Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Parts of the left have tried over the years to talk of a sense of Englishness, or of belonging, or of a civic identity, or of what a post-imperial country may be, or how Englishness has changed.

Englishness has been an irrelevance for over half a century, it's just another word for nationalism, which itself is a dirty word. Nationalism is what creates wars.

This is a global world in which we travel, live, work, mingle and interbreed in countries in diverse ways that leaves almost nowhere with a completely common human identity.

We are no longer nations, except in the minds of politicians and the deluded longing for a largely fictitious past.
.

 

[Woosh]

We are no longer nations, except in the minds of politicians and the deluded longing for a largely fictitious past.
.

Are you saying that [their (brexiters') feelings are the wrong feelings]?
You just confirmed that the author of the article was completely right.

 

[flecc]

Are you saying that [their (brexiters') feelings are the wrong feelings]?
You just confirmed that the author of the article was completely right.

Yes, they are.

The article's conclusion is misguided, based on historical suppositions rather than facts and irrelevant to today.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Theresa May appears to be blaming Hammond for the NIC mistake. But she must have been involved in what was Hammonds prime policy.
Looking forward are Boris or Davis going to be blamed for all the mistakes made along the Brexit road and the outcome.
May,of course,cannot be blamed...control freaks are never wrong.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

Yes, they are.

The article's conclusion is misguided, based on historical suppositions rather than facts and irrelevant to today.
.

This is conclusion of the article:

In the despair over Brexit, there is a chance to ask what this nation is and what it can be. As the English were prepared to vote in a way that would disrupt the union, there can be no surprise that the union is at risk. This was a vote for English independence at the price of English dominance. Repressing feelings does not make them go away. England was not asked about independence but, in its own irrational way, that is what it was voting for.

I disagree with flecc.

 

[flecc]

As the English were prepared to vote in a way that would disrupt the union, there can be no surprise that the union is at risk.

I don't think there's the faintest shred of evidence that any of the Brexiters even considered the union for one moment when they voted.

They stated a wide variety of reasons for the way they voted with little consideration of the implications.
.

 

[oldtom]

Englishness has been an irrelevance for over half a century, it's just another word for nationalism, which itself is a dirty word. Nationalism is what creates wars.

This is a global world in which we travel, live, work, mingle and interbreed in countries in diverse ways that leaves almost nowhere with a completely common human identity.

We are no longer nations, except in the minds of politicians and the deluded longing for a largely fictitious past.
.

For a guy embarked on his 9th decade on this planet, you certainly haven't lost your sense of perception 'flecc'.

Like it or not, people, all peoples, will eventually come to realise that all three short paragraphs you have just posted are not only true but need to be espoused if nation states are to prosper in a global marketplace.

The English notion of pulling up the drawbridge never worked against determined foreigners in the past and it certainly won't work today. Isolation is the last thing that the UK needs in this 21st century. It's way past time for us to realise that Britain no longer rules the waves and that the days of empire are just history.

I'm reminded of how we acquired our empire; roughly like this:

Tom

 

[Woosh]

I don't think there's the faintest shred of evidence that any of the Brexiters even considered the union for one moment when they voted.

and they still don't.
that does not contradict the view that the vote for brexit contains the idea of independence for England.

 

[oldgroaner]

Fair play for admitting your concerns. I hope now you can see a tiny amount of why so many have been concerned for some time.

The vote was always about, do you want what we've currently got, with the potential to change it, or do you want to leave.

The "leave" option has never had a plan, and now it appears its even worse than we suspect, not only is there no plan, there is no idea what the impact of the lack of plan is. Its a mess, and indeed does make people weep.

People weren't able to vote for anything, they were simply voting against things, which has led us to this mess.

There is one thing that brexit voters had no chance whatever of anticipating.
The incompetence of all politicians of all parties in this country.

Voting for a party with an empty manifesto - it really is the story of the king's new clothes......not wanting to seem like a fool, etc.

Tom

This is conclusion of the article:



I disagree with flecc.

For a guy embarked on his 9th decade on this planet, you certainly haven't lost your sense of perception 'flecc'.

Like it or not, people, all peoples, will eventually come to realise that all three short paragraphs you have just posted are not only true but need to be espoused if nation states are to prosper in a global marketplace.

The English notion of pulling up the drawbridge never worked against determined foreigners in the past and it certainly won't work today. Isolation is the last thing that the UK needs in this 21st century. It's way past time for us to realise that Britain no longer rules the waves and that the days of empire are just history.

I'm reminded of how we acquired our empire; roughly like this:

Tom

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Woosh]

OG, don't you think that the left has fallen asleep on the issue of nationalism, thus handing over the control of the agenda, and power by implication, to the right?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

OG, don't you think that the left has fallen asleep on the issue of nationalism, thus handing over the control of the agenda, and power by implication, to the right?

or do you think that the issue of nationalism is a dying issue. This is its last breath...

Most of the youth in this country, have grown up in Europe, as part of it, with friends and colleagues from all nationalities. On the mainland most people don't even seem to view internal EU migration as immigrants and they can't understand why the UK government is worried about it. Immigrants come from outside the EU.

Look at our towns and cities, they pretty much all voted "remain" its about fear of the unknown.

Nationalism is on its way out...

 

[Jimod]

Indyref2 has had an early victory. 48 hours after Stilettoes Sturgeon announced it, Tesco have taken their 25% increase back off the White chocolate chip muffins. It just shows, there's still hope ahead of us.

 

[flecc]

the issue of nationalism is a dying issue. This is its last breath...

Indeed, it's mainly expressed by the older age groups in Britain and an even smaller proportion of them in the mainland EU countries. They will soon be yesterday's people so have diminishing relevance.

A few decades ago racism was open and rife, but now it's greatly reduced nationally and largely disappeared in British cities.. Nationalism is related to it and now following the same path to extinction.
.

 

[Woosh]

They will soon be yesterday's people so have diminishing relevance.

so how do do explain the rise of nationalism? it's not all the work of the Russians is it? Could it be that nationalism simply increases with age?

 

[oldtom]

Does anyone actually believe the news today that Toyota are about to invest heavily in the expansion of their UK plants?

This story stinks to me as it doesn't quite ring true given what we know about UK companies exporting to EU countries post-'Brexit' with the strong likelihood of punitive tariffs being levied. We know that Nissan may still pull out of the UK even after the sweetheart deal they were offered, the details of which we taxpayers are not allowed to know.

This extract from the media story is rather telling:

'The government is providing £21.3m in funding for training, research and development and improving the Burnaston plant's environmental performance.

Business Secretary Greg Clark said the investment "underlines the company's faith in its employees and will help ensure the plant is well positioned for future Toyota models to be made in the UK".'

All in all, it strikes me that this government, in desperation, are investing in Toyota with no guarantee that even with such an investment, the company will stay in the UK.

The timing of this announcement is rather strange too, coming on top of reports that a hard 'Brexit' is looking more certain as each day passes. I'm a cynic and this seems to me nothing more than propaganda published in the hope of allaying the fears of the growing number of doubters now that opportunity for implementation of A50 is close.

Perhaps I'm being overly cynical.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

The Liberal Part then and the Liberal Party today:



From well-principled to unprincipled inside 70 years.

Tom

 

[flecc]

so how do do explain the rise of nationalism? it's not all the work of the Russians is it? Could it be that nationalism simply increases with age?

Although increasing age is an element, much of the recent rise is due to current disillusionment with politics, here and elsewhere. The disillusionment has arisen with events like the 2008 banking crisis, other aspects of globalisation and the recent mass migrations. The remainder is deliberately provoked by politicans seeking to divert public attention.

It's not a lasting phenomenon though, as situations stabilise feelings will normalise and the young will increasingly command the agenda.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

and they still don't.
that does not contradict the view that the vote for brexit contains the idea of independence for England.

Lets face it most Brexiters voted for it because the Government didn't want them to, And a bunch of Clowns promised them the Earth and the NHS too.
End of.
Mental process stopped at that point without any thought of the consequences, quite simply because the same group of Clowns assured them there wouldn't be any, it was all Project Fear to frighten them and they are tough guys.

And then we find out this bunch of clowns knew even less what the result would be than the voters they had misled, and even worse haven't bothered to give the consequences of Brexit the attention they should have.

What a Farce!
"We won't tell you are plans and damage our negotiating position"

The have no plans and don't even know the first thing about either Negotiating, the position we are actually in, could be in , would like to be in, and will end up being in!

And they have assumed absolute power????
Frankly they are traitors to the country and so are the Press that support them.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Does anyone actually believe the news today that Toyota are about to invest heavily in the expansion of their UK plants?

This story stinks to me as it doesn't quite ring true given what we know about UK companies exporting to EU countries post-'Brexit' with the strong likelihood of punitive tariffs being levied. We know that Nissan may still pull out of the UK even after the sweetheart deal they were offered, the details of which we taxpayers are not allowed to know.

This extract from the media story is rather telling:

'The government is providing £21.3m in funding for training, research and development and improving the Burnaston plant's environmental performance.

Business Secretary Greg Clark said the investment "underlines the company's faith in its employees and will help ensure the plant is well positioned for future Toyota models to be made in the UK".'

All in all, it strikes me that this government, in desperation, are investing in Toyota with no guarantee that even with such an investment, the company will stay in the UK.

The timing of this announcement is rather strange too, coming on top of reports that a hard 'Brexit' is looking more certain as each day passes. I'm a cynic and this seems to me nothing more than propaganda published in the hope of allaying the fears of the growing number of doubters now that opportunity for implementation of A50 is close.

Perhaps I'm being overly cynical.

Tom

Rally Design are pleased to announce that we are investing £24 million in a research and development project in South Thanet,one of the most trusted regions of the U.K.,it will investigate the possibility of pv electrical energy from the common lettuce
The energy will be sold to the grid and the lettuce will be marketed as organic and self propagating.
We need about £2.8 million to build a research centre which will be shaped like a boat and afterwards can be used as a tariff buster post Brexit to export the lettuce.
The whole project will be ready for launch early April.
Be assured the lettuce will be harvested in a humane manner.
Just need a plausible front man to present this viable project to the people,some bloke named Farage appears ideal and is currently unemployed.
The project depends upon the UK government assuring that lettuce will be excluded from tariffs and the lettuce will enjoy access to the single market and the customs union.
KudosDave

 

[Jimod]

Rally Design are pleased to announce that we are investing £24 million in a research and development project in South Thanet,one of the most trusted regions of the U.K.,it will investigate the possibility of pv electrical energy from the common lettuce
KudosDave

Whatever you do, don't waste your money testing 'Blushed butter oak' lettuce. I tried those and couldn't get the Tourer to go any more than 50 yards. I had invested £1.73 on this ill fated venture. There are 6 other main types of lettuce that I haven't tried. I wish you success in your new venture.

P.S have you thought about sprouts?