Brexit, for once some facts.

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I don't think we would be obliged to join Schengen because we don't have land border with EU states except the ROI which is a special case.

You don't think? What makes you think your opinion is in anyway qualified to comment or reassure?

Also why is it a special case??.... its a land border between the EU / UK. The fact you, I, the UK think its special is irrelevant. It'll be up to the EU, its their border with us, just as much as it is our border with them.

 

[Woosh]

The fact you, I, the UK think its special is irrelevant. It'll be up to the EU, its their border with us, just as much as it is our border with them.

NI/ROI border is a special case, don't blame me, it is considered by both the EU and the UK to be a separate issue.

You don't think? What makes you think your opinion is in anyway qualified to comment or reassure?

This thread is an echo chamber for remainers. I don't mind that it is, but I post what I think is the voice of the silent majority.

 

[oldgroaner]

when there are nearly as many voters on one side as on the other, any lasting solution must be a compromise, to minimize the number of losers.
If you look at the agreed policies, they comprise: visa free travel, continued arrangement for pensioners to retire to Southern Europe, maintaining European integrated manufacturing, the absence of physical border between NI and the ROI, some control on immigration and social benefits. These things are only possible after brexit if we remain very close to the EU.
The reason that I said cpmmon sense started to return is that we have achieved some sort of agreed policies.
That rules out hard brexit.

Your statement has elements of truth in it, particularly this bit
"any lasting solution must be a compromise, to minimize the number of losers."

The only possible way to do that is to cancel Brexit, beg forgiveness and become a real active member of the EU

If we don't the Government won't have to face 17 point something Million angry bad losers

But over 65 million of them, who will be Much more motivated than the gamblers who voted for Brexit, who incidentally won't be very happy either anyway, as they are suffering too, and don't like it one bit.

The problem for the Government is actually very simple, their actions demonstrate they are exploring many separate avenues intended to shift the blame when the Proverbial Hits the Fan.
They know damned well Brexit is a Disaster in progress.

The hope from their point of view is to keep it tottering along till they have milked the opportunities it represents for a National Closing down sale, and make off with the Swag, leaving someone else to clear up the mess.
Haven't you noticed the attacks on Corbyn no longer fill the pages of the Tory Press?
He's the Fall Guy of choice.

Cameron set them an example they have clearly taken to heart.

 

[Woosh]

If we don't the Government won't have to face 17 point something Million angry bad losers

that will inevitably be tested at the next GE.
The stake is high for all political parties but although I think brexit is inevitable, I do think that soft brexit is an acceptable compromise and the EFTA route may deliver more cake on the long term.

 

[oldgroaner]

This thread is an echo chamber for remainers. I don't mind that it is, but I post what I think is the voice of the silent majority.

Let me help you with that
The silent majority are silent for a reason either

1. The have no understanding of the situation
2. They are bored with it all and more interested in Facebook
3. They are too afraid for the future to do other than hope

Very little of what you post is within a million miles of any of those aspects of Apathy, ignorance, and Wishful thinking which is far more likely to be the mood of the silent majority.

Hull may not be typical but people don't talk about Brexit at all, regarding it as out of their hands in every way.

"Keep Calm and Hope" would be the slogan most likely to reflect the mood of the silent masses.

This thread accurately reflects one thing.
No one has ever come up with a convincing properly researched and positive reason that Brexit isn't the biggest Political Blunder this country has ever made.

 

[Danidl]

NI/ROI border is a special case, don't blame me, it is considered by both the EU and the UK to be a separate issue.



This thread is an echo chamber for remainers. I don't mind that it is, but I post what I think is the voice of the silent majority.

The ROI UK border is a special case for a number of legal reasons.
The Ireland act of 1922, the long standing rights of Irish citizens to live and work in the UK bilaterally.
The Good Friday agreement copper fastened a number of outstanding issues. And this has been listed as an international agreement at the UN and EU.

Woosh has been consistent in the belief that independence from the ECJ and the right to make their own laws has been the driving force behind Brexit, however illusionary that might be.....

 

[oldgroaner]

.having said that there are people who can solve the cube in seconds.

I can, and did
At a Management meeting once, we walked in to find a Rubix Cube in Front of everyone which our Personnel Director was going to use in some arcane fashion.
Ignoring him I took the cube below the desk and noted that one of the middle squares on one side had a clip on cover,(There was a trace of moulding flash in the gap) and it easily prised off with my swiss army knife to reveal a pozi screw and a loading spring, which when released allowed all the square segments to be slid off the supporting cross, and it was a simple matter to rebuild the cube with all the correct colours on each side.
At this point I looked up and realised he had stopped speaking and was looking at me.
With a smile I Iifted the cube onto the desk and smiled at him.
"You cheated! he cried, so with that I gave the cube a few turns and threw it to him..."Prove it!" was my response.

He complained to the MD and the Md's Secretary confided later that the MD wasn't sympathetic, remaking "Well what did you expect him to do? he's an Engineer after all!", and later the MD had said to her, "I can't help wonder how he did that...but it was funny!"

 

[Woosh]

This thread accurately reflects one thing.
No one has ever come up with a convincing properly researched and positive reason that Brexit isn't the biggest Political Blunder this country has ever made.

brexit represents an aspiration. Many of those who voted for it felt that the EU does next to nothing for them and they want a change of direction. They are not going to change that view anytime soon.

 

[oldgroaner]

brexit represents an aspiration. Many of those who voted for it felt that the EU does next to nothing for them and they want a change of direction. They are not going to change that view anytime soon.

Over simplification,when they had in fact little to no idea of what the EU does for them having been lied to for so long, but they did know the Government wanted it, and they were inclined to be against it for that reason.

 

[Woosh]

I can, and did

the rubix cube reminds me of good old days at uni - I used to impress the girls with my Rubix speed I give the cube to them and challenge them to make it as difficult as possible and wager I'd solve it in one minute or less. Much easier to break the ice than a drink or dare game.

 

[oldgroaner]

the rubix cube reminds me of good old days at uni - I used to impress the girls with my Rubix speed I give the cube to them and challenge them to make it as difficult as possible and wager I'd solve it in one minute or less. Much easier to break the ice than a drink or dare game.

Now that's what I call an innovative application!

 

[Woosh]

The ROI UK border is a special case for a number of legal reasons.
The Ireland act of 1922, the long standing rights of Irish citizens to live and work in the UK bilaterally.
The Good Friday agreement copper fastened a number of outstanding issues. And this has been listed as an international agreement at the UN and EU.

Woosh has been consistent in the belief that independence from the ECJ and the right to make their own laws has been the driving force behind Brexit, however illusionary that might be.....

At present, to apply for Irish passport, one parent or grand parent must be Irish. About 6 million UK citizens have at least one Irish parent or grand parent, if the Irish government also allows great grand parent to qualify then that number would probably jumps up to 20 millions.

 

[oldtom]

after Brexit,as it stands,they will have no Spanish healthcare support....even now it is being made difficult for them,so they see the future.
KudosDave

Increasingly over recent years, Brits and other non-Spanish people who have chosen not to secure full 'residencia' have discovered that some hospital admin people in charge of costing treating for whatever caused them to be housed there are not interested in an E111 - a Mastercard or Visa card is what they want and if it doesn't cover the total bill, there will be further action to secure full payment.

To be fair, quite a number have really taken the proverbial, imagining that they are automatically covered for everything for free including flu jabs. As for the retired, they really ought to apply for 'residencia' as that provides similar benefits to the UK in regards to travel passes, health care and disabled driver permits for example. The tax situation is different but is not punitive for most people.

When correspondents pontificate on this forum about matters they know little about, I always feel I should be able to click a button which says 'That's absolute nonsense!'. It's a shame the forum software cannot do that automatically!

Here is a brief though not definitive synopsis of Spanish 'Residencia':

Residencia

Spanish Residency

Without a Residencia you are not legally entitled to stay in Spain more than 90 days without returning to the UK or home country or applying for a Temporary Residence Permit. (This seems to be largely ignored but it is the law and applies even if you have bought a property and moved in.) Here for over six months and the law says you must apply for a full Residential permit. It is initially for two years then in 5 year periods.

Benefits

Benefit or not? Only you can decide if it is good for you.

Applying for Residencia does not lose you any of your rights as a British Passport holder. It does mean that if you have your Residencia you don't pay Capital Gains Tax if you sell your property. Likewise if you sell your property it is easier to take your money out of the country if returning to the UK or other home country. If you are stopped for a traffic offence without a residencia, the car can be impounded until you pay. Pensioners holding a confirmed Residencia who join the Pensionista Club are also entitled to the same benefits as Spanish Nationals, reduced rail and bus fares, reduced cost holidays in good hotels etc.

Tom

 

[Woosh]

As for the retired, they really ought to apply for 'residencia' as that provides similar benefits to the UK in regards to travel passes, health care and disabled driver permits for example. The tax situation is different but is not punitive for most people.

I reckon the tax issue is the reason why many don't want to be permanently relocated. Personal tax has been substantially lower in the UK for all my working life and with lots of allowances.
For France, E111 card does not qualify for non emergency treatments.

 

[anotherkiwi]

The English ex-pat ghetto situation is pretty bad here in France too: "We really should learn some French one day!". Yeah right and in the meantime it is tea at 5 and buying the cakes in English after owning a house in France for over 5 years... Sure some make the effort but they seem to be in the minority. And as soon as they realise your mother tongue is English they only ever address you in that language. I have taken to replying in Spanish just to keep them confused/shame them...

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

but I post what I think is the voice of the silent majority.

I didn't mean why do you bother to post.

What I meant was why say this?

I don't think we would be obliged to join Schengen

What makes you think this?? The problem with this whole EU debate is people thinking their opinion is relevant, to the facts. So many people voted on emotion, or opinion... when in many cases their emotions are based on lies and their opinions are simply wrong.

So I'll ask it again in a slightly different way.

What on earth has given you the opinion that despite the fact that all (100%) members of EFTA are currently in the Schengen agreement, the UK could walk in as a new member, and benefit from the agreement with the EU that EFTA has and yet not be required to submit to the same terms the rest of the EFTA members have agreed to?

Surely if we want to be in EFTA, and not Schengen, the other EFTA members will have a couple of questions to ask?

The whole point of EFTA is the four freedoms.

http://www.efta.int/eea/policy-areas

Free movement of persons is one of the core freedoms of the European Internal Market. This area is covered by Article 28 of the EEA Agreement, Annex V on the Free Movement of Workers and Annex VIII on the Right of Establishment. Accordingly, nationals of the EEA EFTA States (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) have the same right as EU citizens to take up an economic activity anywhere in the EU/EEA without being discriminated against on the grounds of their nationality. Equally, EU citizens have the right to work and reside in the EEA EFTA States. Non-economically active persons such as pensioners, students and family members of EEA nationals are also entitled to move and reside anywhere in the EU/EEA subject to certain conditions as set out in the relevant EU legislation.

We can't simply pick and choose. No matter how much you "think" we'll be able to.

 

[oldtom]

Woosh has been consistent in the belief that independence from the ECJ and the right to make their own laws has been the driving force behind Brexit, however illusionary that might be.....

I wonder what on earth the said 'Woosh' sees as a benefit for British people to be outside the realm of influence of the ECJ.

'Woosh' may have been consistent but for me he continues to be consistently wrong in his notion that, free from the sensible constraints of ECJ agreed principles of justice, better things can be achieved by the British people or perhaps that should be, for the British people.

In reality, losing the resort of the ECJ takes ordinary people..... that's the kind of people who need to work hard for their living then pay taxes from their pittance..... back to feudal times.

Tom

 

[anotherkiwi]

I didn't mean why do you bother to post.

What I meant was why say this?



What makes you think this?? The problem with this whole EU debate is people thinking their opinion is relevant, to the facts. So many people voted on emotion, or opinion... when in many cases their emotions are based on lies and their opinions are simply wrong.

So I'll ask it again in a slightly different way.

What on earth has given you the opinion that despite the fact that all (100%) members of EFTA are currently in the Schengen agreement, the UK could walk in as a new member, and benefit from the agreement with the EU that EFTA has and yet not be required to submit to the same terms the rest of the EFTA members have agreed to?

Surely if we want to be in EFTA, and not Schengen, the other EFTA members will have a couple of questions to ask?

The whole point of EFTA is the four freedoms.

http://www.efta.int/eea/policy-areas

Free movement of persons is one of the core freedoms of the European Internal Market. This area is covered by Article 28 of the EEA Agreement, Annex V on the Free Movement of Workers and Annex VIII on the Right of Establishment. Accordingly, nationals of the EEA EFTA States (Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein) have the same right as EU citizens to take up an economic activity anywhere in the EU/EEA without being discriminated against on the grounds of their nationality. Equally, EU citizens have the right to work and reside in the EEA EFTA States. Non-economically active persons such as pensioners, students and family members of EEA nationals are also entitled to move and reside anywhere in the EU/EEA subject to certain conditions as set out in the relevant EU legislation.

We can't simply pick and choose. No matter how much you "think" we'll be able to.

I think leaving the EU and joining EFTA would be great for the British worker. Look at social policy in the 4 current members states, worker protection, minimum wage, health care... Can the UK step up to the wicket and raise its standards to those of the EFTA member countries?

 

[Woosh]

We can't simply pick and choose. No matter how much you "think" we'll be able to.

you have made up your mind that EFTA is not the way.
No point for me to try to change yours, is there?

 

[oldtom]

We can't simply pick and choose. No matter how much you "think" we'll be able to.

My opinion of David Davis is that he is singularly ill-equipped for the task which seems to have become a battle of wits with the EU's finest. He is not even half-prepared and I have wondered at times where he gets his stupid ideas from. On occasions, I actually wonder if 'Woosh' is employed as one of his advisers.

Tom