Brexit, for once some facts.

[anotherkiwi]

So where does Spain stand on bull fighting ? Or UK on worsening working conditions for workers..abd if there is no problem with Zero hour contracts how come 9 ( caring?) EU countries have banned them..
Or in other words EU does not have legislation to prevent worse conditions of service being forced on employees.( as they were with Firefighters)
Its same old story with EU has all the right phrases , aims and objectives in place but nothing to show for it..Or perhaps I,m imagining workers are worse off than they were 20 years ago?

1. You have been going there for years even owning a house there IIRC? Just pick up any Spanish newspaper or jump onto any Spanish news web site and you will see the answer to that question.

2. Didn't you have a PM called Thatcher? She is the one who laid down the basis for your current work legislation by crushing the trade unions.

A new president in France has said he wants to push forward on social legislation across the remaining 27 countries. I think that he will not have his hands free to do all that he wants in France and he sees that the EU is the key to having social and business policies implemented. This is my own personal opinion, I didn't read it anywhere.

 

[Zlatan]

I think FBU should get somebody off here to negotiate with government, they could quote all these meaninglesss directives..

This isa comment from FBU

We regard the transitional arrangements, which force younger firefighters into having to work on to age 60 are totally unrealistic. We will pursue the argument for our members in whatever venue is likely to deliver us the correct result.”

The government have just won in tribunal over retirement age going to 60 for all fire service, with other worsening conditions of service.
Fire Service aren't getting any help from EU, neither did Police, neither did Teachers...
And Zero hour contracts continue..
And KTM imagine bringing a family up with your only employment on Zero hours. No mortgage, no financial security...You claim to support EU for socially minded reasons but support a principle which works only for the business and not for workers. Thought EU was against that sory of thing.?

 

[Zlatan]

1. You have been going there for years even owning a house there IIRC? Just pick up any Spanish newspaper or jump onto any Spanish news web site and you will see the answer to that question.

2. Didn't you have a PM called Thatcher? She is the one who laid down the basis for your current work legislation by crushing the trade unions.

A new president in France has said he wants to push forward on social legislation across the remaining 27 countries. I think that he will not have his hands free to do all that he wants in France and he sees that the EU is the key to having social and business policies implemented. This is my own personal opinion, I didn't read it anywhere.

Yes, exactly and Thatcher was appointed PM 7 years after we joined EU. The EU stopped nothing, my area was devastated..not a single EU directive seen.
And I worked in a mining village from 79 to 90 and witnessed first hand kids almost starving, police from London on treble wages assaulting miners and families searching slag heaps looking for useable coal to heat homes with...and where was EU ? Sat writing directives whilst families were torn apart...dont talk to me about Thatcher. Or Blair...or Cameron..but what did EU do during any of those problems. Sod all.Not in their remit to protect people.?
Its remainers who have been conned. All these measures to protect individuals are just an illusion when times get hard.
Your example of Thatcher and what she did is a perfect example. She did what she wanted with not a thought towards EU, as would May even if we stayed in.Its a utopian dream world remainers are living in. Don't kid yourselves, if Tories want to do something the EU certainly won't stop them, losing power is the only limit they see.
To this day Thatcher is still hated in some regions and I have never voted Tory and never will but how on earth can anybody expect Labour to hold the remotest challenge with Corbyn saying stuff he does. Even taking Fleccs reasoning into account Labour have collapsed beyond that. I simply could not vote for Corbyn, which is the crux of our current situation. Not Brexit. It really will make no difference in or out, the last 15 years have proved that.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I think FBU should get somebody off here to negotiate with government, they could quote all these meaninglesss directives..

This isa comment from FBU

We regard the transitional arrangements, which force younger firefighters into having to work on to age 60 are totally unrealistic. We will pursue the argument for our members in whatever venue is likely to deliver us the correct result.”

The government have just won in tribunal over retirement age going to 60 for all fire service, with other worsening conditions of service.
Fire Service aren't getting any help from EU, neither did Police, neither did Teachers...
And Zero hour contracts continue..
And KTM imagine bringing a family up with your only employment on Zero hours. No mortgage, no financial security...You claim to support EU for socially minded reasons but support a principle which works only for the business and not for workers. Thought EU was against that sory of thing.?

No one is forced to have zero hours contracts! In fact I work on a zero hours contract, I'm a sales agent basically, so if no one buy anything, I have zero income. The EU might be against it, but its not their job.

Just like I'm not happy that their not building enough new houses, or not happy that tuition fees were put in place, or that fox hunting might be coming back. However my issue is with the UK government, NOT the EU for not doing anything about it.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Yes, exactly and Thatcher was appointed PM 7 years after we joined EU. The EU stopped nothing, my area was devastated..not a single EU directive seen.

So you're blaming the EU for Thatcher now!!! What planet are you on?

The EU is many many things, many good and many bad, but you can't blame it for things its not.

 

[Zlatan]

So you're blaming the EU for Thatcher now!!! What planet are you on?

The EU is many many things, many good and many bad, but you can't blame it for things its not.

Are you actually reading my posts ? Ofcourse,I,m not blaming EU for Thatcher.
Thatcher proved how ineffectual EU actually is. ( as has Blair, Cameron and now May)
Zero hours contracts on your wages are rather different to Zero hours on minimum ..If I don't deliver a boat I wont be paid...thats how all self employed people operate. Its the risk we take. But your stance on EU and then supporting Zero hour contracts is at best contradictory.
Yes it works for some, if they are self supporting without the job. It sort of identifies your politics, be careful KTM. Supporting zero hours contracts is not a good idea.Its wrong. Fact.

Kiwi
Don't get your point re bull fighting. Its against all moral standpoints does contravene EU policy ( A,bull is a farm animal) and it just continues. Bull runs are actually getting more popular. ( I went to Pamplona 5 years ago, it was in humane...to bull and people.

 

[oldgroaner]

I'm really trying to understand you... I am.

So you're saying we should leave the EU because they are doing nothing.

What I don't understand is how you think that makes sense??

If they are doing nothing, then you're blaming the national governments, yes? So us leaving the EU will improve things how??

Yes, it achieves what governments what it to achieve, because its a club, run by those governments. Its achieved lots! You seem to want it to control domestic law, and the fact it isn't is reason to leave?

I clearly don't understand your logic.

I have an Explanation.
He doesn't use logic, it's a Brexit no go area.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Are you actually reading my posts ? Ofcourse,I,m not blaming EU for Thatcher.
Thatcher proved how ineffectual EU actually is. ( as has Blair, Cameron and now May)
Zero hours contracts on your wages are rather different to Zero hours on minimum ..If I don't deliver a boat I wont be paid...thats how all self employed people operate. Its the risk we take. But your stance on EU and then supporting Zero hour contracts is at best contradictory.
Yes it works for some, if they are self supporting without the job. It sort of identifies your politics, be careful KTM. Supporting zero hours contracts is not a good idea.Its wrong. Fact.

Kiwi
Don't get your point re bull fighting. Its against all moral standpoints does contravene EU policy ( A,bull is a farm animal) and it just continues. Bull runs are actually getting more popular. ( I went to Pamplona 5 years ago, it was in humane...to bull and people.

Its you who said the EU didn't stop her, or indeed other UK leaders. Why should they?? We voted for them, and the EU is by definition a club of its members, and the members are us.

What are they supposed to say... oh yes we see you've voted in right wing leaders, but we'll stop them doing anything. How do you think that would go down? The EU is not there to overide National Government, its there to set trading standards, try to keep peace, set targets etc etc etc. It's not there to override national law.

In fact many people who voted leave did so because they think it over rides UK powers, you're the first person I've spoken to who thinks we should leave because it doesn't do enough.

 

[Zlatan]

Its you who said the EU didn't stop her, or indeed other UK leaders. Why should they?? We voted for them, and the EU is by definition a club of its members, and the members are us.

What are they supposed to say... oh yes we see you've voted in right wing leaders, but we'll stop them doing anything. How do you think that would go down? The EU is not there to overide National Government, its there to set trading standards, try to keep peace, set targets etc etc etc. It's not there to override national law.

In fact many people who voted leave did so because they think it over rides UK powers, you're the first person I've spoken to who thinks we should leave because it doesn't do enough.

Yes, I agree they cant and don't help. So what was going to happen under this Tory government even if we stayed...penny dropped. It makes no difference.They would implement whatever they wished, adopt the EU legislation that suited them and ignore the rest. Like I said about 7 weeks ago.
The big issue ( again pardon the pun) is which party are elected. Its going to be the tories....for all reasons myself and flecc have outlined.
If Corbyn sacked Diane Abbot, adopted a compromise policy on defence, nuclear power and nuclear deterrent and actually made his mind up over EU, let us all know where he stands and what he,d do he might get elected. As it is absolute no chance.
To be honest if Corbyn arrived at a sensible policy on things mentioned and said he would remain I,d actually support him. IMHO getting Tories out is way more of an issue than EU. I don't think I,m alone on this. ( might be on here, but that's not new)
The bloke is sincere, down to earth, comes over as caring ...so why isn't he getting support ? His policies are wrong. The labour defence policy/ manifesto is a joke, but then again so is Diane Abott.

 

[Woosh]

The EU is many many things, many good and many bad, but you can't blame it for things its not.

You don't have to blame the EU for wanting to leave.
We paid in net about 300 billions in 45 years, plus a substantial liability.
What do we really get from that contribution? Cheap migrant labour, more globalisation (sorry, the right wording is integrated manufacturing) and one more legal layer that enriches the lawyers.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I am surprised that Theresa May is thinking about bringing back foxhunting. Up until now she has programmed a perfect election campaign. I am fed up with her repetitive soundbites,her happy family bit with hubbie was pretty sick and I still feel that she is going to prove ultimately a dictator,but she has been clever in harnessing almost all the electorate.
I suspect the fox hunting idea has come from the Tory right wingers like Rees-Mogg and Redwood,who now feel that May is in such a commanding position they can get away with any proposal.
Maybe a step too far.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

A new president in France has said he wants to push forward on social legislation across the remaining 27 countries. I think that he will not have his hands free to do all that he wants in France and he sees that the EU is the key to having social and business policies implemented. This is my own personal opinion, I didn't read it anywhere

he wants the same as Mrs May would, to rule by decree.
'simplify labour laws by decree'. He is obviously keen to make the French work more hours and easier to let go.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

You don't have to blame the EU for wanting to leave.
We paid in net about 300 billions in 45 years, plus a substantial liability.
What do we really get from that contribution? Cheap migrant labour, more globalisation (sorry, the right wording is integrated manufacturing) and one more legal layer that enriches the lawyers.

Its pretty much agreed that the money we put in is returned many times over in the benefits we get for being a member.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

and its a tiny % of the expenditure.

So for all the benefits, I'd say its worth it.

Are you seriously asking what we get from being in the EU? If you don't know that, I can see why you voted leave, because you're blissfully ignorant of what it does.

 

[Woosh]

Its pretty much agreed that the money we put in is returned many times over in the benefits we get for being a member.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

you took the net contribution as a percentage of our budget. That does not reflect accurately the cumulative effect it has on the leavers.
You should consider to compare our contribution as a mortgage repayment on a timeshare purchase. When you get out, you may get a substantial bill from the management.
I can't see what I have got out of the EU myself.

 

[Danidl]

you took the net contribution as a percentage of our budget. That does not reflect accurately the cumulative effect it has on the leavers.
You should consider to compare our contribution as a mortgage repayment on a timeshare purchase. When you get out, you may get a substantial bill from the management.
I can't see what I have got out of the EU myself.

... Are you not a Frenchman living and working in the UK?

 

[Woosh]

... Are you not a Frenchman living and working in the UK?

I have been naturalised British for more than a decade.
I happened to like Mr Blair.

 

[Danidl]

I have been naturalised British for more than a decade.
I happened to like Mr Blair.

.... A process which was facilitated by both UK and France being part of a common market.
I also liked Mr Blair, particularly in the early years where he facilitated the Northern Ireland peace process. That he allowed himself to be seduced into a needless war was and is a tragedy.

 

[Danidl]

I think FBU should get somebody off here to negotiate with government, they could quote all these meaninglesss directives..

This isa comment from FBU

We regard the transitional arrangements, which force younger firefighters into having to work on to age 60 are totally unrealistic. We will pursue the argument for our members in whatever venue is likely to deliver us the correct result.”

The government have just won in tribunal over retirement age going to 60 for all fire service, with other worsening conditions of service.
Fire Service aren't getting any help from EU, neither did Police, neither did Teachers...
And Zero hour contracts continue..
And KTM imagine bringing a family up with your only employment on Zero hours. No mortgage, no financial security...You claim to support EU for socially minded reasons but support a principle which works only for the business and not for workers. Thought EU was against that sory of thing.?

.... One might expect a trade union to employ their own legal council. If they find an appropriate directive, like the working time directive, they can bring a case against the state e.g the UK government, at the ECJ. While UK is still a member, it is bound by any of the directives. ... Other countries do this all the time.

Incidentally I do not think that 60 is a suitable age for an active fireman to be working inside blazing buildings. It might well be a suitable age for a fire department supervisor or manager who would have years of experience under their belt. Has the fire union sought relief under health and safety grounds?

 

[oldgroaner]

So you're blaming the EU for Thatcher now!!! What planet are you on?

The EU is many many things, many good and many bad, but you can't blame it for things its not.

Actually he can, and does, quite obviously.

he bloke is sincere, down to earth, comes over as caring ...so why isn't he getting support ? His policies are wrong. The labour defence policy/ manifesto is a joke, but then again so is Diane Abott.

So what are you suggesting? give us all a clue
You voted for Brexit, and it's coming, so what do we do now?
Your shout, you broke it, tell us how to fix it.
Why did you vote to destroy something without a practical aternative to offer?

 

[oldgroaner]

You don't have to blame the EU for wanting to leave.
We paid in net about 300 billions in 45 years, plus a substantial liability.
What do we really get from that contribution? Cheap migrant labour, more globalisation (sorry, the right wording is integrated manufacturing) and one more legal layer that enriches the lawyers.

We have cheap labour already thanks to the Tory's and they still want the same migrants to come as before.
What have we gained?