

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Not true again. The Standard Vanguard wet liner engine used in those, some Triumphs and the Ferguson tractor was an all new up to the minute design, as was the Imp twin cylinder engine I mentioned.



Bringing in different factors like trade relations and management failures as I said. And since when has Europe lacked difficult trade unionism? In France for PSA for example.



Again those different factors of population and nationalisation Renault was also nationalised, even earlier and have been in and out of full or part nationalisation, but it didn't hold them back since they weren't suffering British management.



What did you do with all the cash the government poured into BL?



I actually ran an old Marina from 1991 to 1993 as part of a sociolology experiment. That old 1300 engine was good enough for that type of car, it was the car design that was poor. But that didn't matter, remember the Fiat 124 you quote was later to be maligned in it's Lada form, so no great rival. And another rival for most of the Marina's years was the Hillman Avenger, a truly horrible car. I had over a hundred of those on a company car fleet I'd taken over at that time. There was little to stop the Marina outselling those two, if only the media had given them a chance, but by then much of the country was in an anti-BL mode.
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The Lada never used the twin cam engine. I never ever saw a twin cylinder Imp. Only engine I ever saw in Imp was SOHC alloy block 4 cylinder on a slant...hanging behind rear axle.. Normally was 850 but you could get it stroked/ bored to 998.( they still use them in side cars, but not many left)
But again its irrelevant..my point throughout had been all British built cars were under funded. ( apart from a few specialist)
And the first Imp tested was deemed to quick for its handling. Hillman had to reduce carb size to lower its power. (Cant find it on web but remember tests of day)
It wasn't UK car industries finest hour flecc. ( The 124 was good deal bigger, its competitor was mini and 128..I had all 3, raced all 3 in 70's. Fastest mini,best road car..Fiat 128 and by some. ( cant remember name but there was a sports version of 128..brilliant little car. Had one years..( Had same engine as X19 but handled better. X19 was similar to Imp. Frightening.
But if IMP was intended to have a lightweight twin, it actually makes sense. Never heard that before. Would have handled loads better with less weight at back...thats why 911 is so hard to drive properly..but Boxster isn't. ( faces other way in Boxster)

The really odd thing I remember about Imp was that I expected it to be tail happy and oversteer with all that weight at back...( beetles/ X19/ 911's all try to swap ends) but the Imp always understeered ( ie front end losing grip first) Could never figure that...I could not drive Imp quick...but to be fair lots could...and it wasn't fun...Tail happy cars I always enjoyed...even the slow ones..
 
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flecc

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The Lada never used the twin cam engine.
Yes, it used a newer single cam engine.

Only engine I ever saw in Imp was SOHC alloy block 4 cylinder on a slant...hanging behind rear axle.. Normally was 850 but you could get it stroked/ bored to 998.
Yes very familiar with it in all it's forms, far more than most since I used to used a Coventry Climax firepump trailer when on fire duties in the army. That was its original 750cc form, Hillman modding to 875 to outdo the Mini engine size. It was far too big and heavy to be hung there. It reminded me of the Tatra 603 with it's huge rear V8 engine!
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flecc

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I never ever saw a twin cylinder Imp.
It never reached the public. Here's an extract I found:

"When the Hillman Imp was first conceived under the guidance of B.B. Winter, then Technical Director of Rootes, it was towards the end of the post-war economic squeeze in the U.K. and Europe. The idea was a really cheap car for four adults, economical to run and requiring minimum servicing. It had a horizontally opposed twincylinder air-cooled engine and non-synchromesh four-speed gearbox, which was designed by and planned to be manufactured by Villiers of Wolverhampton.

As development proceeded, Peter Ware took over after Winters's retirement and this coincided with increasing demand for more sophistication in the minimal vehicle.* It also so happened that there was a young development engineer on the Imp project by the name of Mike Parkes, whose weekends were spent helping David Fry with his competition cars, one of which was powered by an 1,100 c.c. Coventry Climax single o.h.c. four-cylinder engine. Parkes proposed to the management that this was the type of engine needed and there was a smaller 741 c.c. version of this unit, which had been successful at Le Mans.

With its all-aluminium construction and installed weight of only 160 lb. for an output of 65 b.h.p. it could be mounted in-line at the rear without affecting weight distribution and would obviously have considerably enhanced performance. An engine was obtained from Coventry Climax, a new synchromesh gearbox designed and this is how the new Imp started life.

* By this they mean they'd heard of the Mini's design existence and got scared! They should have stuck to their guns and gone against the 2cv and Fiat 500 instead, as they'd originally planned.
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anotherkiwi

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A 1945 French car. With pedals!
 
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Woosh

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oldtom

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It will be interesting to hear Lord Kerr's speech today in which it has been claimed he will repudiate Theresa May's assertion that 'Brexit' is irreversible.

In the light of May's latest pronouncement, in which she pontificates that she will not tolerate any attempt to block 'Brexit', calling any who may wish to object to any part of the bill and its progress, 'rebels', I shall be mightily impressed if if her dictatorial attitude is allowed to pass unnoticed by the erm......rebels?

Kerr, apparently, is also likely to pursue the matter of the suppressed reports about the likely effects of 'Brexit' in various economic sectors.

Curiously, I haven't heard any fine words from the government recently about honesty, transparency, etc or the comforting phrase about all being in it together. Perhaps I missed it somewhere but I suspect they are busily searching for a new buzzword or easily recited and easily remembered phrase to placate the electorate in time for Christmas.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-theresa-may-article-50-reversal-misleading-public-author-lord-kerr-claims-a8046676.html

Tom
 
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oldgroaner

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What about a happy medium... Omni Res in moderatio.
I never replied to one of your messages where you indicated that the wealthy are now being taxed more than they were in the 1970s... There is a very simple reason. The ratio between the top earners and the median income has ballooned over the last 40 years.. There has not been a fair divide of the automation dividend.

One view... The conservative one is why should there be ... We put in the risk we deserve the reward. But that presupposes the the risks are equivalent.. how do you equate the risk of a truck driver bringing a 30 ton lorry thousands of miles a week and the person putting money into an investment?
The other view we need money to live and have a home life. If I get ill can I be assured of reasonable and competent care?
Your cartoon is a wonderful inversion of the world according to the Conservative mindset. for the reality is that they are actually strongly socialist as well as Capitalist their beliefs are these.

Socialism for the Rich....all the benefits and swindles and no work
Capitalism for the Poor.. All the work, no swindles and no benefits to support the parasitic lifestyle of their self proclaimed "Betters"
 
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oldgroaner

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This is an interesting read - not just the Headlines please!

The Germans are making contingency plans for the collapse of Europe. Let’s hope we are, too

View attachment 22063
The German defence ministry set out its worst-case scenario for the year 2040 in a secret document that was leaked to Der Spiegel last week: “EU enlargement has been largely abandoned, and more states have left the community … the increasingly disorderly, sometimes chaotic and conflict-prone, world has dramatically changed the security environment.”

The 120-page-long paper, entitled Strategic Perspective 2040, is a federal government policy document – and the scenarios it imagines are grimly realistic: an east-west conflict in which some EU states join the Russian side or a “multipolar” Europe, where some states adopt the Russian economic and political model in defiance of the Lisbon treaty.

That the document exists at all is a sign of the increased tension in the global system. The German military’s tradition of rigorous logistical planning for every eventuality began with the celebrated German field marshal Moltke in the 1850s and has three times paid off with initial success: in 1871 against France, in 1914 and 1939 against the rest of Europe. In the post-cold war era, as Der Spiegel puts it, allowing German generals to make statements about the future was “too risky”. That changed with Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014.

Despite the alarmist headlines it has generated, the leaked document is, if anything, overoptimistic. In three out of the six scenarios, things go so well that Europe resembles the Biedermeier era – 1815-1848 – of domestic bliss and military boredom. Its negative scenarios – which see the US struggling to avoid isolationism and China locked in a cultural war with the west – were written before Donald Trump came to power and before Xi Jinping’s strategy of creating a politicised Chinese infrastructure across Asia.

Brexit Should Be Prevented, German Government Advisers Say
View attachment 22064

The U.K.’s exit from the European Union should be prevented due to the “far-reaching impact” Brexit would have, Germany’s Council of Economic Experts, which advises Chancellor Angela Merkel, said Wednesday.

If Britain does leave the bloc, an agreement is needed that would minimize the damage for both sides, the council said in its annual report. With talks likely to drag on longer than the two years envisaged by EU rules, a one-time extension period should be granted, the experts said.

“Due to the wide-ranging impact of a U.K. exit from the EU, the council continues to urge that it be prevented,” the council said. “The economic cost of Brexit will hit the U.K. significantly harder than the rest of the EU.”

EU President Donald Tusk last month revived the notion Britain could remain a member of the bloc, saying the outcome was entirely in the hands of the British government. Germany and France have indicated the U.K. would be welcomed back if it decided to reverse the Brexit process. In order to do so, Britain would likely have to hold another referendum or elect a government led by a party that campaigned on a promise to stay in the EU.

The European Union will begin talks Wednesday on what the 27 countries want from a Brexit transition deal, seeking a united stance they can present to the U.K. once talks break out of the current deadlock. Both sides are hoping that talks on trade and the transition can move ahead after an EU summit in mid-December.

“There is still a risk of an uncontrolled exit and sudden adjustment reactions by economic agents,” the German government advisers said. “Conversely, the possibility of the U.K. staying in the EU can’t be completely excluded.” The council’s comments on Brexit made up about two pages of the more than 400-page report, which includes a detailed assessment of global economic conditions.

The advisers also urged the European Central Bank to end its bond-buying program earlier than planned and consider raising interest rates. They said that risks to financial market stability have increased even in the absence of deflationary threats in the 19-nation euro area.

“On the one hand there’s a risk of excessive asset prices, especially in the residential real estate and bond sectors, and on the other hand, the interest-rate change risk at banks has increased significantly,” the council said. “The ECB should therefore urgently communicate a comprehensive strategy for the normalization of its monetary policy.”
Here we can't even make plans for Brexit, can we?
 
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oldgroaner

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To all intents and purposes it was a nationalised industry, remind me who is it that's in favour of such? They simply don't work, can't work and never will work. The theory is fine as they are for co-operatives but they always fail, because no one is in charge with 'real' money. Taxation, is not 'real' money and neither is borrowing from someone else. We've already established that Governments don't work, why keep going back to a failed model? Governments are not the answer to the problems.
By your logic the country shouldn't be in the state it is today, how has Capitalism failed so badly here?
Answer: because it throws up greedy parasites like the Bankers and Investors who put money into slave labour in the Far East.
Why keep going back to that failed model?
 
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oldgroaner

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Germany was perhaps in an even worse position and they've done OK too. It didn't seem that good at the time, as I recall.

Yes, they were. British Army put Volkwagen Beetle back in production in Germany with UK cash. That seems quite ironic now, considering our own car builders received not a penny..

There is plenty of evidence showing higher taxation slows economy, reduces foreign investment and fails to raise commensurate revenue. The real way to increase revenue is to promote the economy. Corbyn disagrees as do most left wingers. The country will be way more damaged by Corbyn than by Brexit.
I have said so too, but only because Brexit makes it impossible for anyone to make a Silk purse out of that Sows Ear.
His best plan is to step back and have nothing whatever to do with running the "Everything must Go , Closing down Sale" after Brexit.
 
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PeterL

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By your logic the country shouldn't be in the state it is today, how has Capitalism failed so badly here?
Answer: because it throws up greedy parasites like the Bankers and Investors who put money into slave labour in the Far East.
Why keep going back to that failed model?
Do you really think that the many countries in the Far East now manufacturing goods and exporting them to us would agree with you? I don't think anyone would claim that for us it doesn't bring some issues but 'Free Trade' is essentially the right way to go and for us, Brexit is the way to deal with it.
 

oldtom

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Do you really think that the many countries in the Far East now manufacturing goods and exporting them to us would agree with you? I don't think anyone would claim that for us it doesn't bring some issues but 'Free Trade' is essentially the right way to go and for us, Brexit is the way to deal with it.
That is completely delusional! You really do need help.

Tom
 
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