Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Very true, even there you will find opposites. However, generally we did have the common-sense to understand that at some stage the talking has to stop and all attention needed to be focussed on the goal. Not a lot of point arriving at the station after the train has left? Let me make the point that such talking / discussion was actively encouraged, especially opposing views, on how best to achieve that goal and everyone with an input from across the board was invited. That done the decision was made and we all went away and did was agreed to be done, without question! To my mind that is the only way forward, the fact that you might not have swayed the decision with your input is irrelevant, at best experience and to be put to the back of your mind. To even think of continuing the argument by snipping and employing any other tactic would have consequences. BREXIT might not be a war but it is still needs opposing parties, in the UK, to come together if we are to achieve the best for ourselves - the politicians of all parties and sides need to understand this - quickly.

The drawback to your logic is that we don't want Brexit in any shape or form, regarding it as as good an idea as invading Russia.
How on Earth would you "make the best" of a decision like that?
Answer
Cancel it of course, a total non starter, and the quicker that is realised the better

 

[Woosh]

OG, I think a lot of people who voted to remain do so for economic reasons rather than share the idea of a United States of Europe.
However, if you want to keep to a coherent reasoning, to remain is to agree with the goals of the EU, forever closer union, read it as a new US of E.
You may find that if a second referendum is called, the winning margin for brexit would be clear cut.
People will come to terms much more rapidly on the cost of divorcing the EU than that of losing their country.
EFTA is the model for consensus. We will be out of the EU but stay very close to.

 

[oldgroaner]

Humour was never far away and rarely PC.

Our next door neighbour was in the Navy and on one convoy managed to get Torpedoed and sunk twice, as a corvette came up to him he swears that one of the Naval Ratings actually said out loud "Are you sure it's a good idea to pick him up?" it turn out this same sailor and boat had picked him up after the first sinking and he had been transferred off the ship only a couple of days before.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG, I think a lot of people who voted to remain do so for economic reasons rather than sharing the idea of a United States of Europe.
However, if you want to keep to a coherent reasoning, to remain is to agree with the goals of the EU, forever closer union, read it as a new US of E.
You may find that if a second referendum is called, the winning margin for brexit would be clear cut.
People will come to terms much more rapidly on the cost of divorcing the EU than of losing their country.

Where do you get this losing your country from? it's a Fantasy.
Will Germany and France be lost if the EU turns into a United States?
Of course not!
By your logic Germany would still be the 18 small principalities and America Seven separate nations.
Sorry that just isn't true is it?

 

[Woosh]

By your logic Germany would still be the 18 small principalities and America Seven separate nations.

they are united through language, families, culture, history. The US of E is built from political convictions without precedence.

 

[oldtom]

Where do you get this losing your country from? it's a Fantasy.
Will Germany and France be lost if the EU turns into a United States?
Of course not!
By your logic Germany would still be the 18 small principalities and America Seven separate nations.
Sorry that just isn't true is it?

It's just another lie. Indeed, it's basically the same lie as was used to keep us out of the common currency.

To suggest that France, Germany, Italy et al lost their sovereignty, their identity, their independence or anything at all when the € was adopted as the common currency proved to be a complete nonsense. Equally, to suggest such rubbish again is simply deliberate fearmongering by those who imagine a new source of profit for themselves somewhere down the line after secession.

The rest of the world is watching with incredulity as the UK commits Hara-Kiri on the international stage while all the potential trading partners know they will have us over a barrel once we are on our own.

Tom

 

[PeterL]

It's just another lie. Indeed, it's basically the same lie as was used to keep us out of the common currency.

To suggest that France, Germany, Italy et al lost their sovereignty, their identity, their independence or anything at all when the € was adopted as the common currency proved to be a complete nonsense. Equally, to suggest such rubbish again is simply deliberate fearmongering by those who imagine a new source of profit for themselves somewhere down the line after secession.

The rest of the world is watching with incredulity as the UK commits Hara-Kiri on the international stage while all the potential trading partners know they will have us over a barrel once we are on our own.

Tom

One could argue that some actually enhanced their position, at the expense of others and none more so than Germany as the Greek tragedy clearly shows. Their Finance Minister (name escapes me) has a very interesting story to tell.

 

[Woosh]

The rest of the world is watching with incredulity as the UK commits Hara-Kiri on the international stage while all the potential trading partners know they will have us over a barrel once we are on our own.

that's a bit of tunnel vision.
Our influence may or may not get smaller - there is no logic or proof to support your assertion unless you think we can steer EU's policy singlehandedly.
As for joining the Euro, you are incorrect. We could not stay in the ERM, a pre-requisite for monetary union. Our productivity is way behind Germany's and France's, even then, more so now.

 

[oldgroaner]

they are united through language, families, culture, history. The US of E is built from political convictions without precedence.

America has Spanish, Dutch, English, French and all the Eurasian People living there and of course the First Nation Tribes too.
Your assertion is simply incorrect.

 

[oldgroaner]

We could not stay in the ERM, a pre-requisite for monetary union. Our productivity is way behind Germany's and France's, even then, more so now.

Well that shoots the notion of Brexit down in Flames, doesn't it?

 

[Woosh]

America has Spanish, Dutch, English, French and all the Eurasian People living there and of course the First Nation Tribes too.
Your assertion is simply incorrect.

their situation is similar to other landlocked states, unified through geography and their lingua franca. The UK is not in the same situation.

 

[Woosh]

Well that shoots the notion of Brexit down in Flames, doesn't it?

on the contrary.
Brexit is the UK coming to a sensible answer to its future. It has to find its way that fits its needs and aspirations. Ask yourself the question why is it so few Brits speak fluently another language? the answer is nothing to do with lack of ability or laziness, it has more to do with the wide connections that the UK has with the USA, the ex-colonies and the huge number of English speaking people. The UK is a very special country.

 

[oldgroaner]

One could argue that some actually enhanced their position, at the expense of others and none more so than Germany as the Greek tragedy clearly shows. Their Finance Minister (name escapes me) has a very interesting story to tell.

Answer me these simple questions
Why did we fail so signally to do just that?
And why are we going to be any better at it outside the EU?
After all we didn't go in because we didn't need to did we.
We went in because we were in a desperate position.
And that is the reason, when History repeats itself we will crawl back trying to get in again.
There is only one question really
How many attempts will be needed? it took no less than Three last time.

 

[oldgroaner]

their situation is similar to other landlocked states, unified through geography and their lingua franca. The UK is not in the same situation.

I do believe one of these days someone will dig a tunnel under the channel and with luck put a railway and a thumping great Gas pipeline too, (and at a million channels of com channels on optic fibre.)
Come off it, the channel is no more that a ditch.
In the Far east they have Bridges longer than it is wide.

 

[Woosh]

I do believe one of these days someone will dig a tunnel under the channel and with luck put a railway and a thumping great Gas pipeline too, (and at a million channels of com channels on optic fibre.)

we don't even have a border with the ROI.
Following your reasoning, the ROI should have joined the UK.

 

[flecc]

One could argue that some actually enhanced their position, at the expense of others and none more so than Germany as the Greek tragedy clearly shows. Their Finance Minister (name escapes me) has a very interesting story to tell.

Which was entirely the fault of Greece, few countries have ever behaved so irresponsibly.
.

 

[flecc]

I do believe one of these days someone will dig a tunnel under the channel and with luck put a railway and a thumping great Gas pipeline too, (and at a million channels of com channels on optic fibre.)
Come off it, the channel is no more that a ditch.
In the Far east they have Bridges longer than it is wide.

Not to mention the cross channel electricity cables.

We are less separated by the ditch that the channel is, than France and Italy are separated by the Alps.
.

 

[Danidl]

on the contrary.
Brexit is the UK coming to a sensible answer to its future. It has to find its way that fits its needs and aspirations. Ask yourself the question why is it so few Brits speak fluently another language? the answer is nothing to do with lack of ability or laziness, it has more to do with the wide connections that the UK has with the USA, the ex-colonies and the huge number of English speaking people. The UK is a very special country.

Woosh, that is an extraordinary. Set of statements.
Previously and to about 1918 the UK was a global empire, it then started losing bits of its empire piece meal. It simply has not yet got over that.
The reason why the Brits are so bad with languages, and we Irish are not much better, is because of the legacy of that empire. English, or perhaps more properly American English is the single global language for commerce, trade, science(from which it took over from german), . When data sheets, instruction manuals, contracts are available in your native language, there is little incentive to learn others.
When Israelis or Russians or Germans appear on our TVs speaking English, it is always with an American intonation, not the BBC recieved accent.

 

[oldgroaner]

we don't even have a border with the ROI.
Following your reasoning, the ROI should have joined the UK.

It was in the EU remember?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Danidl]

we don't even have a border with the ROI.
Following your reasoning, the ROI should have joined the UK.

Careful now... We enjoyed 700 years of that partnership, but only joined the UK in 1801, following a campaign of bribery ( the Scots had enjoyed the same circus a hundred years previously). British beneficial practices then led to a famine whereby half the population disappeared, .. a number not dissimilar to the Holocaust, while Irish corn was being sent to England, and American Indians were donating maize to the starving Irish! .
The fundamental difference is that within the EU Ireland is a partner, whereas in the good old empire days Ireland was a subject or at best a client.