Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

See, you would think the job is now to convince the 70+% of the country that didn't vote for this, that it is a good idea. Not sit back, be smug and think you've done the job. Its not complete... complete is making a success of it!! Delivering on the promises made.

If you / they can't convince people that this is a good plan, the influence is very much still intact. We've not left until we've left, and even once we've left we can simply apply to rejoin. So if you want to be out of the EU, the "leavers" do need to win some arguments, because if you keep loosing them, or hiding from them, your dream will fall apart before it even happens.

I take the opposite view to you in that I think that those who didn't vote, would have actually voted to leave, so it's actually 70%+ in favour of leaving. However, we will never know what the absent voters would have chosen, so we can't sensibly count them. That leaves us with the leave majority which is all to familiar to pro-remain.

I don't perceive a requirement to convince anyone. You can either get behind BREXIT and give it every chance of success, or you can stand on the sidelines sporting a mardy lip and pulling the wings off flies.

 

[oldtom]

3. The brexit argument had been strongly rejected in NI, and there are a number EU citizens, from eastern Europe living and working in the building and agricultural industries, these would not be natural sinn fein SF supporters
4. The LGBT reaction to stances by the DUP . These would not usually be viewed as SF supporters.

Yes, there's no doubt the DUP has shot itself in the foot, (bad metaphor, I know!) with this whole renewable energy issue. These are interesting times in the 6 counties as traditional voting patterns are less in evidence than previously. Overall, I think that is a good thing and may well be indicative of a softening of attitude on both sides of the divide.

Mrs Mayhem and her cabinet of toadies really ought to be paying heed to what is happening across the water as If they ignore what is going on there, they may well find they can no longer rely on the unionists to prop up their policies at Westminster and that requirement may present itself sooner rather than later.

Ireland united, Gaelic and free!

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

As I keep repeating, nothing new, this kind of "news" can be found anywhere if you scrutinise sufficiently, and that includes within your left wing nuthouse. It's simply a case of where you choose to shine the search light.

So, with regards to your story, it's perfectly acceptable to dismiss it.

Sorry but it isn't and if you think lies should be dismissed, you have really lost your way.

 

[oldgroaner]

I take the opposite view to you in that I think that those who didn't vote, would have actually voted to leave, so it's actually 70%+ in favour of leaving. However, we will never know what the absent voters would have chosen, so we can't sensibly count them. That leaves us with the leave majority which is all to familiar to pro-remain.

I don't perceive a requirement to convince anyone. You can either get behind BREXIT and give it every chance of success, or you can stand on the sidelines sporting a mardy lip and pulling the wings off flies.

Hells teeth i am so looking forward to seeing this Brexit of yours achieve exactly what it is designed to do, make the rich richer and the poor poorer, and their reaction will be exciting to say the least.
Mardy lip? Beaming smile is what I shall be wearing, seeing you get the Government you Deserve!
Bring it on!
With any luck this will prove to be the final straw that breaks the Tory Camel's back.

 

[oldtom]

Any further discussion with pro-remain is actually superfluous, because there nothing which they can now influence.

Oh, I wouldn't be too sure about that 'tillson'!........You know the old adages - 'Play to the whistle'.......'Never count your chickens, etc'.

Tom

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I take the opposite view to you in that I think that those who didn't vote, would have actually voted to leave, so it's actually 70%+ in favour of leaving. However, we will never know what the absent voters would have chosen, so we can't sensibly count them. That leaves us with the leave majority which is all to familiar to pro-remain.

I don't perceive a requirement to convince anyone. You can either get behind BREXIT and give it every chance of success, or you can stand on the sidelines sporting a mardy lip and pulling the wings off flies.

I didn't say that those that didn't vote would have voted remain. I think its logical to assume that a lack of motivation to vote assumes a modicum of satisfaction with the status quo, but as you say we'll probably never know.

But you can't say its 70% in favour of leaving. It isn't and if you think it is you're mistaken and deluded.

about 1/4 of the UK voted for it, about 3/4 didn't. That's a fact.

How many of the 17 million who voted leave will still want to leave as prices rise, jobs leave, the UK splits up and the promises fall apart is something that can be debated.

If Breaksit is a positive, then you have nothing to worry about.

However and I want to be optimistic, so far no one pro leave has given me anything to be optimistic about, and the concerns raised by project fear do seem to be coming true as predicted, which isn't good for anyone. Especially the poorest in the UK.

I have no idea what I'm supposed to get behind? We were supposed to be better off, but that was a lie wasn't it!

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Sorry, should probably back up my statement about project fear predictions coming true with another statement from today.

This time from Ford's finance arm.

http://news.sky.com/story/fords-giant-financing-arm-weighs-german-move-after-brexit-10793601

But yes, its going to be better for the UK isn't it??

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I don't perceive a requirement to convince anyone. You can either get behind BREXIT and give it every chance of success, or you can stand on the sidelines sporting a mardy lip and pulling the wings off flies.

It won't be "remoaners" that kill Brexit... it'll be this.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-grocers-kantar-idUKKBN16E0T9

British food inflation has doubled since last month, with the price of staples including butter, tea, lamb and fish all rising, industry data showed on Tuesday, adding to evidence that the impact of last year's Brexit vote is pushing up shoppers' bills.

Market researcher Kantar Worldpanel said grocery inflation was 1.4 percent for the 12 weeks to Feb. 26, up from 0.7 percent in the 12 weeks to Jan. 29.

Food prices have been rising in Britain since the 12 weeks to Jan 1, bringing to an end a more than two-year period when prices fell.

Separately on Tuesday two other surveys showed British consumers cutting back on non-essential spending as the impact of the depreciation of sterling on import costs following last year's decision to leave the European Union pushes up the cost of their day-to-day shopping.

"Staples such as butter, tea and fish all saw prices rise by more than 5 percent during the past 12 weeks, as fruit and vegetables – many of which are imported – also saw an uptick in price," said Fraser McKevitt, head of retail and consumer insight at Kantar Worldpanel.

 

[shemozzle999]

That looks very much like the reunification of Ireland and and end to the UK as it stands.

Failed to mention that now they are nett contributors to the EU there is a likelihood the Irish people will join us by having a referendum to leave the EU now that the benefits of being a member have dried up and that they feel closer to the UK than the EU.

 

[tillson]

I didn't say that those that didn't vote would have voted remain. I think its logical to assume that a lack of motivation to vote assumes a modicum of satisfaction with the status quo, but as you say we'll probably never know.

But you can't say its 70% in favour of leaving. It isn't and if you think it is you're mistaken and deluded.

about 1/4 of the UK voted for it, about 3/4 didn't. That's a fact.

How many of the 17 million who voted leave will still want to leave as prices rise, jobs leave, the UK splits up and the promises fall apart is something that can be debated.

If Breaksit is a positive, then you have nothing to worry about.

However and I want to be optimistic, so far no one pro leave has given me anything to be optimistic about, and the concerns raised by project fear do seem to be coming true as predicted, which isn't good for anyone. Especially the poorest in the UK.

I have no idea what I'm supposed to get behind? We were supposed to be better off, but that was a lie wasn't it!

It is also true to say that only about a quarter of the U.K. voted to remain in the EU and that about three quarters didn't vote to remain. That is also a fact. So your point is what, exactly?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

It is also true to say that only about a quarter of the U.K. voted to remain in the EU and that about three quarters didn't. That is also a fact. So your point is what, exactly?

Yes, that's true. My point is that about 1/4 of the UK voted leave and they have a duty to show the other 3/4 that its going to be a good idea and a positive. You can't just sit back and expect us to make your plan work, when we don't even believe it will.

Sitting back and saying suck it up, we won, etc etc, doesn't help anyone.

I'm like many, I don't think it'll work, I don't think its a positive, but I wish someone - and it could be you, could show me how its a positive and how it will work.

We're nearly 18 months into this debate and I'm still wanting to learn of some positives that actually make sense.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Failed to mention that now they are nett contributors to the EU there is a likelihood the Irish people will join us by having a referendum to leave the EU now that the benefits of being a member have dried up and that they feel closer to the UK than the EU.

It is possible to be a net contributor to something and view it as a positive and worthwhile! ie worth the money.

Post Brexit its likely their appreciation of the value of the EU is going to grow not shrink, especially with the companies who are likely to relocate to Dublin to keep access to single market.

 

[oldgroaner]

Failed to mention that now they are nett contributors to the EU there is a likelihood the Irish people will join us by having a referendum to leave the EU now that the benefits of being a member have dried up and that they feel closer to the UK than the EU.

More likely with the changes in the politics of Northern Ireland, they will unify with Eire and invite Nissan , BMW, Honda and the banks on board, I certainly don't see Eire wanting to lumber themselves with the dead weight of a BRexit situation.
Why should they when this could be the making of them?

 

[oldgroaner]

It is also true to say that only about a quarter of the U.K. voted to remain in the EU and that about three quarters didn't vote to remain. That is also a fact. So your point is what, exactly?

Your logic is flawed, not voting is actually approving of remain by default, by being negative to a proposal that requires positive change,or the status quo continues, as it denies support to the leave camp for positive action.

That is logic, but then , you are just "Trumping" again.

 

[tillson]

Your logic is flawed, not voting is actually approving of remain by default, by being negative to a proposal that requires positive change,or the status quo continues, as it denies support to the leave camp for positive action.

That is logic, but then , you are just "Trumping" again.

You can't say that a non vote is a vote to remain by default. You can't possibly know that. These types of assumptions underline the fact that it is a completely pointless exercise trying to discuss the pros and cons of BREXIT with you. The above is a perfect example of how you invent facts to support your stance on BREXIT.

 

[tillson]

Yes, that's true. My point is that about 1/4 of the UK voted leave and they have a duty to show the other 3/4 that its going to be a good idea and a positive. You can't just sit back and expect us to make your plan work, when we don't even believe it will.

Sitting back and saying suck it up, we won, etc etc, doesn't help anyone.

I'm like many, I don't think it'll work, I don't think its a positive, but I wish someone - and it could be you, could show me how its a positive and how it will work.

We're nearly 18 months into this debate and I'm still wanting to learn of some positives that actually make sense.

I don't think it is possible to construct a set of reasons for either case. Both positions, leave or remain, involve an element of risk but we don't know how either will play out.

I think we all have thoughts on what we want in the future. The problem BREXIT has is that everything we see as a potential benefit is met on here with a defeatist attitude.

We won't know who was right until about 5 years has elapsed.

 

[Danidl]

Failed to mention that now they are nett contributors to the EU there is a likelihood the Irish people will join us by having a referendum to leave the EU now that the benefits of being a member have dried up and that they feel closer to the UK than the EU.

Ireland has been a nett contributer for a few years now. We recognise that being a member of a club has costs as well as benefits, one of the costs was the loss of our nacent fishing industry to the Spanish, one of the benefits was a reduction in dependence on the UK and the growth in Europe for what is recognised as premium quality food. It has also helped that we are in Europe and are USA friendly, a strategy we will continue to use. Except for the possible exception of the UK we will be the hardest hit economy when the brexit process concludes, so if we succeed in gleaning some value from your debacle, who could blame us?

 

[OxygenJames]

There is no requirement to win an argument with anyone who is pro-remain. The job is complete, the decision to leave the EU has be taken and the process of actually leaving will be ramping up very soon. Any further discussion with pro-remain is actually superfluous, because there nothing which they can now influence.

Yup. Ain't that the truth. Living in the past. That whole argument is over.

As for what happens now.... I'm reading Daniel Hannan's excellent book 'What next?' where he examines where the UK can be headed once it has managed to free itself from the restrictions the EU has imposed upon it. What a delightful read. Like seriously offers such a positive take on the whole thing. I strongly suggest neither Tom nor Old Groaner or come to think of it ANY of the others here read it because it may seriously mess with their world view. Tillson though - you'd like it.

 

[OxygenJames]

I didn't say that those that didn't vote would have voted remain. I think its logical to assume that a lack of motivation to vote assumes a modicum of satisfaction with the status quo, but as you say we'll probably never know.

But you can't say its 70% in favour of leaving. It isn't and if you think it is you're mistaken and deluded.

about 1/4 of the UK voted for it, about 3/4 didn't. That's a fact.

How many of the 17 million who voted leave will still want to leave as prices rise, jobs leave, the UK splits up and the promises fall apart is something that can be debated.

If Breaksit is a positive, then you have nothing to worry about.

However and I want to be optimistic, so far no one pro leave has given me anything to be optimistic about, and the concerns raised by project fear do seem to be coming true as predicted, which isn't good for anyone. Especially the poorest in the UK.

I have no idea what I'm supposed to get behind? We were supposed to be better off, but that was a lie wasn't it!

You want something to be optimistic about - read Hannan's book.

 

[OxygenJames]

You can't say that a non vote is a vote to remain by default. You can't possibly know that. These types of assumptions underline the fact that it is a completely pointless exercise trying to discuss the pros and cons of BREXIT with you. The above is a perfect example of how you invent facts to support your stance on BREXIT.

Yup. We may have an IQ problem here. Remember that seminal work - the Bell Curve - who was it - Charles Murray yes that was the guy - fascinating read. Basically said where you end up in life is mainly determined by your IQ. Of course this is taboo to talk about. But I see it sometimes - people failing to grasp some very very basic concept - and I think its because some people - through no fault of their own of course - just don't have the IQ.