Perhaps there is a dose of reality at work here? We might not like the rich but we do need them. I doubt that Brexit has anything at all to do with Tax Havens other than the fact that we, the UK seem to have a fair slice of the market - lucky us!
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Try this for size; the Tory Government changed the law to make this swindle easier, and while officially claiming it wanted to remain, has suspiciously and conveniently changed sides once fingered by EU investigators, who they finally realised had started to pose a real threat?
Or was it coincidence that May actually threatened to make this country into another Bermuda to blackmail the EU for better terms?
Oh good grief you will accept any thing they care to do won't you?
Lucky us? come off it.
Why do we need the likes of Louis Hamilton? and Mrs Brown's crew or all the other over paid celebrities?
The do no useful work and grossly over paid and avoid taxes.
The word for people like that? Parasitic.
Not meaning this to be as bad as it sounds OG, but there is more than just an element of this reading like a deathbed apology for all your past misdemeanors? Which is probably why I quite like it, I can see where you're coming from but I don't agree with you. Certainly, we will have a bit of a struggle post-Brexit as we find our way back into the big bad world but as far as our grand-children are concerned I don't think we are taking a big risk at all. As things currently stand they will have next to nothing to look forward too. Their future is in hock as successive Governments have taxed and borrowed until the pips have come out of the fruit. Being in the EU will not change that downward spiral.
From the Beeb
"Charity Christian Aid has spoken out about the Paradise Papers, saying that the schemes employed by companies and the rich to avoid taxes have a severe impact on poor and vulnerable people, and has damaged the UK's reputation abroad."
Shades of the old Monty Python Joke, lets just mod it a bit..
"You have insulted the UK's Good name!" cries the first voice.
"Don't be ridiculous, the UK hasn't got a good name!" retorts the second.
"Charity Christian Aid has spoken out about the Paradise Papers, saying that the schemes employed by companies and the rich to avoid taxes have a severe impact on poor and vulnerable people, and has damaged the UK's reputation abroad."
Shades of the old Monty Python Joke, lets just mod it a bit..
"You have insulted the UK's Good name!" cries the first voice.
"Don't be ridiculous, the UK hasn't got a good name!" retorts the second.
No, not anything, far from it. But, once again your tendency is to tar them all with the same brush. We need most, maybe not all, to facilitate progress, create jobs and yes, make money. That's how this capitalist system works, yes it has its faults, but at least we've moved on from where we were 2-300 years ago. Lot more people too and not all poor either, far from it.
Actually I don't recall, to my shame, having any past misdemeanors, but once again your interest is purely economic, whereas mine is social.
We had a chance to be part of the forward progress of the Human Race away from petty nations, the UK itself is after all the very thing that Brexit fans are dead set against.
And being small your understanding of the dire financial straits we are in is unlikely to change for the better is it?
The Capitalist sytem is driving the world into disaster, due to over exploitation .
It is too limited a concept to work on a global scale without ending calamitously in ecological and social ruin.
And world wide the poor are as numerous as ever.
You really do come out with some rubbish at times.
Nothing has changed since the referendum date?
Didn't you notice that the tories lost their majority in the general election? That was our Remainers fight back, and we near as dammit made it. Next time we emphatically will.
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You're doing it again OG. I am not a binary sort of person, I can see good in most people and many ideas. In fact I like to hear as many diverse opinions as I can, at which point I feel able to make my own mind up. Having done so, that's it and it won't change, unless someone can come up with something new. I'm not hearing much new on here am I? As for being small I'll have you know that I haven't shrunk, yet - I'm still 6'! I have compassion, lots of it and for my fellow man. Not only that but I do practice what I preach as well. If you need a helping hand some day, perhaps to do the shopping - I'd help you, probably wear ear-plugs though.
When we voted for Brexit, I was very upset. Many of the people in our circle who voted to leave did so primarily if not solely due to immigration with real anger (and possibly fear) behind the decision. At the time, practically every evening there were TV news stories of migrants boarding lorries seemingly as if to storm the UK. The news also ran numerous stories of migrants taking UK jobs and the dissatisfaction felt by UK residents at being displaced. Oddly enough, these stories practically stopped (or were greatly reduced soon after the referendum result.
I still feel saddened by the result. My feeling is that we have squandered something which far from perfect was still of great value. Obviously, others see things very differently. In terms of where we are now, I accept that we will leave the UK and in a way which for me would be the worst possible result i.e. with no deal and at the behest of Trump's America. It is hard to feel enthusiam for the outcome.
Ideally, I would have liked to have seen Labour in power and approach the negotiations in a spirit of friendship and genuine co-operation. I do not think this is possible under the May government due to the mistrust of Europe and the influence of vested interests and pressure groups. So I watch with a sense of defeat and to an extent even dread as events unfold.
I hope that I am wrong and that Brexit leads to a more compassionate and balanced society and one in which I would feel proud to belong. As a remainer, I have been fully aware of the anger of those who feel differently and their sense of injustice. Will this be different in the future? For me, the real sadness is that with all the time, energy and money spent on leaving the EU we could have been focusing on the real problems of society i.e poverty, injustice and maybe above all climate change which are going to become ever harder to address.
I still feel saddened by the result. My feeling is that we have squandered something which far from perfect was still of great value. Obviously, others see things very differently. In terms of where we are now, I accept that we will leave the UK and in a way which for me would be the worst possible result i.e. with no deal and at the behest of Trump's America. It is hard to feel enthusiam for the outcome.
Ideally, I would have liked to have seen Labour in power and approach the negotiations in a spirit of friendship and genuine co-operation. I do not think this is possible under the May government due to the mistrust of Europe and the influence of vested interests and pressure groups. So I watch with a sense of defeat and to an extent even dread as events unfold.
I hope that I am wrong and that Brexit leads to a more compassionate and balanced society and one in which I would feel proud to belong. As a remainer, I have been fully aware of the anger of those who feel differently and their sense of injustice. Will this be different in the future? For me, the real sadness is that with all the time, energy and money spent on leaving the EU we could have been focusing on the real problems of society i.e poverty, injustice and maybe above all climate change which are going to become ever harder to address.
We,ve been part of EU since 73 , which protectionist laws for the poor have we seen ? Your argument about EU being this all powerful caring organisation has never made sense OG. Were it the case we wouldn't be in the mess you point us to now. ( By the way its Lewis Hamilton, but in principle I agree with that point but again its irrelevant.
Remainers have allowed the remain campaign to be hijacked by any old group with an axe to grind. The social standing of our country is actually a secondary argument. Tom,s obsession with Fascism, your view of conservatives are all superflous to remain or leave.
EU has never had social control over its members so why are we insisting on arguing about social criteria for leave or remain. We know full well any government of day can and does ignore whichever EU directives it feels like.
Remain should stick to the point and simply put forward the economic benefits staying. ( As KTM tried)
Once remain argue about social matters the debate is lost, because
A) Labour want to leave.
B) We,ve seen directives ignored by all members.
C) We are already in a social mess with rich getting richer and poor poorer.
D) EU is not a shining example anyway.
The remain campaign for most part has concentrated on telling others why they voted as they did and that they are racist, blah blah blah for doing so. Now remainers are saying leaving is/ was inevitable as a reason for not making correct argument in first place. So its leavers faults twice.
Remainers should not have gone into attacking leavers, should not have brought fascism, tory/labour class war or even tax of rich into tho debate. Its so arguable those things could go either way in or out. What is not in dispute is our access to single market and ECJ. I honestly think had remainers rallied together on indisputable criteria we would be remaining.
Remainers lost the Ref by a very small margin, they have lost the post ref arguments/ policy formation by a massive one. Nobody since Ref has offered a remain policy.. Remainers must surely be asking themselves why not. The answers are on this thread for all to see.
Could Vince Cable have actually represented Tom, OG, Flecc and Steb ? Could anyone make all four happy ? I dont think that person exists and if he does he sure as hell isn't a politician.
I just want to leave EU, dont actually care if its a Labour or Tory government, as long as its a caring middle of road one. May seems to be trying, not ideal but ...
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What is the EU redistribution of money from the richer to the poorer zones about other than this? It's being doing it for decades.
Ignoring that I was the first one to do that in this thread and have repeatedly mentioned it to you since. So once again:
The economic benefits of staying are that we retain the considerable gains we've made while being in the EU and don't risk returning to the period of continuous decline towards bankruptcy that preceded our membership. Then over a period of decades we were proven losers, in manufacturing and commerce we lost almost everything.
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That's probably the case OG but what on earth has it got to do with leave or stay in EU.. Its exactly why remain is in such a mess. There is a problem with capitalism, its not perfect by any means but
A) There isn't really a viable alternative.
B) EU are one of its biggest proponents..
Again you are hijacking Remain/ Brexit on some idealistic crusade that EU/ UK or any individual government can do anything about.
If we stay in EU Capitalism will be utterly unchanged...anywhere...so why even bring it in. Thread is about Brexit. Not world peace, or Capitalism or Communism or Fascism...or even Socialism. Its exactly why remain argument is in tatters and no one is representing it.
Yes, I know you THINK all that and its a credible argument, but I do not THINK all that. ( but apologies for banding you with Tom etc, you,re arguments do hold substance, I just disagree with them)
I do not attribute any of our success to EU and I do not think EU has done much towards redistribution of wealth. If they have how come difference between rich and poor has grown in EU and UK.( don't answer that flecc, its old ground,lets just agree to disagree)
Yes, had remainers been more akin to yourself / KTM your views would now be represented. But to be fair where were your complaints when Tom and OG decided to hijack thread on some class war, insult Tories, leavers are idiots crusade ??? Such as those have really damaged not leavers but remainers. Had I been a remainer I,d be quite annoyed at remain being used as a vehicle to attack capitalism,fascism,tories etc etc. Its been quite ridiculous flecc.( look at OG,s last post about Capitalism, EU works,maintains even strives for capitalism, it keeps EU relatively rich ;for most part in work and puts food on all our tables. Perhaps some of your indignation should have been aimed at remainers ruining remain argument.)
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But why do you not think facts? On both the points I made:
1) The EU redistribution is a fact. Many UK areas have benefited far more from EU redistribution than from any UK government action. West Wales for one example, an area UK governments seem unaware of.
2) The UK decline before we joined the EU is well documented fact which many of us experienced at first hand. Almost everything we used to make we were no longer making and much of our commerce was lost too. It ended with the IMF taking over the economic management of the UK since we could no longer be internationally trusted to do that.
So I see on the one hand a proven economically better UK inside the EU, on the other hand a proven failed UK outside of the EU. Those are cast iron facts, not hope based fantasy.
Of course they don't demonstrate that we could not succeed if outside the EU in future, but they are very powerful indicators.
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