Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldtom]

The problem BREXIT has is that everything we see as a potential benefit is met on here with a defeatist attitude.

We're getting on for 13,000 posts and I can't recall your 'we', ever describing any positive benefit from secession. That is why 'remainers' like me have repeatedly asked for 'leavers' to furnish that information.

There has been plenty of aspirational guff, interspersed by nonsensical fantasy about 'taking back control, regaining lost sovereignty??......and arranging our own trade deals with countries twice as far away as France and Iberia, essentially the breadbasket of Europe.

Frankly, I really can't see what the UK has to gain from this stupidity but I can imagine a whole load of things we will lose, not to mention the fact that we will be a laughing-stock in the eyes of other forward-looking nations.

We still haven't invoked the A50 provisions but so much stock has been placed on our forthcoming negotiations, the public might conceivably believe that we have some tools at our disposal with which to frighten some or all of the other other 27 sovereign nation states. That, of course, is a complete nonsense and is simply bluff and bravado on the part of the tory government and their media wing. In effect, we will be turning up at a gunfight armed with a knife!

You and your ilk have had 8 months to construct and develop the case you make called, 'potential benefits'. In that, you have failed miserably.

Tom

 

[OxygenJames]

I don't think it is possible to construct a set of reasons for either case. Both positions, leave or remain, involve an element of risk but we don't know how either will play out.

I think we all have thoughts on what we want in the future. The problem BREXIT has is that everything we see as a potential benefit is met on here with a defeatist attitude.

We won't know who was right until about 5 years has elapsed.

Well we've already seen that some of the dire warnings - which people said would result AS SOON AS WE'D VOTED not once we'd actually left - have been shown to be COMPLETELY WRONG.

Fact is - every single time there is a comparison - heavily regulated economies in the long run ALWAYS underperform economies with less regulation. Every time. Like day follows night.

And who gains? The ordinary man on the street. Which is how come the majority of ordinary men and women (the ones that could be arsed to vote) voted as they did - they knew this instinctively - as we all know it to be so - those who have not been brainwashed into thinking Venezuela is a success.

The vested interests will always tell you otherwise.

Take Uber as an example. It does not take a fricking genius to figure out this is good economics. It offers almost the same service at a much lower cost - by the use of technology. And anybody who has tried to get a black cab in central London knows what I mean - who wants to pay £12 to go 3 miles. Not me. But they have to cover the cost of their education - of 3 years riding around London on a moped learning street names. Which Google maps etc has now made TOTALLY POINTLESS. But. Watch the vested interests try to tell you otherwise.

 

[OxygenJames]

It is also true to say that only about a quarter of the U.K. voted to remain in the EU and that about three quarters didn't vote to remain. That is also a fact. So your point is what, exactly?

Yes - whoever this KTM guy/gal is they sure take a very strong anti-trade stance in all this. Which seems very very odd to me given they are a 'trade member'. Most odd.

 

[oldgroaner]

You can't say that a non vote is a vote to remain by default. You can't possibly know that. These types of assumptions underline the fact that it is a completely pointless exercise trying to discuss the pros and cons of BREXIT with you. The above is a perfect example of how you invent facts to support your stance on BREXIT.

Tillson it logically incorrect to assume people who do not vote for change are in favour of it!
There is just no way that there is even a slight probability of that being true.

1. If you want something to change: You vote for it
2. If you don't want something to change, you vote against change or abstain.

Sorry but stop digging, you are down a hole that is flooding old chap.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yup. Ain't that the truth. Living in the past. That whole argument is over.

As for what happens now.... I'm reading Daniel Hannan's excellent book 'What next?' where he examines where the UK can be headed once it has managed to free itself from the restrictions the EU has imposed upon it. What a delightful read. Like seriously offers such a positive take on the whole thing. I strongly suggest neither Tom nor Old Groaner or come to think of it ANY of the others here read it because it may seriously mess with their world view. Tillson though - you'd like it.

Yes, tillson is big on Political fantasy, as it seems you are.
The EU did not "Impose restrictions on us" our benighted Government was involved at every stage in agreement to the varous rules and regualtions from which we have all benefited, for it did after all either veto or opt out of everything it didn't like, but don't let facts get in the way of your imagination.
The argument by the way is not over by any means, even after the fact of leaving, it is simply a matter of waiting till the time is right to reverse this mad decision made by a small majority.

 

[oldgroaner]

You want something to be optimistic about - read Hannan's book.

Harry Potter novels will prove closer to the truth of course.

 

[tillson]

We're getting on for 13,000 posts and I can't recall your 'we', ever describing any positive benefit from secession. That is why 'remainers' like me have repeatedly asked for 'leavers' to furnish that information.

There has been plenty of aspirational guff, interspersed by nonsensical fantasy about 'taking back control, regaining lost sovereignty??......and arranging our own trade deals with countries twice as far away as France and Iberia, essentially the breadbasket of Europe.

Frankly, I really can't see what the UK has to gain from this stupidity but I can imagine a whole load of things we will lose, not to mention the fact that we will be a laughing-stock in the eyes of other forward-looking nations.

You and your ilk have had 8 months to construct and develop the case you make called, 'potential benefits'. In that, you have failed miserably.

Tom

......and this is why it is not worth engaging in any dialogue over the pros and cons of BREXIT. You and others of your ilk have an unshakeable predisposition towards remain, are deaf to any other ideas and default to the left wing tactic of smearing anyone with an opposing view.

So, I am afraid you will be sucking it up. The referendum happened, the government has listened, the government has acted on the advice given to them by the people and the government will take us out of the EU. You, OG and the rest of your ilk are coming with us. One day you will thank us for what we have done.

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't think it is possible to construct a set of reasons for either case. Both positions, leave or remain, involve an element of risk but we don't know how either will play out.

I think we all have thoughts on what we want in the future. The problem BREXIT has is that everything we see as a potential benefit is met on here with a defeatist attitude.

We won't know who was right until about 5 years has elapsed.

Actually we know already just as we know that driving at 70mph into a brick wall isn't a good idea.

 

[oldgroaner]

You can't say that a non vote is a vote to remain by default. You can't possibly know that. These types of assumptions underline the fact that it is a completely pointless exercise trying to discuss the pros and cons of BREXIT with you. The above is a perfect example of how you invent facts to support your stance on BREXIT.

No facts available still tillson? just platitudes?

 

[tillson]

Tillson it logically incorrect to assume people who do not vote for change are in favour of it!
There is just no way that there is even a slight probability of that being true.

1. If you want something to change: You vote for it
2. If you don't want something to change, you vote against change or abstain.

Sorry but stop digging, you are down a hole that is flooding old chap.

Almost there, except that (2) should read, If you do not vote, you are either not eligible to vote, or you don't give a toss either way.

I know you really really want it to mean that they are closet remainers, but they aren't.

 

[oldgroaner]

......and this is why it is not worth engaging in any dialogue over the pros and cons of BREXIT. You and others of your ilk have an unshakeable predisposition towards remain, are deaf to any other ideas and default to the left wing tactic of smearing anyone with an opposing view.

So, I am afraid you will be sucking it up. The referendum happened, the government has listened, the government has acted on the advice given to them by the people and the government will take us out of the EU. You, OG and the rest of your ilk are coming with us. One day you will thank us for what we have done.

As I have said before many times, wishful thinking is no substitute for facts and so far not a single one has come from the leave camp, though i have actually hoped it would prove otherwise.
No facts tillson, find some positive facts.

 

[tillson]

As I have said before many times, wishful thinking is no substitute for facts and so far not a single one has come from the leave camp, though i have actually hoped it would prove otherwise.
No facts tillson, find some positive facts.

All you need to know is that you are coming out of the EU. There is a fact for you.

You won't accept any other facts, you just dismiss them all the time, so there is no point.

 

[oldtom]

it is not worth engaging in any dialogue over the pros and cons of BREXIT

Oh go on; give me a laugh by telling me something about just the pros of 'Brexit'. You've had 8 months to think up something that might just be construed as a fact but anything with even a suspicion of evidence would be fine.

Going off at a tangent, did you realise that it is now 10 days since your long-time supporter and fellow admirer of fascist rabble-rousers, 'zlatan', has posted on here. It matters little though as no sooner did he take a sabbatical than 'OxygenJames' entered the discussion, slotting perfectly into the same role, spouting exactly the same kind of drivel. Huge coincidence that!

Tom

 

[oldtom]

All you need to know is that you are coming out of the EU. There is a fact for you.

It is not a fact; at least, not yet anyway!

There is still the matter of A50 and beyond that, probably 2 years entrenched in what has been euphemistically referred to as negotiations before we might be considered out of the EU.

By that time, if we ever get to that point, even the biggest fools among the simpletons who backed a bunch of lying, self-serving fascists, will almost certainly have come to understand that there is nothing in it for them, just as there is nothing in it for the UK. The diminishing buying power of the domestic budget will become increasingly persuasive, as will large numbers of redundancies and a scarcity of foreign labour, put off by this government's stance on immigrants per se.

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

Failed to mention that now they are nett contributors to the EU there is a likelihood the Irish people will join us by having a referendum to leave the EU now that the benefits of being a member have dried up and that they feel closer to the UK than the EU.

Are you saying that Ireland would like to be part of the U.K.?
KudosDave

 

[tillson]

Oh go on; give me a laugh by telling me something about just the pros of 'Brexit'. You've had 8 months to think up something that might just be construed as a fact but anything with even a suspicion of evidence would be fine.

Going off at a tangent, did you realise that it is now 10 days since your long-time supporter and fellow admirer of fascist rabble-rousers, 'zlatan', has posted on here. It matters little though as no sooner did he take a sabbatical than 'OxygenJames' entered the discussion, slotting perfectly into the same role, spouting exactly the same kind of drivel. Huge coincidence that!

Tom

Why do you think that I feel the slightest inclination to prove anything to you? Why would I want to do that?

It didn't work when you and derv tried to suggest that I was posting under a different name and it won't work now.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I take the opposite view to you in that I think that those who didn't vote, would have actually voted to leave, so it's actually 70%+ in favour of leaving. However, we will never know what the absent voters would have chosen, so we can't sensibly count them. That leaves us with the leave majority which is all to familiar to pro-remain.

I don't perceive a requirement to convince anyone. You can either get behind BREXIT and give it every chance of success, or you can stand on the sidelines sporting a mardy lip and pulling the wings off flies.

Till son,you asked me to state what negatives has Brexit caused,I gave you a list,all of which are very serious.....your only response was that I was discrediting Brexit,which I suppose is true.
Now,please give us your idea of the positives of Brexit.
My experience is that Brexiters don't really know what we are working towards but are reluctant to admit they made a mistake.
Please a list of the positives?
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

I don't think it is possible to construct a set of reasons for either case. Both positions, leave or remain, involve an element of risk but we don't know how either will play out.

I think we all have thoughts on what we want in the future. The problem BREXIT has is that everything we see as a potential benefit is met on here with a defeatist attitude.

We won't know who was right until about 5 years has elapsed.

I gave you a list of possible Brexit negatives,it would be an understandable Brexit negotiating stance if you argued against my list.
Brexiters don't seem capable of this.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Yup. Ain't that the truth. Living in the past. That whole argument is over.

As for what happens now.... I'm reading Daniel Hannan's excellent book 'What next?' where he examines where the UK can be headed once it has managed to free itself from the restrictions the EU has imposed upon it. What a delightful read. Like seriously offers such a positive take on the whole thing. I strongly suggest neither Tom nor Old Groaner or come to think of it ANY of the others here read it because it may seriously mess with their world view. Tillson though - you'd like it.

I am very interested in the direction that Hannan has indicated,please tell us?
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

The Lords voted for a meaningful vote on May's deal ,at the end of her negotiations. May says that she has already given a vote.....but we all realise that this is a vote for the deal or no deal.
She seems happy to come away with no deal and fall back on WTO tariffs,that might be quite good for the government,collecting 10% tariff on every German car imported into the UK.
She is supported by Brexiters who see any attempt to influence Brexit as traitors against 'the will of the people'. But Brexiters should also look positive on this final vote,there are many aspects of a hard Brexit that even committed Brexiters would be very unhappy about and they would have no way of doing anything about it.
For example,if she agrees to pay the exit bill of £60 million,there are a lot of Leavers who thought we were going to get £11 million in,not £60 million out,but we all are powerless to stop her.
We,Leavers and Remainers,once A50 is triggered have given Theresa May a mandate to do what she likes in the negotiations,I must say I don't trust her,I don't fully understand her idea of the end game,it may be ugly for all of us except the fascist right wingers. She looks like your favourite aunt but she could be the acceptable face of a bunch of dangerous right wingers,who could take our country off in a direction that was never intended in the referendum vote.
KudosDave