Yes, we should copy all the good bits from them and leave the bad bits out.
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
You got that one right it seems from the news today.
legal-loophole-means-crown-prosecution-service-has-chickened-out-of-election-expenses-fraud-trials
Tom
Ironically that's what the EU did when copying the Japanese law, they took the 250 watts and 25 km/h assist limit, but left out the very early fierce phase down of power.
You probably think they should also have left out pedelec control and the 25 km/h, but I'm happy with those for utility cycling.
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Think we are cross purposes ...yes certain people have benefitted...but only because government have accepted rulings.
You have not answered anything about erosion of conditions for those mentioned.
Flecc offers a good explanation as to why we are almost a single party democracy, but fails to see this process has also happened whilst in EU??
Come on KTM look beyond cycle industry. Look at all those I,ve mentioned, look at shop workers, no hour contracts.
Its a fact that over last 15 years majority of uk workers are working under worse service conditions / benefits than 15 years ago. Where are EU directives preventing this ?
Think a lot on here are being very blinkered and not looking beyond their own employment.
Just ask people are they under more stress,working harder, longer, with reduced benefits than 15 years ago. EU has overseen that erosion engineered by the tories whilst Labour are in disarray, along with reasons Flecc explained.
Zero hour contracts are a perfect example. In UK around 1 million people are on them. In 34% it is their sole income. They are banned in 9 EU countries. Not ours and no EU wide policy. So what have EU done to protect workers on these contracts. Nothing.
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Since when have zero hour contracts been forced on us by the EU??
So you're complaining now that the EU should be dictating to us, and you want to leave so that we have more control over something we already have total control over?? You do realise the things you are complaining about have a big FAT zero to do with our membership of the EU, or indeed the EU at all.
Yes, to be fair I'd love the EU to be involved with that, but your problem is with UK policies... which we're about to get more of.
Ok, which bad bit? and who are you going to employ to work that out? We can currently take and leave bits... so what's the point of leaving, we're just increasing Admin costs massively with zero benefit.
That's not the point at all. I never said they had either. The fact is we have Zero hour contracts , knowing full well they are a terrible way to behave...and yet the EU is powerless to prevent them. Its left to our own Government. So stop saying EU has benefitted workers. It has not. They might wish to do so but either cant or don't want to. Any good conditions we get are because Government accepts them.
Just go talk to a fire service operative. Ask what benefit EU was when contracts were altered. EU has done nothing. It cant. Its just the other side of propoganda that they have. Just speak to workers KTM..
a) Zero hours Contracts ( with and without EU)
b) Google Fire Service contracts. ( BTW May's husband stands to benefit with demise of fire service. He,s a shareholder in G4)
The issue is not EU, Brexit, in or out. The real issue is Tory domination of country. All this angst is misdirected against leavers. It should be against Tory strangle hold because of utter chaos in Labour. That will continue in or out the EU.
Personally would love to see a Labour government led by the clever Miliband and us out of EU...
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OMG, so you're complaining that the EU doesn't enforce employment law on the UK in some areas... so because it has no influence on this area, you want to leave to leave the EU and hand full control to the Tory government.
Really.... you can't see the problem with this?
Next thing you'll be suggesting foxes should vote tory because JC isn't a credible leader....
I haven't failed to see the effect of the EU, but accept that the EU quite rightly does not interfere with the internal politics of a country.
I'm quite sure that the broadly socialist EU is far from happy with the political scene in the UK, but cannot and would not intervene.
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Tossers. I detest all of them.
My local Tory MP is one of those under suspicion, the Labour candidate is a barrister (what does he care about ordinary working people and what's his motive?) and the Lib Dem candidate is totally unremarkable.
Great choices for next months election.
KTM
You just don't understand the point..
I,ll try again.
This is the EU " policy" on Animal Welfare/ Cruelty.
Animal welfare
With the support and close co-operation of the Member States, the European Commission has been promoting animal welfare for over 40 years gradually improving the lives of farm animals. An important step in 1998 was Council Directive 98/58/EC on the protection of animals kept for farming purposes which gave general rules for the protection of animals of all species kept for the production of food, wool, skin or fur or for other farming purposes, including fish, reptiles or amphibians. These rules are based on the European Convention for the Protection of Animals kept for Farming PurposesSearch for available translations of the preceding linkEN••• and they reflect the so-called 'Five Freedoms':
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Freedom from hunger and thirst
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Freedom from discomfort
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Freedom from pain, injury and disease
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Freedom to express normal behaviour
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Freedom from fear and distress
The operative word is promoting. The can DO nothing...so Spain a major long standing member of EU just ignore it all. Carry on bull fighting etc etc. So what have EU done about animal Welfare in EU. They have promoted good practice...but done nothing. The countries that choose to follow guidelines would have done so anyway. Si in meantime folk are employed as MEP' s to discuss and promote welfare.
Its the same in every field ( pardon the pun)
Any good practice adopted is chosen by individual countries. The EU does NOTHING.
Same with worker's welfare. They suggest and offer directives. Our government for the sake of Mike Ashley and co pick and chose which they want.
The responsibility is therefore at feet of government in power for both good and bad.
If this were not case the entire EU would have banned Zero hour contracts. They have not, because it cant. Its a useless pointless organisation that has achieved what governments let them achieve.Fact.
You just don't understand the point..
I,ll try again.
This is the EU " policy" on Animal Welfare/ Cruelty.
Animal welfare
With the support and close co-operation of the Member States, the European Commission has been promoting animal welfare for over 40 years gradually improving the lives of farm animals. An important step in 1998 was Council Directive 98/58/EC on the protection of animals kept for farming purposes which gave general rules for the protection of animals of all species kept for the production of food, wool, skin or fur or for other farming purposes, including fish, reptiles or amphibians. These rules are based on the European Convention for the Protection of Animals kept for Farming PurposesSearch for available translations of the preceding linkEN••• and they reflect the so-called 'Five Freedoms':
•
Freedom from hunger and thirst
•
Freedom from discomfort
•
Freedom from pain, injury and disease
•
Freedom to express normal behaviour
•
Freedom from fear and distress
The operative word is promoting. The can DO nothing...so Spain a major long standing member of EU just ignore it all. Carry on bull fighting etc etc. So what have EU done about animal Welfare in EU. They have promoted good practice...but done nothing. The countries that choose to follow guidelines would have done so anyway. Si in meantime folk are employed as MEP' s to discuss and promote welfare.
Its the same in every field ( pardon the pun)
Any good practice adopted is chosen by individual countries. The EU does NOTHING.
Same with worker's welfare. They suggest and offer directives. Our government for the sake of Mike Ashley and co pick and chose which they want.
The responsibility is therefore at feet of government in power for both good and bad.
If this were not case the entire EU would have banned Zero hour contracts. They have not, because it cant. Its a useless pointless organisation that has achieved what governments let them achieve.Fact.
You should have posted the link below instead Zlatan, a scathing view of the EU in this respect:
Animal welfare and the EU
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I'm really trying to understand you... I am.
So you're saying we should leave the EU because they are doing nothing.
What I don't understand is how you think that makes sense??
If they are doing nothing, then you're blaming the national governments, yes? So us leaving the EU will improve things how??
Yes, it achieves what governments what it to achieve, because its a club, run by those governments. Its achieved lots! You seem to want it to control domestic law, and the fact it isn't is reason to leave?
I clearly don't understand your logic.
No, I,m saying that if a member state so wishes it can,and does, ignore whatever it likes.Once that is the case the responsibility is with the country.( I,m not passing judgement either way, its simply how it is)
If a teacher walked in a class and said follow these rules if you wish, behave when and what you feel you can with that teacher could claim no responsibility for any good behaviour. It would be the kids deciding. So even without the teacher the kids would carry on in same vain. Making directives, rules,policies etc etc voluntary completely negates their use, so why have that level of bureaucracy ...which is all it becomes. A bureacratic exercise, yes with all right intentions but ultimately useless, as demonstrated by our Tory governments, Spains intransigence with animal cruelty, Frances scant regard for common vehicle testing,licensing..etc etc etc.
Like I,ve said before the real problem is lack of being able to take our government to task,in or out of EU is ultimately irrelevant.
Suppose we stayed in EU, Teresa May could on 8th June reduce minimum pay, increase retirement age, stop benefits and close NHS. EU could do nothing..
What is point of an organisation spending billions on policy which we can all ignore.??
We need a caring government , in or out of EU would be totally socially irrelevant then. That's what we should be getting angry about, we shouldn't need to caring bureaucrat in Belgium to advise our government.
Our priority should be to vote in a caring leader. If we can find one.
... Zatlan, curious about zero hrs contracts .. does an employer pay a standing charge to the employee for the right to call them out as a contingency , and then pay a higher rate when they are actually working for them?. If so I don't see a problem with them if not then it is slavery.
.... I wouldn't respond to whether the UK wants or needs a caring leader ... That's internal politics. , What I am responding to is the underlying assumptions made in your first statement about how the EU operates.
The EU generates policies and directives. National governments can seek derogations from these at the design stage. Unless they seek a derogation, the policy will apply to them, .. this is reasonable as they had input into the decision. The national government then implements the regulation. If the national government fails to implement a regulation to which they were signed up to, within a reasonable timeframe the EU will prosecute and ultimately fines get levied. Likewise if a national government fails to prosecute offenders , for regulations which they had agreed to the EU will also fine after due process.
It normally takes a whistleblower or an aggrieved party to inform the EU that the country is not abiding by their committments , before a prosecution commences.... Since the EU does not have its own police force. Aggrieved parties can be commercial competitors, trade unions, concerned action citizens or indeed the respective governments in any of the EU countries...
So where does Spain stand on bull fighting ? Or UK on worsening working conditions for workers..abd if there is no problem with Zero hour contracts how come 9 ( caring?) EU countries have banned them..
Or in other words EU does not have legislation to prevent worse conditions of service being forced on employees.( as they were with Firefighters)
Its same old story with EU has all the right phrases , aims and objectives in place but nothing to show for it..Or perhaps I,m imagining workers are worse off than they were 20 years ago?
Adding to the above: the EU working on policies and directives as a group is more cost effective than individual countries doing it alone. For companies bringing products and services to market across multiple national borders it is also a cost savings (ask the Chinese). And having a central court of justice also makes things easier for business in case of eventual litigation.