Brexit, for once some facts.

PeterL

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Aug 19, 2017
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But when viewed correctly through fullness of information, not so much shades of grey as black and white. Do you really think Blair's New Labour administration was remotely like Keir Hardy's trade union based Labour one? James Callaghan's was much nearer the mark and radically different from Blair's New Labour.
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Blair, and the others obviously thought that Labour needed to change if it were ever to be electable - I think he proved the point?

OK some of you, obviously not all, didn't like the step change and prefer not to represent the majority of middle England. I see history repeating itself here, Labour is hell bent on going back to being unelectable. All those worldly-lacking students you have lied to will begin to see the light as they grow up. Not all of them of course, some will never grow up and continue to lead protest marches to complain about anything and everything without ever offering anything in return.

That said, I do agree that James Callagan was generally a sound guy albeit some might say seriously flawed in beginning the process of breaking up the UK.
 

Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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But when viewed correctly through fullness of information, not so much shades of grey as black and white. Do you really think Blair's New Labour administration was remotely like Keir Hardy's trade union based Labour one? James Callaghan's was much nearer the mark and radically different from Blair's New Labour.
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What Blairs administration was or wasn't is irrelevant. Labour got him to power, as their leader. Yes, he may or may not have conned the entire electorate ( I actually think his intentions were good originally) and said the right things to unions before getting to no 10, but there is simply no getting away from the fact Blair was a product of the time and the Labour party. Without the latter he was nothing. It was, rather unfortunately as it turned out, a Labour administration. ( originally with full union backing and even after Blair had weakened unions ( which he did) they still gave him support. ( lesser of 2 evils perhaps)

Yes, its easy on here to say " I saw it coming wuth Blair" but fact is in 1997 if you were a long standing labour voter its about a 95% chance you voted for Blair. He appealed to all, hence his Landslide victory.
To say he wasn't Labour is actually dangerous, he could yet rise from oblivion...wonder what he chatted to Junker about ?? Birds of a feather ???
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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What Blairs administration was or wasn't is irrelevant. Labour got him to power, as their leader.
You really are confused. It was Blair's New Labour administration that ruled the country so it was very relevant. The Labour party governed nothing other than itself, so that was administratively irrelevant. It was just the Trojan horse that Blair used to get power, then discarding its principles.

You accord far too much system importance to political parties. They are not integral to our democratic system which can operate without them. They are just a convenient if somewhat imprecise indicator of the political leanings of the people we vote for.
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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You really are confused. It was Blair's New Labour administration that ruled the country so it was very relevant. The Labour party governed nothing other than itself, so that was administratively irrelevant. It was just the Trojan horse that Blair used to get power, then discarding its principles.

You accord far too much system importance to political parties. They are not integral to our democratic system which can operate without them. They are just a convenient if somewhat imprecise indicator of the political leanings of the people we vote for.
.
Would Blair have been PM without Labour Party ?
I am neither confused or being disingenuous.. You are believing your own rhetoric.
Its quite ridiculous to claim Blair was not Labour.
You believe what you want to believe.

A few year ago MUFC appointed LVG as manager. He altered everything, from top to bottom. The team never played like Utd teams of old. The didn't play with flair or adventure. They were dull to watch all the time, but the fact is win, lose or draw they were still MUFC.
No matter who Blair hoodwinked,no matter what administration he put in place, no matter who he appointed he was representing Labour. Labour elected him, Labour endorsed him, Labour voters put him in No10. If his policies did not reflect those of Labour that is entirely the fault of the Labour movement. Letting it happen is their responsibility. Saying he wasn't Labour is not taking responsibility and its probably why we will never see Labour in power in our life times. Perhaps Labour allowed themselves to be seduced by Blair and thoughts of power, who knows.
He was Labour, and you know it.
Its about time Labour stood up and took some responsibility for that particular catastrophe ( Blair and his wars) rather than pass the book claiming he was "New Labour" not our Labour. Labour gave us Tony Blair just as Tories gave us Thatcher.
 
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Woosh

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May 19, 2012
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Would Blair have been PM without Labour Party ?
No.
Would Labour get elected at the next GE without Blair?
Possibly but I don't think the UK will vote for a socialist government, ever.
So whoever will lead Labour to victory, I don't think he/she is going to be hardcore socialist.
 
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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
998
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Dundee
You really are confused. It was Blair's New Labour administration that ruled the country so it was very relevant. The Labour party governed nothing other than itself, so that was administratively irrelevant. It was just the Trojan horse that Blair used to get power, then discarding its principles.

You accord far too much system importance to political parties. They are not integral to our democratic system which can operate without them. They are just a convenient if somewhat imprecise indicator of the political leanings of the people we vote for.
.
We vote for Political Parties having listened to what they say and hopefully judging them by their earlier actions. Somewhat naively, I feel, in the hope that they mean what they say.

When I went to school it was the Party for a General Election and the Individual for a Local Election - that seems have been lost of late, Now it's simply the Party - good or bad!

Just as well that you're not a politician then!
 
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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So you are now saying Blair was a product of the right wing propoganda machine? Even though his predecessor ( Think it was Smith but don't quote me) was saying similar things...ie Labour needed to move towards centre to get power...Blair was a product of Labour. You have spouted some daft stuff OG but claiming Blair was somehow the product of Tories is the biggest load if BS yet..
Blair got all the traditional labour supporters, most of the floating and some of the tory...his first victory was a massive majority...( I think around 160)...Amazing how all these folk now claim they didn't support him..
Blair started the con the public...helped by Labour..
Nuts

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
 
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oldgroaner

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His think tank were missing some essential equipment... Bet they were lovely meetings !!! Think tank..would have been 4 folk sat around a table having disjointed arguments, all letting off self esteem...sounds familiar..
ICI, courtaulds,ford, twelve other major companies, run by the research institute for social change, at chequers, seven oaks, three day intensive sessions once monthly for six months, continuously recorded.
As you say , just a few thickos[emoji1]

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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
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Dundee
ICI, courtaulds,ford, twelve other major companies, run by the research institute for social change, at chequers, seven oaks, three day intensive sessions once monthly for six months, continuously recorded.
As you say , just a few thickos[emoji1]

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
How come we don't appear to have gained much from the meeting of those minds -- perhaps you've just forgotten? I can't believe, not for a second, that such a group would have been anything other than focussed on their own futures and respective bottom lines. Unless TB was the Chair?

Not sure if you would feel able to answer the question - but who were you representing?
 
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oldgroaner

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Nov 15, 2015
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Would Blair have been PM without Labour Party ?
I am neither confused or being disingenuous.. You are believing your own rhetoric.
Its quite ridiculous to claim Blair was not Labour.
You believe what you want to believe.

A few year ago MUFC appointed LVG as manager. He altered everything, from top to bottom. The team never played like Utd teams of old. The didn't play with flair or adventure. They were dull to watch all the time, but the fact is win, lose or draw they were still MUFC.
No matter who Blair hoodwinked,no matter what administration he put in place, no matter who he appointed he was representing Labour. Labour elected him, Labour endorsed him, Labour voters put him in No10. If his policies did not reflect those of Labour that is entirely the fault of the Labour movement. Letting it happen is their responsibility. Saying he wasn't Labour is not taking responsibility and its probably why we will never see Labour in power in our life times. Perhaps Labour allowed themselves to be seduced by Blair and thoughts of power, who knows.
He was Labour, and you know it.
Its about time Labour stood up and took some responsibility for that particular catastrophe ( Blair and his wars) rather than pass the book claiming he was "New Labour" not our Labour. Labour gave us Tony Blair just as Tories gave us Thatcher.
He was representing the press that supported him after the sleaze revealed about Tory politicians, and it was press support plus pretending to represent labour that got him in.
How convenient for the establishment when the first choice was in disgrace, to have someone they could pass off as labour, but still walk the walk and talk the talk for them.
And by your own admission you fell for it, didn't you?

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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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He was representing the press that supported him after the sleaze revealed about Tory politicians, and it was press support plus pretending to represent labour that got him in.
How convenient for the establishment when the first choice was in disgrace, to have someone they could pass off as labour, but still walk the walk and talk the talk for them.
And by your own admission you fell for it, didn't you?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
Yes, I voted Labour...sort of like vast majority of us did in 1997...
He was funded by unions, who he stabbed in the back.
 
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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ICI, courtaulds,ford, twelve other major companies, run by the research institute for social change, at chequers, seven oaks, three day intensive sessions once monthly for six months, continuously recorded.
As you say , just a few thickos[emoji1]

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk
Oh how the mighty fall. You end up on here...talking the same tosh.

Was it the model T you discussed with Ford or perhaps the Edsel.?

Besides earlier you said you worked removing stuff from fans in a boiler factory, probably the stuff you put there I,d guess. Make your mind up OG. What were you ?
 
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Wisper Bikes

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Apr 11, 2007
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Sevenoaks Kent
It will be many years before Wisper has the profile of Kalkhoff or KTM,but the whole e-bike business may fall out because the costs are too high.
KudosDave
When I tell people the price of the new high end Wisper Carbon Full Sus some blanch others are impressed. Bikes parts can be super expensive but some are willing to pay for the best. These people are mainly those that will not be badly effected by Brexaster!
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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How come we don't appear to have gained much from the meeting of those minds -- perhaps you've just forgotten? I can't believe, not for a second, that such a group would have been anything other than focussed on their own futures and respective bottom lines. Unless TB was the Chair?

Not sure if you would feel able to answer the question - but who were you representing?
American Standard as if that helps
And quite frankly a very great deal of what you see around you was first mooted there, including for instance an energy independent home using heat pump technology, solar and wind power applications, recycled heat from the houses own septic tank, which would process and purify the waste and output compressed waste pellets that could be collected and used either as fuel or fertiliser.
All services such was washing Machines and refrigerators built in to into a duct to be maintained from outside the building, food and other supplies to be ordered remotely.

We were fortunate to have access (this would be 1979) to two of the French Minitel system terminals to play with and thought it had great potential (every home should have one)
And the use of holograms to provide virtual windows in internal rooms. where there had been developments of multi storey blocks where external faces were at a premium
We also foresaw the large lCD screens and their applications long before they existed.
A4 sized panels that could be used as books....wonder what became of that?
Great fun back then, imagining you could have the full wall of your living room looking out to a real time full colour moving hologram of a tropical beach with sound and smells to match.
Remember how small TV's were back then?

There were Projects too, one I took part in was for a Charity called Earth Stewards who were interested in developing packaging for Disaster aid that was modular and could, once emptied be assembled into emergency shelters, it was made from a waterproof grade of papier mache, and included conductive tapes that could be connected to low voltage emergency lighting.

Still waiting for the Living room wall Tropical Beach hologram so I can watch the waves break on the beach and feel the Breeze as it ruffles the leaves in the Palm trees.

So many ideas, so much enthusiasm at the time, and when it was all over, we never heard another word.
But over the years many of the things we spoke of appeared.

Co incidence? that some ideas came to fruition? quite possibly, but you have to ask why major companies went to such a considerable expense for no return.
Perhaps they wanted to explore where the imaginations of their Boffins would take them if they were let loose?
See just how mad they really are?
And I have to say all of us that took part loved every minute!
 
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oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer

Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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'Centre ground in politics', I heard someone say. Where fascism is growing, based upon lies and hatred against any one group or groups, There can be no centre ground. Either you are with the fascists and part of the problem or you are ant-fascist, fighting against that evil, hopefully to provide a solution.

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2017/09/there-is-no-moderate-centre-ground-when.html

Tom
Garbage as usual.And the exact attitude keeping labour out of power.

The centre ground is where compromise can be found, either end aare the danger zones. If we look back through history I,d guess the extreme left have provided us with more tyrants than other end. To be fair TB is the worst offender from the centre..
And, counteracting extreme of any character can simply justify worse behaviour than that being battled against. I think you typify this. Your insults and attitude only serves to make others worse but you justify it with wrongs , some imagined, all exaggerated.
Look how you react to me because you disagree, look how you insulted Tilson for similar reasons. Look how you describe all tories. Look how you describe leavers.
Woosh deserves a medal for patience he has shown in replying to you.

You have less idea about what a Troll is than OG has about Blair.Sweet FA.
 
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