Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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absolutely! We of course, have a record of missing the goal with hover-craft and even the Harrier Jump-Jet being examples.
Most of our research these days ( companies seem to be doing less and less, alas) deals only with cases rather than broad new concepts, and seems to be University based, which to my mind while admirable in every way, does not take advantage of the perspective that Experienced Engineers Physicists, Chemists and Tech people in electronics and computing, law and psychology could bring to such an establishment, and even back then in our humble effort we did have Psychologists and Political analysts among the members, looking at the anticipated effects on the public.
It was actually run and organised by "The Research institute For Social Change"
For some reason the word "For" always worried me.

At a pinch it might be worth including the odd politician provided they were house trained.

Since that time I have enjoyed reading the thoughts of other "eccentrics" for a better word like this chap

https://documentarystorm.com/the-venus-project-future-by-design/

Pie in the sky? quite possibly, but my view is that is better to be aware of the thoughts of people who as they say "Think out of the Box" and consider them on their merits, than to dismiss them out of hand.

My take is that Companies should be required to provide the services of their brightest and best (rather like Jury service) for specified lengths of time, to what could become an important asset to the Nation.
It could well be that the feedback would make them more than willing to Participate.

Off the cuff it does occur to me that The Elite might be a little wary of the creation of an integrated network of radial thinkers looking at future prospects in such an uninhibited fashion!
Shades of "Behold the monster you've Created, for what could be more dangerous than "Artificial intelligence" out of control?
The Human old fashioned kind, of course!:eek:
 
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PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
998
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Dundee
Most of our research these days ( companies seem to be doing less and less, alas) deals only with cases rather than broad new concepts, and seems to be University based, which to my mind while admirable in every way, does not take advantage of the perspective that Experienced Engineers Physicists, Chemists and Tech people in electronics and computing, law and psychology could bring to such an establishment, and even back then in our humble effort we did have Psychologists and Political analysts among the members, looking at the anticipated effects on the public.
It was actually run and organised by "The Research institute For Social Change"
For some reason the word "For" always worried me.

At a pinch it might be worth including the odd politician provided they were house trained.

Since that time I have enjoyed reading the thoughts of other "eccentrics" for a better word like this chap

https://documentarystorm.com/the-venus-project-future-by-design/

Pie in the sky? quite possibly, but my view is that is better to be aware of the thoughts of people who as they say "Think out of the Box" and consider them on their merits, than to dismiss them out of hand.

My take is that Companies should be required to provide the services of their brightest and best (rather like Jury service) for specified lengths of time, to what could become an important asset to the Nation.
It could well be that the feedback would make them more than willing to Participate.

Off the cuff it does occur to me that The Elite might be a little wary of the creation of an integrated network of radial thinkers looking at future prospects in such an uninhibited fashion!
Shades of "Behold the monster you've Created, for what could be more dangerous than "Artificial intelligence" out of control?
The Human old fashioned kind, of course!:eek:
China seems to understand this or least Taiwan does. I spent a fair bit of time in a Tech Campus around 50 miles out of Taipei. they had all of the main industry players at the time, including IBM, HP, DELL,SAMSUNG and a few of their own including Mitac. All of them were doing both research and manufacturing and utilising the three universities that were there. It really did work well, very efficient and productive. No distractions either, it was miles from anywhere. Quite what some on here would make of that I wonder.
 

Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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Ah you are only a newbe, the oc72 was in operation from about 1956\7 and powered mw radios and other kit. The silicon transistor didn't come until 1960 and the bc108 family dates from about 1965.. a decade later. ...
I used to build guitar amps between 69 and 72 for a music shop. Oh, happy days.
 

anotherkiwi

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oldgroaner

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Looks like Davis and May are trying to put the failure on Brexit over to Labour ,the article in the Sunday Times today is obviously aimed at that.
KudosDave
Do tell all, not being a subscriber the only juicy bit accessible was the headline that she has approved £50 Billion Payments in annual instalments.
 

PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
998
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BRITAIN’S poorest households will be the biggest beneficiaries of Brexit, according to a prominent Labour group.

A paper co-authored by Labour Leave and a group of economists estimates that a reduction in prices and immigration will save the most deprived families £36 per week.

They also warn that a “soft Brexit” would “leave us worse off and in danger of remaining in the EU in all but name”. John Mills, a prominent party donor and chairman of Labour Leave, said calculations showed working class Labour voters “were right to back quitting the EU” because “they will see a boost to incomes that have been heavily depressed over the last decade”.

The report comes as Caroline Flint, a prominent Labour pro-Remain MP, warns in an article for today’s Sunday Telegraph that the party should stop “forecasting disaster at every turn” and start “preparing for life post-Brexit”.

‘They will see a boost to incomes that have been heavily depressed over the last decade’

On Thursday, Tom Watson, the deputy leader, said that Labour is now the party of “soft Brexit” and could keep Britain in the single market and customs union indefinitely.

But the report warns that such ideas include a “several-year” transition period that would “postpone the gains we make by leaving”. It added: “More importantly, this is most likely a deliberate attempt to frustrate the existing democratic will for Brexit by deferring it in the hope that a fresh referendum can be called or an election result produced that can negate it”.

Addressing the “gains” that economists have calculated that Brexit will bring to the economy, the report states: “The reduction in prices and immigration control are particularly important for lower-income households.

“These households spend more on food and housing, the prices of both of which are raised substantially by EU protectionism. Unskilled immigrants settle in poor communities which, therefore, carry a disproportionate cost in public services as well as suffering from a fall in wages.

“Our estimates show that the lowest decile household would gain £36 a week from Brexit; the second lowest decile (60 per cent of the median) would gain £44 a week.”

The report, New Model Economy for a Post-Brexit Britain, is published jointly by Labour Leave, Leave Means Leave and Economists for Free Trade.
 

oldgroaner

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China seems to understand this or least Taiwan does. I spent a fair bit of time in a Tech Campus around 50 miles out of Taipei. they had all of the main industry players at the time, including IBM, HP, DELL,SAMSUNG and a few of their own including Mitac. All of them were doing both research and manufacturing and utilising the three universities that were there. It really did work well, very efficient and productive. No distractions either, it was miles from anywhere. Quite what some on here would make of that I wonder.
It seems that you and I share many points of view, where we seem to differ is in faith in our Politicians Investors, Management and Media to have the "nous" to make this relatively small Politico-economic island of ours viable against far better organised competition than we have ever faced before.

I admire your optimism, I really do but for the life of me I cannot share it.
My assessment is that if we had had the skills we need for Brexit to succeed, We would have been able to guide and cajole the EU in the direction we wanted it to go, and not felt the urge to leave,yet we struggled to do even that.
"Lions led by donkeys" or perhaps "Jackasses" would be more appropriate.
We truly deserve better, we really do.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
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BRITAIN’S poorest households will be the biggest beneficiaries of Brexit, according to a prominent Labour group.

A paper co-authored by Labour Leave and a group of economists estimates that a reduction in prices and immigration will save the most deprived families £36 per week.

They also warn that a “soft Brexit” would “leave us worse off and in danger of remaining in the EU in all but name”. John Mills, a prominent party donor and chairman of Labour Leave, said calculations showed working class Labour voters “were right to back quitting the EU” because “they will see a boost to incomes that have been heavily depressed over the last decade”.

The report comes as Caroline Flint, a prominent Labour pro-Remain MP, warns in an article for today’s Sunday Telegraph that the party should stop “forecasting disaster at every turn” and start “preparing for life post-Brexit”.

‘They will see a boost to incomes that have been heavily depressed over the last decade’

On Thursday, Tom Watson, the deputy leader, said that Labour is now the party of “soft Brexit” and could keep Britain in the single market and customs union indefinitely.

But the report warns that such ideas include a “several-year” transition period that would “postpone the gains we make by leaving”. It added: “More importantly, this is most likely a deliberate attempt to frustrate the existing democratic will for Brexit by deferring it in the hope that a fresh referendum can be called or an election result produced that can negate it”.

Addressing the “gains” that economists have calculated that Brexit will bring to the economy, the report states: “The reduction in prices and immigration control are particularly important for lower-income households.

“These households spend more on food and housing, the prices of both of which are raised substantially by EU protectionism. Unskilled immigrants settle in poor communities which, therefore, carry a disproportionate cost in public services as well as suffering from a fall in wages.

“Our estimates show that the lowest decile household would gain £36 a week from Brexit; the second lowest decile (60 per cent of the median) would gain £44 a week.”

The report, New Model Economy for a Post-Brexit Britain, is published jointly by Labour Leave, Leave Means Leave and Economists for Free Trade.
And how much more than £36 per week have they lost already?
"The Resolution Foundation said 40% of the workforce were affected by falling real wages. Stephen Clarke, an economist at the thinktank, said: “Britain’s brief pay recovery has come to an end; 40% of the workforce are experiencing shrinking pay packets, according to the latest figures, in sectors ranging from accommodation to finance and the public sector. Many more will join them in the coming months as inflation continues to rise."
i'm afraid that the figure of £36 is just Propaganda, where are the supporting Facts?
"A paper co-authored by Labour Leave and a group of economists estimates that a reduction in prices and immigration will save the most deprived families £36 per week."
Where are these mythical "reductions in prices" and "immigration" to come from?
Prices are going the other way, or haven't you noticed?
It wasn't "Minford the Magnificent" again, was it?

lets face it when terms like
“These households spend more on food and housing, the prices of both of which are raised substantially by EU protectionism."
You have to ask, how does that affect the price of Housing? and is it preferred to have Chlorine washed Chickens for cheaper prices?
And this
"More importantly, this is most likely a deliberate attempt to frustrate the existing democratic will for Brexit by deferring it in the hope that a fresh referendum can be called or an election result produced that can negate it”.
So why when we already had had a referendum on EU membership was a second one OK, and what have they to fear from another?
They must know that there is a risk that what they think is the "Will of the people" has changed, and if true, then negating Brexit is the Democratic thing to do.
Winning a referendum does not make the future of the nation the inviolable property for ever of the winning side especially when the majority is 4%, far less that the normal 2:1 mandate expected in a Referendum
 
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PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
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Economic Agenda

UK holds the cards in EU ‘divorce bill’ row
Liam Halligan

The EU’s Brexit negotiators were apparently “flabbergasted” after their British counterparts launched a legal critique of the Brexit “divorce bill” last week.

UK civil servants spent three hours on a detailed line-by-line rebuttal of EU demands for a €100bn (£92bn) settlement. “It did not do down well,” said one Brussels source.

These Brexit negotiations just got serious – and not a moment too soon. The UK is under no legal obligation whatsoever to pay the EU to leave. I’ve never argued we should pay nothing and am not now. We want to exit on good terms, after all.

Yet when it comes to the financial side of these Article 50 talks, it is Britain, not the cash-strapped EU, that holds most of the cards.

The numbers Michel Barnier has been floating are ridiculous – beyond extortionate. There is also nothing sacred about the EU chief negotiator’s insistence we agree a multi-billion-pound payment before discussing anything else – citizens’ rights or trade, for instance.

Britain’s strength reflects not only the legal position but also the reality that Brexit leaves a gaping hole in the EU budget

How typical of the unaccountable, grotesquely self-important bureaucracy the European Commission has become that it insists on settling the question of more money for its own ludicrously inflated running costs before discussing issues of huge importance to citizens and businesses of the UK and the EU.

And how typical of our jaundiced broadcasters that such an insistence is taken for granted, accepted without question as eminently reasonable, while the UK is derided for pushing back.

Of course Britain should push back. We are talking about tens of billions of pounds, representing the hard work and tax payments of countless ordinary firms and households.

That amounts to dozens of hospitals, hundreds of new schools and thousands of teachers and nurses foregone.

“The Commission has set out its position and we have a duty to our taxpayers to interrogate it rigorously,” said David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, last Thursday. Damn right. This is real money, real public services. It is time the Eurocrats understood Britain need not pay a penny-bean. And we don’t need a trade deal to trade with the EU either.

The EU budget is set over seven-year cycles, currently covering 2014-20. It is because Brexit is scheduled for 2019, in the midst of such a period, that the notion of a “divorce bill” has arisen.

Estimates range across a broad spectrum. The Bruegel European think tank puts the net payment at €25bn to €65bn, once Britain receives its share of EU assets and repaid EU loans.

The Institute of Chartered Accountants reckons £5bn to £30bn, as the UK should not be liable for spending not committed to until after its departure.

In March 2017, a House of Lords report judged that the UK is not legally obliged to make any exit payment.

Britain’s strength reflects not only the legal position but also the reality that Brexit leaves a gaping hole in the EU budget.

The UK is the EU’s second-largest contributor. Since 2000, Britain has paid net €100bn to Brussels. Two weeks after the June 2016 referendum, Standard and Poor’s (S&P) downgraded the EU’s credit rating from AAA to AA. “After the decision by the UK electorate, we have reassessed our opinion of cohesion within the EU,” said the ratings agency.

Four months ago, S&P added that the EU would “come under pressure in an adverse scenario” if the UK did not pay at least €60bn.

British negotiators decided, correctly, not to publish an initial position paper on the “divorce bill” but to criticise the EU’s proposal instead. This reflected the reality that the strategic deployment of financial concessions as the talks progress is the best way to exert leverage over the EU.


Just as it makes complete sense for Barnier to demand that payment is agreed up front, it makes complete sense for the UK to resist such an agreement. This is obvious to anyone with the remotest idea of how to negotiate and with a modicum of respect for public money.

Yet Britain’s actions are presented, not least by taxpayer-funded journalists, in the worst possible light. Some would refuse point blank to pay anything to the EU. Certainly, the best way to secure favourable treatment for UK exports is to negotiate and lower our trade barriers to EU exports in return – with powerful EU export lobbies pressuring Brussels to concede.

And, in theory, if this divorce payment is designed to “buy” frictionless trade, the net payment should be in the UK’s favour, seeing as the EU sells much more to Britain than vice versa.

While all this is true, it was Britain that voted to leave – so, to depart amicably, the UK should be prepared to discuss payment.

The actual sum, though, should be finalised only as the negotiations close, then paid over a number of years, with the total reflecting the degree of cooperation shown by the EU between now and March 2019.

This “divorce bill” row isn’t surprising. Money is a highly visible, emotive issue. One side’s cash loss is, by definition, the other side’s gain.

Starting the Article 50 talks with money, when both sides are trying to score the first victory, was always going to bring deadlock, which is no doubt want Barnier wanted.

In 2016, the UK paid net £8.6bn to the EU. After March 2019, any settlement could be staged, as part of a one- or two-year transition period. The payments could be partly offset by the net tariff revenues the UK would receive if we were trading under World Trade Organisation rules, with no free-trade agreement.

To make progress, these Article 50 talks need to be robust – and that’s what we saw last week. Yet they need not be acrimonious – and cash payments, as long as they’re reasonable, can help smooth the way.

Swipe between articles
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Economic Agenda

UK holds the cards in EU ‘divorce bill’ row
Liam Halligan

The EU’s Brexit negotiators were apparently “flabbergasted” after their British counterparts launched a legal critique of the Brexit “divorce bill” last week.

UK civil servants spent three hours on a detailed line-by-line rebuttal of EU demands for a €100bn (£92bn) settlement. “It did not do down well,” said one Brussels source.

These Brexit negotiations just got serious – and not a moment too soon. The UK is under no legal obligation whatsoever to pay the EU to leave. I’ve never argued we should pay nothing and am not now. We want to exit on good terms, after all.

Yet when it comes to the financial side of these Article 50 talks, it is Britain, not the cash-strapped EU, that holds most of the cards.

The numbers Michel Barnier has been floating are ridiculous – beyond extortionate. There is also nothing sacred about the EU chief negotiator’s insistence we agree a multi-billion-pound payment before discussing anything else – citizens’ rights or trade, for instance.

Britain’s strength reflects not only the legal position but also the reality that Brexit leaves a gaping hole in the EU budget

How typical of the unaccountable, grotesquely self-important bureaucracy the European Commission has become that it insists on settling the question of more money for its own ludicrously inflated running costs before discussing issues of huge importance to citizens and businesses of the UK and the EU.

And how typical of our jaundiced broadcasters that such an insistence is taken for granted, accepted without question as eminently reasonable, while the UK is derided for pushing back.

Of course Britain should push back. We are talking about tens of billions of pounds, representing the hard work and tax payments of countless ordinary firms and households.

That amounts to dozens of hospitals, hundreds of new schools and thousands of teachers and nurses foregone.

“The Commission has set out its position and we have a duty to our taxpayers to interrogate it rigorously,” said David Davis, the Brexit Secretary, last Thursday. Damn right. This is real money, real public services. It is time the Eurocrats understood Britain need not pay a penny-bean. And we don’t need a trade deal to trade with the EU either.

The EU budget is set over seven-year cycles, currently covering 2014-20. It is because Brexit is scheduled for 2019, in the midst of such a period, that the notion of a “divorce bill” has arisen.

Estimates range across a broad spectrum. The Bruegel European think tank puts the net payment at €25bn to €65bn, once Britain receives its share of EU assets and repaid EU loans.

The Institute of Chartered Accountants reckons £5bn to £30bn, as the UK should not be liable for spending not committed to until after its departure.

In March 2017, a House of Lords report judged that the UK is not legally obliged to make any exit payment.

Britain’s strength reflects not only the legal position but also the reality that Brexit leaves a gaping hole in the EU budget.

The UK is the EU’s second-largest contributor. Since 2000, Britain has paid net €100bn to Brussels. Two weeks after the June 2016 referendum, Standard and Poor’s (S&P) downgraded the EU’s credit rating from AAA to AA. “After the decision by the UK electorate, we have reassessed our opinion of cohesion within the EU,” said the ratings agency.

Four months ago, S&P added that the EU would “come under pressure in an adverse scenario” if the UK did not pay at least €60bn.

British negotiators decided, correctly, not to publish an initial position paper on the “divorce bill” but to criticise the EU’s proposal instead. This reflected the reality that the strategic deployment of financial concessions as the talks progress is the best way to exert leverage over the EU.


Just as it makes complete sense for Barnier to demand that payment is agreed up front, it makes complete sense for the UK to resist such an agreement. This is obvious to anyone with the remotest idea of how to negotiate and with a modicum of respect for public money.

Yet Britain’s actions are presented, not least by taxpayer-funded journalists, in the worst possible light. Some would refuse point blank to pay anything to the EU. Certainly, the best way to secure favourable treatment for UK exports is to negotiate and lower our trade barriers to EU exports in return – with powerful EU export lobbies pressuring Brussels to concede.

And, in theory, if this divorce payment is designed to “buy” frictionless trade, the net payment should be in the UK’s favour, seeing as the EU sells much more to Britain than vice versa.

While all this is true, it was Britain that voted to leave – so, to depart amicably, the UK should be prepared to discuss payment.

The actual sum, though, should be finalised only as the negotiations close, then paid over a number of years, with the total reflecting the degree of cooperation shown by the EU between now and March 2019.

This “divorce bill” row isn’t surprising. Money is a highly visible, emotive issue. One side’s cash loss is, by definition, the other side’s gain.

Starting the Article 50 talks with money, when both sides are trying to score the first victory, was always going to bring deadlock, which is no doubt want Barnier wanted.

In 2016, the UK paid net £8.6bn to the EU. After March 2019, any settlement could be staged, as part of a one- or two-year transition period. The payments could be partly offset by the net tariff revenues the UK would receive if we were trading under World Trade Organisation rules, with no free-trade agreement.

To make progress, these Article 50 talks need to be robust – and that’s what we saw last week. Yet they need not be acrimonious – and cash payments, as long as they’re reasonable, can help smooth the way.

Swipe between articles
It isn't a "Divorce" it is in fact "Secession" and it appears TM is in the process of agreeing to pay £50 Billion in installments, and frankly it won't "Buy" anything, just settle the Tab.
Trade Deals will have to be negotiated with no chance of these payments affecting them regardless of how this is "Spun"
Pity that the "Cards" the UK hold are from a game of "Snap" when the EU is playing "Whist"
 

PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
It seems that you and I share many points of view, where we seem to differ is in faith in our Politicians Investors, Management and Media to have the "nous" to make this relatively small Politico-economic island of ours viable against far better organised competition than we have ever faced before.

I admire your optimism, I really do but for the life of me I cannot share it.
My assessment is that if we had had the skills we need for Brexit to succeed, We would have been able to guide and cajole the EU in the direction we wanted it to go, and not felt the urge to leave,yet we struggled to do even that.
"Lions led by donkeys" or perhaps "Jackasses" would be more appropriate.
We truly deserve better, we really do.
I suspect my 'blind' faith in authority comes from having spent many years in the military.
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
John Mills, a prominent party donor and chairman of Labour Leave, said calculations showed working class Labour voters “were right to back quitting the EU” because “they will see a boost to incomes that have been heavily depressed over the last decade”.

The report, New Model Economy for a Post-Brexit Britain, is published jointly by Labour Leave, Leave Means Leave and Economists for Free Trade.
The Labour Party has a right wing as well as a left and one doesn't need a crystal ball to recognise the 'Blairite' influence in the construction of this report, designed not to provide evidence of how 'Brexit' will improve the lot of the British people, but to undermine the Corbynite movement.

John Mills, the founder of the JML business which blossomed on the TV shopping channels, is no socialist and is a real-life 'Del-Boy', with at least one conviction for falsely selling tat as gold-plated jewellery. If this shyster told me the Pope is a Catholic, I would immediately seek a second opinion!

This multi-millionaire's tax write off donation to the Labour Party isn't about funding the left wing of the Party; it is about stimulating the 'Blairite' faction and hoping to gain favour again with the Murdoch group, the tory left and all the pink and yellow tories within the Westminster club.

Let no-one be fooled by this sudden appearance of the promise of a 'bright new dawn' post-'Brexit' with huge increases in incomes, particularly for the lower paid. Even the most optimistic, disinterested forecasters who have been studying the matter haven't been able to predict 'jam for all' once the UK is freed from the EU. Such claims have always been the province of the proven liars around Westminster and within the tory propaganda wing.

This latter-day intervention by the 'Blairites' is simply more lies and empty promises, no more than a continuation of the same nonsense first promulgated by UKIP and the other right-wing extremists on the British political scene.

Lincoln once said, 'You can fool some of the people all of the time; you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all of the people all of the time!'.........or is he going to be proved wrong here in the UK?

Tom
 
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PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
That is a very common trait though not all service personnel are affected by it.

Tom
Very true, even there you will find opposites. However, generally we did have the common-sense to understand that at some stage the talking has to stop and all attention needed to be focussed on the goal. Not a lot of point arriving at the station after the train has left? Let me make the point that such talking / discussion was actively encouraged, especially opposing views, on how best to achieve that goal and everyone with an input from across the board was invited. That done the decision was made and we all went away and did was agreed to be done, without question! To my mind that is the only way forward, the fact that you might not have swayed the decision with your input is irrelevant, at best experience and to be put to the back of your mind. To even think of continuing the argument by snipping and employing any other tactic would have consequences. BREXIT might not be a war but it is still needs opposing parties, in the UK, to come together if we are to achieve the best for ourselves - the politicians of all parties and sides need to understand this - quickly.
 
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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I suspect my 'blind' faith in authority comes from having spent many years in the military.
I do understand, coming from a Military Family, but there are moments of Epiphany, I recall Father's dismay when North Sea Oil was discovered saying "What the hell did I spend two years in the Western Desert Fighting Rommel for when the damned stuff is on our doorstep?"
 
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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
172
Dundee
I do understand, coming from a Military Family, but there are moments of Epiphany, I recall Father's dismay when North Sea Oil was discovered saying "What the hell did I spend two years in the Western Desert Fighting Rommel for when the damned stuff is on our doorstep?"
Humour was never far away and rarely PC.
 
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