Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

unfortunately the world is not ideal, its a hard uncompromising place full of conflict. Corbyn,s ideals one day when the entire human race has grown up will be met but not in our time or our grandkids either.

Of course we can't just switch to the ideal, but we can step towards it bit by bit.

Since the EU and its earlier forms has uniquely almost removed the conflict you complain of for some 70 years, why abandon it? That doesn't make any sense.

And that's not all the EU has done, it and its courts have done wonders for human rights and the protection of we ordinary people from the internal sources of personal harm. So why abandon it? That doesn't make any sense either.

Opposition with the knowledge that it could destroy the EU is nothing more than an attempt to ensure the world continues as the hard uncompromising place full of conflict you mention. Ergo that opposition is de facto evil.
.

 

[mike killay]

Mike, there was a degree of irony in my post that seems to have been lost on you but that's neither here nor there and doesn't really surprise me.

Your political opinions on British communism extend to two conversations it seems from what you report and that, therefore, is sufficient for you to make an informed judgement on the merits and demerits of communism. Fascinating!

You then accuse me of getting on my high horse in order to belittle you. I really don't think so Mike; you do a damned fine job of that all by yourself with your blind, tory bigotry and support for Nazi-inspired politicians who fool you with their faux patriotism delivered in easy to digest soundbites.

Just so you are perfectly clear, I am not communist, Stalinist, Trotskyist or any other Soviet-inspired appendage you might wish to utilise. I most certainly declare that I am a British patriot and I believe in the value and equality of people, regardless of race, creed or colour. Because of my beliefs, the only political environment which represents me is that encompassed by the British Labour Party.

Any party which puts wealth creation and profit at the top of their agenda before the needs of the poorest and most helpless in this world is offensive to me and the current dictatorial administration is arguably the worst collection of divisive policymakers in modern British history.

Tom

Well, OK Tom, we all guessed where you were coming from.
Again, you take the schoolmaster tone. Of course my opinions about Communism are not restricted to just two people and you know it, so why say what you said?
So you don't want anyone to make a profit...fine
Just because I support the Tories does not make me a blind Tory bigot, nor are the Tories inspired by the Nazis.
Again, you know this so why do you say such daft things?
It is pointless to continue this discussion.
Over.

 

[oldgroaner]

i don't trust any politicians but i have to vote, be it political parties or in the referendum, as to not do would make me feel unable to have an opinion on these matters. as you say 'the very people who got me into this situation' may well have been the conservatives, although things still continued to decline whichever party was in power. it might not be the eu's fault but different governments here have not improved the situation so i decided that maybe it might improve if we are out of the eu. it gives me hope for the future which i did not have before, maybe things will get worse, i don't know. blame us idiots if it does go tits up but if the political parties had listened to people over the years maybe it wouldn't have come to this.

I sympathise with your intention, but disagree that cutting ourselves off from the EU will bring about the changes you quite rightly desire, as now you are simply further under the thumb of your worst enemies with no one else to turn to.
You voted with the best of intentions, sadly not getting the result desired.
How were you to know? So many promises were made that are now proved to be lies?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[tillson]

That post ranks as the worst I have seen in this thread.

The reason I say that is that you have singularly failed to identify, (or completely ignored), the warning signals apparent to anyone with a sense of history. Amongst those is the particular use of language redolent of 1930s Germany, with the denunciation of all opposing opinion causing it to be regarded as treasonous; calls for people to perform their patriotic duty, etc.

You appear to be in complete denial that the current crop of far-right politicians are in any way akin to their 1930s predecessors both here and in Germany - as if because they haven't yet begun torturing and exterminating particular groups of people that that marks them as different. The racism inherent in their raison d'être has been plain for all the world to see, in the UK, in the USA and in every country where right-wing extremists have risen to prominence in recent times.

Will the penny only drop with you when we see another holocaust to match that of the mid-twentieth century.....or does that notion seem ridiculous to you? You, like some of the others of your ilk, seem prepared to ignore all the warning signals and provide the lunatic right-wing with the support they crave - the oxygen required for them to grow and prosper. You seem oblivious to the reality that these people care not a jot for you or anyone else and you continue to harbour the notion that once in positions of power, these monsters will sort the whole political and socio-economic ills of the UK.

Such beliefs are the stuff of fantasy and the kind of outpourings delivered by the proponents of 'Brexit' both before and after the referendum have been demonstrated to be complete and utter lies, even admitted latterly by those who made the claims.

Nonetheless, you and others like you blindly blunder on in your perverted belief that the future looks great for this country, placing your trust in liars and charlatans. There is a complete lack of understanding that the very same people driving the 'Brexit' programme and who will be leading this country following any deal with the EU are incapable of sorting any of the major problems afflicting the country now. For some reason beyond the comprehension of intelligent people, you believe that those far-right extremists will suddenly change their modus operandi and create a fairer society for all our people.

Frankly, your comparison between what you consider to be 'true Nazis' and those of today demonstrates your complete lack of understanding of the meaning of fascism but I can't say I'm surprised as you have never been able to provide any economic, military or strategic case for 'Brexit', only displaying a hatred for those people seeking to enter the UK as immigrants or as refugees.

People like you bring another major international war closer than at any time since 1963.

Tom

old tom, why do you so frequently go on the offensive accusing people who disagree with you as harbouring a hatred of foreigners? Of being fascists? Of being Nazis?

Passion is evident in your posts, but I think that same passion has consumed you. I firmly believe that such is your fixation and obsession with Nazis that you have begun to envisage situations that are non existent.

You accuse me of hating people entering the uk as either immigrants of as refugees. This is a good indicator of just how serious your problem has become.

I genuinely believe that you are ill, but quite harmless.

 

[oldgroaner]

Nobody can really aargue against Tom's, Fleccs and Corbyn's idealism. ( OG is a different matter) But unfortunately the world is not ideal, its a hard uncompromising place full of conflict. Corbyn,s ideals one day when the entire human race has grown up will be met but not in our time or our grandkids either.
Tom also ruins both what are good warnings from history and a caring viewpoint by being totally devoid of empathy for opposing views...With all respect Tom if you just stop judging and stuck to your ideals without insulting you,d be taken far more seriously...Sorry but you start to sound bigoted. (read your reply to Tilson ( and mike)after he has agreed with much of what you say)
You do yourself a disservice even when your points are valid. ( no right minded person could argue against many of your ideals)

You and I actually fundamentally agree on so much we differ on how to achieve those goals.
OG just loves arguing, googling, cut and pasting and annoying me. He,s pretty good at all 4...or is it 5...by his own admission he is quite mad..and often angry...

No zlatan, I am never angry, do not try to see your own character in others.
Your interests are by your own admission simply selfish, and you even boast about it.
Why should you make me angry? such attitudes are fortunately those of a small and insignificant minority, fortunately.
Shorn of all your fancy words brexit is an opportunity to exploit others, and that is what the Tory politicians see in it too.
The actions they will take once it takes place will harm the public, but you hope prove profitable.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Zlatan]

No zlatan, I am never angry, do not try to see your own character in others.
Your interests are by your own admission simply selfish, and you even boast about it.
Why should you make me angry? such attitudes are fortunately those of a small and insignificant minority, fortunately.
Shorn of all your fancy words brexit is an opportunity to exploit others, and that is what the Tory politicians see in it too.
The actions they will take once it takes place will harm the public, but you hope prove profitable.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

You need to clean your crystal ball OG...Oh how I wish you were right...wish I could fathom a way out to make a few quid..in mean time I,ll just carry on drawing my pension between visits to Monaco and Bransons little island. Your imagination knows no bounds..you really are quite mad...

Still not worked out how I made money by buying a financially reposseded car 8 years ago...which I resold . ( LHD cars don't sell too well in uk) along with both land and property in Spain....all at a big big loss...because Spain is in such dire straits...but hey anything is possible in OG's head.
I,ll tell you one thing OG,I lost loads more money on land alone than Greek bloke lost on car I ended up with...Where is sympathy for me and other expats either sitting on negative equity in Spain or having dropped thousands into Spanish coffers.
You don't know what you are talking about OG. Everything you quote has just been gleaned off Google.

 

[oldgroaner]

You need to clean your crystal ball OG...Oh how I wish you were right...wish I could fathom a way out to make a few quid..in mean time I,ll just carry on drawing my pension between visits to Monaco and Bransons little island. Your imagination knows no bounds..you really are quite mad...

Still not worked out how I made money by buying a financially reposseded car 8 years ago...which I resold . ( LHD cars don't sell too well in uk) along with both land and property in Spain....all at a big big loss...because Spain is in such dire straits...but hey anything is possible in OG's head.

Of course you will find some way of profiting, that's your reason for living isn't it?
Are you now trying to say you didn't make a profit on these deals? do try to make your mind up, but then that does seem to cause you trouble, doesn't it?

 

[boyabouttown]

I sympathise with your intention, but disagree that cutting ourselves off from the EU will bring about the changes you quite rightly desire, as now you are simply further under the thumb of your worst enemies with no one else to turn to.
You voted with the best of intentions, sadly not getting the result desired.
How were you to know? So many promises were made that are now proved to be lies?

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

i don't feel under the thumb, the country is governed by an elected party. i will turn to the labour party as usual, if i feel that the government is not working hard enough,(i would vote labour even if things were looking good) as i hope the rest of the country would, even if it's lib dem, ukip, green etc. i thought that was the point, if the country as a whole feels the government is doing a **** job, vote for another party that promises us utopia. then repeat the cycle. i sometimes wonder if we would be better off with a dictator, take the vote away from us people who know nothing about economics or the workings of the eu etc. seems some of the posters on here know enough about running a country that we could have a poll for which member we want as dictator. can't see any of you doing any worse than the current set of politicians.

 

[Zlatan]

Of course you will find some way of profiting, that's your reason for living isn't it?
Are you now trying to say you didn't make a profit on these deals? do try to make your mind up, but then that does seem to cause you trouble, doesn't it?

I bought the car to use, which I did, but even had I made money on it, so what...Kudos makes money in every bike he sells. That's how things work OG. Like I said, I lost thousands on house, land , dropped a bit on car..but again so what.
You latch in to anything OG..you are obsessed...and mad..
Why on earth make a big issue out of a comment I made agreeing with a comment Kudos made..
Yes,I bought a Porsche Bixster,LHD, 2.7..which had been a financial repo in Greece.. .at a very good price...from that you,ve decided I,m some international arms trader. You are delusional.

 

[oldgroaner]

,ll tell you one thing OG,I lost loads more money on land alone than Greek bloke lost on car I ended up with...Where is sympathy for me and other expats either sitting on negative equity in Spain or having dropped thousands into Spanish coffers.

So that's the problem is it? you weren't as smart as you thought you were despite all the fine advice on investing you give so freely?

In that case I sympathise, it must be frustrating to lose out on what you thought was a "nice little earner" in Spanish Property, but why do you blame the EU for that?
Because really on the one hand you call it corrupt and too powerful and on the other too weak to protect your investment.

And paradoxically want Britain to break away from the EU because you blame it for ruining your investment there?
Certainly I sympathise with your disappointment .
You took a chance and it didn't work out
And now want to take another with Brexit.
Need some advice? hang on to the Spanish properties, they will be handy to move to when the proverbial hits the fan here.

Incidentally are you having a bit of a creative turn ?
Where has the reference to you being an "international arms trader"come from, is there something else you have been doing you want to brag about?

 

[Zlatan]

i don't feel under the thumb, the country is governed by an elected party. i will turn to the labour party as usual, if i feel that the government is not working hard enough,(i would vote labour even if things were looking good) as i hope the rest of the country would, even if it's lib dem, ukip, green etc. i thought that was the point, if the country as a whole feels the government is doing a **** job, vote for another party that promises us utopia. then repeat the cycle. i sometimes wonder if we would be better off with a dictator, take the vote away from us people who know nothing about economics or the workings of the eu etc. seems some of the posters on here know enough about running a country that we could have a poll for which member we want as dictator. can't see any of you doing any worse than the current set of politicians.

FFS not OG or Tom..they,d have me and Tillson shot..

 

[Zlatan]

So that's the problem is it? you weren't as smart as you thought you were despite all the fine advice on investing you give so freely?

In that case I sympathise, it must be frustrating to lose out on what you thought was a "nice little earner" in Spanish Property, but why do you blame the EU for that?
Because really on the one hand you call it corrupt and too powerful and on the other too weak to protect your investment.

And paradoxically want Britain to break away from the EU because you blame it for ruining your investment there?
Certainly I sympathise with your disappointment .
You took a chance and it didn't work out
And now want to take another with Brexit.
Need some advice? hang on to the Spanish properties, they will be handy to move to when the proverbial hits the fan here.

Yep, I should have listened to Peter Hargreaves all along, but bought property in Spain ffor holidays..bit warmer than Brid...
I,m putting you back on ignore OG. This is pointless. Go and pester somebody else...please.
But no I didn't. I expected buying property in Spain to lose money. It generally does.

 

[oldgroaner]

I sometimes wonder if we would be better off with a dictator, take the vote away from us people who know nothing about economics or the workings of the eu etc. seems some of the posters on here know enough about running a country that we could have a poll for which member we want as dictator. can't see any of you doing any worse than the current set of politicians.

Well done, you have exactly described the situation we are now in as a Dictator will decide the fate of the country and even if you don't like that, or what happens afterwards there is no guarantee that things will change with a general election is there?

The Government will lie and make promises just as they did at the referendum the press will say there is no alternative, the EU is to blame, and nothing will change.

 

[oldgroaner]

FFS not OG or Tom..they,d have me and Tillson shot..

Not at all I support Alternative Comedy as a necessary part of the Political process, I have said before that your contribution is necessary so that crazy ideas get a fair hearing.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yep, I should have listened to Peter Hargreaves all along, but bought property in Spain ffor holidays..bit warmer than Brid...
I,m putting you back on ignore OG. This is pointless. Go and pester somebody else...please.
But no I didn't. I expected buying property in Spain to lose money. It generally does.

Bye!

 

[Zlatan]

No OG, both you and Tom are both absolute bigots. You search for the tiniest of issues and theb exagerate them to attack anyone who disagrees with either of you.
We,ve seen it time and time again on here. Reasonable posters simply stop contributing realising its pointless and will merely lead to them being insulted..Good example being Mike...he,s now left the thread.

 

[boyabouttown]

Well done, you have exactly described the situation we are now in as a Dictator will decide the fate of the country and even if you don't like that, or what happens afterwards there is no guarantee that things will change with a general election is there?

The Government will lie and make promises just as they did at the referendum the press will say there is no alternative, the EU is to blame, and nothing will change.

don't understand your point that we have a dictator, thought the conservatives were voted in. whenever has anyone thought that there is a guarantee in politics. i think you underestimate people in thinking we believe the promises and lies of all the parties and press. we vote in the hope that things will get better, unfortunately there seems a lack of trustworthy and honourable people in our political system to give our vote to.

 

[oldtom]

I know the left seem to have a problem with Jews, but you really should stop splashing around all of this Nazi nonsense, it's not right.

What crass stupidity from a Nigel Farage fan!

Not only is OG right, the Nazi nonsense has always been the province of the right - the far right! I don't think you will find many political or military leaders among the cast of those in the dock at Nuremberg who could conceivably be called left wingers or even centrist in their views.

Shocking! I really believe you need help.

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

What crass stupidity from a Nigel Farage fan!

Not only is OG right, the Nazi nonsense has always been the province of the right - the far right! I don't think you will find many political or military leaders among the cast of those in the dock at Nuremberg who could conceivably be called left wingers or even centrist in their views.

Shocking! I really believe you need help.

Tom

Afraid somebody is loosing touch with reality here.Come on Tom leave it out, this is absolutely ridiculous. You are making a mockery of this debate. Its going places not worth visiting..
It was yourself and OG bringing Nazis and Fascism into this. Its barmy. A warning from history is one thing but pushing a Nazi/ Fascism media conspiracy is utterly bonkers. Its not worth arguing against.

 

[oldtom]

Good example Mike...he,s now gone..

I don't understand the sentence if in fact it qualifies as a sentence but if you feel so strongly, why don't you go too?

Being as you are simply an internet troll and have no connection with the world of electrically-assisted cycling, you really have no place here. You set out from the start of your unwelcome contributions here simply to make a nuisance of yourself and you just picked a side, any side would have sufficed in your case for your mischievous purpose, guaranteeing that you would receive the plaudits of a few.

Tom