Brexit, for once some facts.

[Woosh]

I was here (since 1977) and witnessed. The US pension funds moved in and bought all the medium sized companies they could, closed the factories and shipped the machines off to the eastern block countries before they even joined the EU. Textile factories went to North Africa. Nothing to do with the EU.

The decline of heavy industries happens mostly in the EU era.
Hayange was an agricultural village before the De Wendels family started a steel mill there (Ignace de Wendel started 'Le Creusot'). At its peak, the mill employed about 30,000 people. The village became a town. When Fos-sur-Mer started, its fate was sealed. It was eventually sold to Mittal and renamed ArcelorMittal. 2,500 worked there. Now the mill is closed, but officially, mothballed.
That story is repeated across the EU hundreds times.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

The decline of heavy industries happens mostly in the EU era.
Hayange was an agricultural village before the De Wendels family started a steel mill there (Ignace de Wendel started 'Le Creusot'). At its peak, the mill employed about 30,000 people. The village became a town. When Fos-sur-Mer started, its fate was sealed. It was eventually sold to Mittal and renamed ArcelorMittal. 2,500 worked there. Now the mill is closed, but officially, mothballed.
That story is repeated across the EU hundreds times.

the fact that some blame the EU because it happened during this period is the problem though isn't it? The EU didn't cause this decline. Other things that happened during this period are things like... me being born in 1975... equally its not my fault, or at least not that I'm aware of.

 

[oldgroaner]

http://www.politico.eu/article/brexit-negotiation-issues-worrying-the-european-parliament/

You can't be more European than the French and yet, because the EU pushes for political union at such a speed and depth that more than one out of three French now disagree.
Let's just wait until April, the landscape may be very different.
My contention is that the EU will need the UK a lot more than UK needing EU.

In your Dreams!

 

[oldgroaner]

The decline of heavy industries happens mostly in the EU era.
Hayange was an agricultural village before the De Wendels family started a steel mill there (Ignace de Wendel started 'Le Creusot'). At its peak, the mill employed about 30,000 people. The village became a town. When Fos-sur-Mer started, its fate was sealed. It was eventually sold to Mittal and renamed ArcelorMittal. 2,500 worked there. Now the mill is closed, but officially, mothballed.
That story is repeated across the EU hundreds times.

Across the UK Ten Thousand, so your point is?

 

[Woosh]

Across the UK Ten Thousand, so your point is?

The point is the EU is responsible for the decline. The EU is responsible for removing protection of the local businesses, for stopping local governments to come to the rescue of those running into difficulties with their stringent rules on state aids. The EU then removes barriers to outsiders buying out local businesses.
The EU facilitates the export of jobs. Before you jump to the EU's defense, think a bit more about the imbalance of representation in the EU parliament. Big businesses are well looked after, the blue collar guys are not. The EU is more concerned with limiting the number of working hours than protecting the jobs themselves.
When I lived in France, you'd never get fired unless you've screwed up big time. Now millions of French have weekly contracts.

 

[flecc]

think a bit more about the imbalance of representation in the EU parliament. Big businesses are well looked after, the blue collar guys are not.

Eh?

Blue collar guys can vote for MEPs, businesses can't.
.

 

[Woosh]

they vote for their favorite party. They have no idea which idiots get sent to Bruxelles. The latter work for their party, not those who voted for them. The EU needs to reform on this, it should have two houses, one with direct representation and one with PR.
Big businesses lobby directly just one parliament, the EU one.
No need to learn a foreign language.

 

[oldgroaner]

The point is the EU is responsible for the decline. The EU is responsible for removing protection of the local businesses, for stopping local governments to come to the rescue of those running into difficulties with their stringent rules on state aids. The EU then removes barriers to outsiders buying out local businesses.
The EU facilitates the export of jobs. Before you jump to the EU's defense, think a bit more about the imbalance of representation in the EU parliament. Big businesses are well looked after, the blue collar guys are not. The EU is more concerned with limiting the number of working hours than protecting the jobs themselves.
When I lived in France, you'd never get fired unless you've screwed up big time. Now millions of French have weekly contracts.

What nonsense! since when did a UK Government have a policy of Bailing out failing businesses?
Look at what happened recently with the steel industry, the exact opposite of your claim
The EU wanted to impose tariffs on Chinese Steel imports and the UK Government opposed that!
Sorry but that argument you have made makes no sense at all.
This Government wouldn't even support Nationalised Industries and that was nothing whatever to do with the EU

 

[oldtom]

essentially, we're part of a trade block, so lots of laws have to be in common, if we have trade agreements with anyone post Brexit, including EU or US etc etc, we'll need to have laws in place to make sure we match with their requirements. In addition we are part of the EU currently, so they haven't been imposed on us, we were part of the group that generated the laws.

Intelligent people understand that! - unsurprisingly, those are the people who voted to remain in the EU and still believe that is the best future for the UK.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

The fact that Brexit will not solve the problems in UK society and not put extra cash into the NHS.

I still can't understand how you think a group of 700+ million people can need a group of 60million more than the other way round.

The only thing the EU needs is for Brexit to show the UK is worse off and the EU will continue nicely....

The 'Brexidiots' are deep in denial and can't bring themselves to admit that they have been 'done up like a kipper' by the lying cheats and shysters of the tory and UKIP parties. It's exactly the same as striding out across any central London thoroughfare junction when the little pedestrian light is red - you must know something nasty is likely to befall you or you are intent on suicide - either way, you have to be out of your mind!

Tom

 

[oldtom]

The point is the EU is responsible for the decline.

Care in the community really isn't working, is it? Perhaps that's the fault of the EU too!

Tom

 

[oldtom]

One of our MPs understands where the blame lies for the state of the nation:

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

I read the American Newspapers, great comedy at times, this from Todays New York Daily News America (circulation <500,000
"
For no specific reason, here’s a reminder of the order of succession if President Trump — and any of his immediate successors — were to somehow leave office very soon.

1. Vice President Pence

2. House Speaker Paul Ryan

3. President pro tempore of the Senate Orrin Hatch

4. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson

5. Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin

6. Defense Secretary James Mattis

7. Attorney General Jeff Sessions

8. Acting Secretary of the Interior Kevin Haugrud (nominee Ryan Zinke has not been confirmed by the Senate)

9. Acting Agriculture Secretary Michael Scuse (nominee Sonny Perdue has not been confirmed)

Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly is last in line.
(ANDREW HARNIK/AP)
10. Commerce Secretary (vacant seat; nominee Wilbur Ross has not been confirmed)

11. Acting Labor Secretary Ed Hugler (nominee Andy Puzder has not been confirmed)

12. Health and Human Services Secretary Tom Price

13. Acting Housing and Urban Development Secretary Craig Clemmensen (nominee Ben Carson has not been confirmed)

14. Transportation Secretary Elaine Chao

15. Acting Energy Secretary Grace Bochenek (nominee Rick Perry has not been confirmed)

16. Education Secretary Betsy DeVos

17. Veteran Affairs Secretary David Shulkin

18. Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly

Note: And any immediate successors......What prompted that one wonders?

And quote of the Day from a Denver Post reader letter
"It appears the swamp is draining itself."

 

[Kudoscycles]

Then you have not met a true brexiter.

How do you recognise one?
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

How do you recognise one?
KudosDave

Ask them if they believe in Father Christmas?

 

[Woosh]

What nonsense! since when did a UK Government have a policy of Bailing out failing businesses?
Look at what happened recently with the steel industry, the exact opposite of your claim
The EU wanted to impose tariffs on Chinese Steel imports and the UK Government opposed that!
Sorry but that argument you have made makes no sense at all.
This Government wouldn't even support Nationalised Industries and that was nothing whatever to do with the EU

whether the tories blame EU state aid rule or not in the case of Tata steel mill, it is naive to ignore the effect of EU state aid rule. Basically, weak businesses are left to fail. All over the EU, in the name of 'fair' competition. If you happen to work for one of those weak businesses, will you accept that it's fair?
Another rule is all government work must be opened to all EU companies.
For example, my Borough Council wanted some e-bikes, I have had to bid against some Dutch firm supplying Dutch bikes. I lost in this case.
These rules do not benefit the locals and over time, destroy local jobs.

 

[anotherkiwi]

whether the tories blame EU state aid rule or not in the case of Tata steel mill, it is naive to ignore the effect of EU state aid rule. Basically, weak businesses are left to fail. All over the EU, in the name of 'fair' competition. If you happen to work for one of those weak businesses, will you accept that it's fair?
Another rule is all government work must be opened to all EU companies.
For example, my Borough Council wanted some e-bikes, I have to bid against some Dutch firm supplying Dutch bikes. I lost in this case.
These rules do not benefit the locals and over time, destroy local jobs.

My business failed, I didn't blame the EU, I blamed the banks. France now has quite decent small business legislation with better protection from banker abuse but it came a little bit too late for me. It doesn't have anything to do with the EU, it is French legislation.

I have found work across Europe including the UK (I was going to add "and Scotland" but realised... ), Japan, the USA, etc. in competition with local companies. Some of those jobs were public tenders, the paperwork is kind of boring but the money wasn't too bad.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

whether the tories blame EU state aid rule or not in the case of Tata steel mill, it is naive to ignore the effect of EU state aid rule. Basically, weak businesses are left to fail. All over the EU, in the name of 'fair' competition. If you happen to work for one of those weak businesses, will you accept that it's fair?
Another rule is all government work must be opened to all EU companies.
For example, my Borough Council wanted some e-bikes, I have had to bid against some Dutch firm supplying Dutch bikes. I lost in this case.
These rules do not benefit the locals and over time, destroy local jobs.

So you couldn't compete with a Dutch firm, and you're blaming the EU for that?

 

[Woosh]

So you couldn't compete with a Dutch firm, and you're blaming the EU for that?

You know I can't be specific about that particular tender, I think it illustrates why half of the UK are fed up with the EU creating forever more market rules.

 

[gray198]

whether the tories blame EU state aid rule or not in the case of Tata steel mill, it is naive to ignore the effect of EU state aid rule. Basically, weak businesses are left to fail. All over the EU, in the name of 'fair' competition. If you happen to work for one of those weak businesses, will you accept that it's fair?
Another rule is all government work must be opened to all EU companies.
For example, my Borough Council wanted some e-bikes, I have had to bid against some Dutch firm supplying Dutch bikes. I lost in this case.
These rules do not benefit the locals and over time, destroy local jobs.

I wonder whether we will be able to make the trains etc for hs2 or will it have to go to Siemens as in the new underground trains.