Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

Will they or wont they?
This "Surprisingly" from the Daily Mail
"
CPS to announce this morning if up to 30 Tory politicians will face charges over election expenses irregularities during the 2015 campaign

• 15 police forces have investigated allegations of election expense irregularities
• Among those investigated is outgoing Tory South Thanet MP Craig Mackinlay
• Mackinlay defeated former Ukip leader Nigel Farage by around 2,000 votes
• Mr Mackinlay has denied any wrong doing concerning his campaign spending

Interestingly ten minutes later...i can't find this piece again!

My guess is that no criminal charges will be forthcoming. It will all have been due to an administrative error, and the MPs involved are all delightful honest people with the public's best interest at the heart of all that they do.

Meanwhile in other news, last night a man dressed in a gorilla suit threw a kettle over a pub ...........

 

[Woosh]

it is of course the fault/error of the conservative party head office to declare that the battle bus was theirs.

 

[oldgroaner]

Might not appear so but I actually agree with nearly all the anti Tory sentiment and points raised but since this thread is about Brexit and in theory facts can somebody please explain how on earth country is any better off in EU but still with the Tories.

And yet again Corbyn makes his position worse by saying he wouldn't answer question wether he,d take us out or stay in EU???
You remainers are missing the major issue. Its not in or out EU , its producing a viable alternative to Tories.

Once again I will try to explain:
While we were in the EU there was always a chance that there would be a change to follow the Socially positive Directives there.
Now you have given all power to the Conservatives there is no possibilty of improvement for the lower orders.
What is stopping you from understanding that?
The British electorate has the unfortunate habit of, like you being unable to see obvious truth when they trip over it, and the media (that you pretend has no effect) will continue to lead them (and you) down the path of making things worse for themselves, while the EU benefits from not having to pander to this shower of anti social politicians and poilicies, demands and threats we try to foist on them.
The Major issue is first to reverse Brexit and in the process get rid of the Torys.
They have lied, cheated and prevented proper integration with the EU; which will now, without us morph into a United States of Europe, while we end up in the situation Cuba did, after it's fall out with the USA.
Anything less than getting back into the EU and rid of Tory misrule is not enough.

 

[oldtom]

Maybe she saw Hunger Games and wants to try it out for real?

Some people may laugh at your suggestion but we have all heard what can happen when power becomes absolute power and that is what this unelected PM craves, only achievable through a general election - she has openly admitted that she wants the public to strengthen her hand in the 'Brexit' negotiations by returning her party with an even stronger mandate.

No-one should be fooled by that claim, being wholly unnecessary as we are already within 23 months of independence from the EU; no GE (was) scheduled necessary till 2020, on top of which we have an official opposition in broad agreement with tory plans on the issue anyway.

This is about strengthening May's grip on power and providing the tory party with carte blanche to do whatever they want. If they succeed, foxhunting will be legalised again but that is just for starters, simply because they can!

A final push on grammar schools and academies to ensure there is no state control, rendering all education as profit-generating businesses for rich investors, plus the onslaught on the NHS will quickly follow....just because they can!

Tory policies have already killed off thousands of our citizens and forced tens of thousands into reliance on charities and food banks just to survive -forget about the neat expression 'JAMS' - these people at the lower end of the social scale would dearly love to be 'JAMS'!

The only thing this media-driven election fever has achieved so far is to divert attention away from the fact that there remains no plan for a post-'Brexit' UK. As for May, any politician who openly admits support of an end to the ban on foxhunting in the run-up to a GE, while risking the break-up of the UK, demonstrates exactly the ruthless lack of human compassion from the ruling class displayed in the 'Hunger Games' films.

There remains outstanding the matter of deliberate cheating by her party over the 2015 legal election expenses limit permitted, which may well end in prosecutions. To blithely ignore such a matter, passing it off as an oversight or a mistake is simply unacceptable but I fear the public at large is now so inured to the lies and cheating from the tory political class that criminal activity in their pursuit of power at election time comes as no surprise.

Any government or coalition resulting from the forthcoming GE with a leader from any party other than the tories would be a welcome change. The last thing Britain needs is more of May's perverse notion of strong and stable leadership - God help us all if she is returned to power with an increased majority.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

My guess is that no criminal charges will be forthcoming. It will all have been due to an administrative error, and the MPs involved are all delightful honest people with the public's best interest at the heart of all that they do.

Meanwhile in other news, last night a man dressed in a gorilla suit threw a kettle over a pub ...........

You are absolutely right and no doubt after the election heads will roll among the people who brought this to light.
Also in other news, shares in Companies manufacturing Whitewash made early gains in the Stock Market on news of the large Tory lead over Labour

 

[oldgroaner]

it is of course the fault/error of the conservative party head office to declare that the battle bus was theirs.

Next thing you know they will change that to "it just happened to have been artworked by Students as a project, and Boris and Farage took the opportunity to point it out"
They bought tickets on the bus out of their own pockets.
Or some equally plausible story

 

[Woosh]

Now you have given all power to the Conservatives there is no possibilty of improvement for the lower orders.
What is stopping you from understanding that?

the problem is our winner takes all political system, resulting in policies swinging from left to right, the amplitude is proportional to the size of the majority.
The tories become the party for brexit is the result of a majority and small majority. If the tories could have won the last election with a bigger majority or did not win and were forced into a coalition, brexit would not have happened.
If you guys continue to label 'New Labour' ask 'pink tories' then there is no hope.
There is a lack of an effective opposition at the moment and possibly for as long as Mr Corbyn is leader of Labour party. He is not going to resign if Labour does not win.

 

[oldtom]

Previously, I mentioned that Mrs May is not universally liked in the parliamentary tory party, nor among the tory membership at large. Here is the view of one grass-roots party member:

theresa-may-isnt-strong-shes-cowardly-evasive-and-weak-and-im-a-tory

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Here is a view from an immigrant on JC and his policies, expressed on social media:



Tom

 

[oldtom]

There are calls from many that you won't read about in the mainstream media or see on TV news about the election expenses cheating.




Tom

 

[oldtom]

If you have ever wondered why Germany has done so well since 1945 while the UK has fared so badly, this is just one example of how the Germans have channelled their energy (no pun intended) and talents while the UK has simply been raped by tory government and their capitalist friends and benefactors.

germany-breaks-solar-record-gets-85-electricity-renewables

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

Once again I will try to explain:
While we were in the EU there was always a chance that there would be a change to follow the Socially positive Directives there.
Now you have given all power to the Conservatives there is no possibilty of improvement for the lower orders.
What is stopping you from understanding that?
The British electorate has the unfortunate habit of, like you being unable to see obvious truth when they trip over it, and the media (that you pretend has no effect) will continue to lead them (and you) down the path of making things worse for themselves, while the EU benefits from not having to pander to this shower of anti social politicians and poilicies, demands and threats we try to foist on them.
The Major issue is first to reverse Brexit and in the process get rid of the Torys.
They have lied, cheated and prevented proper integration with the EU; which will now, without us morph into a United States of Europe, while we end up in the situation Cuba did, after it's fall out with the USA.
Anything less than getting back into the EU and rid of Tory misrule is not enough.

I agree a chance OG but tell me one group of workers who are actually better off as a direct consequence of EU, like you keep reminding us EU can not, does not enforce its directives and individual countries seen totally at free will to ignore it adopt anything they see fit.
Take for example your rightful criticism of May wanting to bring back fox hunting ( a criticism I fully agree with BTW) but then look at Spain with Bull Fighting and to a lesser degree ( on bulls part) of ludicrous Bull Running. I,ve witnessed both and first is appalling second only marginally better..Where does EU stand on any of that.
The EU is a side issue, yes it could have massive financial implications )( either way) but socially the EU only achieved that which individual countries want it to...hence my argument re poorer conditions in last 15 years for every group..
Read the article you quoted carefully OG. Take for example Maternity leave. A right for all..agreed. My daughter is ( baby expected June) is operating under worse maternity time off than wife received when daughter born 35 years ago.( both Governent employees)
You are laying blame for everything ,both future and past at Brexit. That is wrong .
if Tory,s had a credible opposition now and had had since Blair than Brexit may well have never happened and as it is Tory,s can do as they wish...in or out the EU. ( They proved that with Fire Service)
All this moaning should be aimed at Labour party,,, they have let country down by letting this ridiculous situation arise. Its a one party democracy...and you blame Brexit.

 

[oldgroaner]

I agree a chance OG but tell me one group of workers who are actually better off as a direct consequence of EU, like you keep reminding us EU can not, does not enforce its directives and individual countries seen totally at free will to ignore it adopt anything they see fit.
Take for example your rightful criticism of May wanting to bring back fox hunting ( a criticism I fully agree with BTW) but then look at Spain with Bull Fighting and to a lesser degree ( on bulls part) of ludicrous Bull Running. I,ve witnessed both and first is appalling second only marginally better..Where does EU stand on any of that.
The EU is a side issue, yes it could have massive financial implications )( either way) but socially the EU only achieved that which individual countries want it to...hence my argument re poorer conditions in last 15 years for every group..
Read the article you quoted carefully OG. Take for example Maternity leave. A right for all..agreed. My daughter is ( baby expected June) is operating under worse maternity time off than wife received when daughter born 35 years ago.( both Governent employees)
You are laying blame for everything ,both future and past at Brexit. That is wrong .
if Tory,s had a credible opposition now and had had since Blair than Brexit may well have never happened and as it is Tory,s can do as they wish...in or out the EU. ( They proved that with Fire Service)
All this moaning should be aimed at Labour party,,, they have let country down by letting this ridiculous situation arise. Its a one party democracy...and you blame Brexit.

Still refusing to get the point? The advantages of being in the EU have been listed many times and you simply deny them preferring your fiction.
It is the fault of our government not the EU that things are as they are and you vote for brexit will make things worse not better.
What have you gained from it ?
Name something

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I agree a chance OG but tell me one group of workers who are actually better off as a direct consequence of EU,

Sales Agents.

We're protected by a host of European Law, that the UK signed up to and has to implement. It means that working across Europe is dead easy, and we're protected. I've had to take a client to court in Germany before and the process was made about 1000x easier by our EU membership. Its also very easy to work for European primaries and sort products for the UK market. Equally UK brands can have sales agents in the rests of the EU, helping them access the market easily. Everyone benefits, customers, shops, brands, and the agents themselves.

Cycle Industry.

Most bike parts / bikes are EU brands, so moving them about within the EU is super easy, which means the cycle industry and its customers in the UK benefit. The EU brands themselves, which includes the UK brands, like Orange, Brompton, Ridgeback, Whyte etc etc are protected against the Far East by the EU deals. As a small country on our own, if we loose the protection of the EU against the Far East, you'll find these British brands might struggle to compete, especially if we get a free trade deal with China or the US, its only going to crush our brands, not help them.

There are 2 examples. Do you want more?

 

[flecc]

All this moaning should be aimed at Labour party,,, they have let country down by letting this ridiculous situation arise.

Not so, the problem is threefold:

First the loss of Scotland to the SNP meant Labour could no longer reach a controlling majority in the UK. The structural changes in England such as the loss of industry have left too few of the population identifying as socialist, and the more recent changes in Wales have made Labour overall control even more impossible.

Second and connected with the first, the innate snobbishness of the English has meant their wanting to identify as middle class rather than working class, and thus not socialist.

Third as Old Tom has observed, the UK media's character assassination of anyone even slightly to the left. As one of Old Tom's posts above illustrated, Jeremy Corbyn is an entirely moderate socialist of a kind common and very successful elsewhere, but here the media will not let him have a fair crack of the whip.

In summary it doesn't matter who leads the Labour party in Britain, if they are in the slightest way socialist they won't be given any chance, by the media or our ignorant sheep-like population.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I heard someone this morning describe it like this.

We were fed up with a two party system where we just flip flopped between Red and Blue, and we've ended up with a 7 party system where we're stuck with Blue for the exact reasons you've described Flecc.

 

[Zlatan]

Not so, the problem is threefold:

First the loss of Scotland to the SNP meant Labour could no longer reach a controlling majority in the UK. The structural changes in England such as the loss of industry have left too few of the population identifying as socialist, and the more recent changes in Wales have made Labour overall control even more impossible.

Second and connected with the first, the innate snobbishness of the English has meant their wanting to identify as middle class rather than working class, and thus not socialist.

Third as Old Tom has observed, the UK media's character assassination of anyone even slightly to the left. As one of Old Tom's posts above illustrated, Jeremy Corbyn is an entirely moderate socialist of a kind common and very successful elsewhere, but here the media will not let him have a fair crack of the whip.

In summary it doesn't matter who leads the Labour party in Britain, if they are in the slightest way socialist they won't be given any chance, by the media or our ignorant sheep-like population.
.

I see your point Flecc but Labour certainly does not help itself keeping Corbyn in charge..
I also think you underestimate the effect Blair had on many Labour voters.

 

[Zlatan]

Sales Agents.

We're protected by a host of European Law, that the UK signed up to and has to implement. It means that working across Europe is dead easy, and we're protected. I've had to take a client to court in Germany before and the process was made about 1000x easier by our EU membership. Its also very easy to work for European primaries and sort products for the UK market. Equally UK brands can have sales agents in the rests of the EU, helping them access the market easily. Everyone benefits, customers, shops, brands, and the agents themselves.

Cycle Industry.

Most bike parts / bikes are EU brands, so moving them about within the EU is super easy, which means the cycle industry and its customers in the UK benefit. The EU brands themselves, which includes the UK brands, like Orange, Brompton, Ridgeback, Whyte etc etc are protected against the Far East by the EU deals. As a small country on our own, if we loose the protection of the EU against the Far East, you'll find these British brands might struggle to compete, especially if we get a free trade deal with China or the US, its only going to crush our brands, not help them.

There are 2 examples. Do you want more?

Fair point KTM , but do you think they would have been accepted had our Government not wanted them ? Just look into Fire Sevice changes of contract working conditions and its hardly been reported. All done whilst in EU...
If any government does not want to utilise any EU directives they simply don't.
Your examples are more towards goods and standards rather than conditions of service. Just ask people in Civil Service, Teaching, Fire Service,NHS, local Government who have been in 10 years or longer. They are working longer hours,more than likely on no strike contracts, with reduced pension benefits, taking more work home and for same levels of pay....all whilst UK is in EU ???
Fleccs argument cuts both ways, in that ultimately our conditions of service depend not on EU but government of day..
You just seem to ignore what has been happening under successive governments for years. An erosion of working conditions but you insist this is either not the case or simply write it off as governments fault .If EU is so socially minded why has process continued.? Either because they don't care or because they are powerless. Either way result is same. Just look ar rise of no hour contracts, all under EU governance ???
Mike Ashley is a billionaire through no hour contracts? Its happened in last 5 years. Could it be worse out of EU when government already decide???

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Fair point KTM , but di you think they would have been accepted had our Government not wanted them ? Just look into Fire Sevice changes of contract working conditions and its hardly been reported. All done whilst in EU...
If any government does not want to utilise any EU directives they simply don't.
Fleccs argument cuts both ways, in or our our conditions if service depend not on EU but government of day..

Yes, but you asked who'd benefit and I've given you 2 direct examples that I have first hand experience of.

All your reply has shown is that the EU isn't the over powering dictatorship that many claim it is. If there are things you don't like, you don't have to accept them.

Just look at eBike law. It took HOW long for the UK to catch up with the EU 250w limit. Who do you think benefited from the old UK limit of 200w... basically no one.

The EU is there as a positive influence, if we take it away, we're not going to be in sink with the trading block, so if they change to 350w, where are we going to do? Copy them? So why not be part of it if we're just going to try to mirror all the legislation that we're having to sell into and buy from?

And this is just eBikes, imagine what its like across all the other industries the UK / EU work together on?

I'd challenge you to find one workforce that has been negatively impacted upon because of our EU membership. And don't pick examples of firms that have moved to mainland Europe, because they will happen post Brexit and isn't because of the EU, its because of business decisions about access to markets and labour / logistics costs.

 

[flecc]

I also think you underestimate the effect Blair had on many Labour voters.

Not really, Blair did huge damage to the Labour party by making it a pseudo tory alternative, removing choice. That greatly helped the right wing media, since it gave credence to their standpoint that any socialism is extremism.

I can't envisage any solution in the short term future, since out of the EU and the consequent removal of all constraint gives a free hand to the Tories to reinforce their position. The fact that for several years they'll be able to blame shortcomings on the "wicked" EU's terms for leaving will be further help.

The only comfort I get is that the population have only themselves to blame for being so blind and foolish.
.