Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

Like I said unbelievable.

A certain poster calls all Tory voters scum, all brexit voters idiots. Another labels them racist calls me a bigot and the forum self appointed police say nothing.
Some on here should be ashamed of themselves for both their bigoted attitudes and the way they respond to posters.They plainly wont be because they are so self righteous with no thought what so ever to others opinions. I include you in that group flecc after deciding I was a troll for disagreeing with you.
Yes ,I have insulted OG, once in retaliation and once in a poor attempt at humour.
There is not another post where I have broken any forum rules. Some cant post without doing so.
This thread is doing cycling a disservice.

You are quite right Zlatan, the majority on here are in favour of the EU. I believe that this line of thinking goes hand in hand with the electric bike, eco-warrior, tree-hugger character that such a website has the propensity to attract.

For people who purport to be favour of the EU and the union of people that membership supposedly brings, I see a great deal of intolerance coming from them. Slurs, insults and a general dismissiveness towards those with opposing views seems to be the order of the day. I quite like the principles of socialism and the aim of fairness and equality. Sadly, I am always repelled by the characters who haunt the socialist / left wing ground. I find many to be rank hypocrites who are totally unwilling to abide by the principles which they claim to hold in such high regard. This thread is littered with examples and it is sickening.

 

[tillson]

This thread actually eptitomises the remain campaign, and its exactly why they lost and why we are in such a mess.

Absolutely. I believe that if another referendum were to be held, BREXIT would increase its majority vote. This would be entirely down to the disgraceful way in which the remain side have conducted themselves since June.

They have done nothing but alienate themselves by pursuing the, "you were to stupid to know what you were voting for" line. It's been a master class in how to become a loser.

 

[flecc]

I include you in that group flecc after deciding I was a troll for disagreeing with you.

I didn't decide you were an internet troll because you disagreed with me, many disagree with me in here but I don't regard them as trolls.

For example, I have the greatest respect for Tillson who is a highly valued forum member while being an ardent Brexiter, as you must have seen in this thread. Tillson has similarly expressed his respect for me. I'm not attacking you for solely being a Brexiter, I am criticising your behaviour in the pedelecs forum.

You became a member to ask about a possible alternative use for an e-bike motor in a swimming application. After receiving some courteous and helpful answers you ended that thread by saying it was too cold so you wouldn't bother at present, a hint at what was to come.

Your legitimate use of this forum was at an end then, but instead of departing you instead chose to enter a cycling thread and proceed to inform us that cycling was dangerous and cycling in town was madness. In a forum dedicated to a form of cycling that was typical troll behaviour, wilfully confrontational.

You continued that confrontation with misuse of cycling death data and inaccuracy, such as insisting that most at risk of deaths in London were male when, as I showed you, they were in fact female.

You went on to be insulting to other members, including me, by inferring we didn't care about the death rate. So I showed you how much had been done and achieved, the proportional reduction in London cycling deaths making it the safest place in Britain to cycle. In response you ignored the facts and continued to insist on how dangerous our cycling was. Ignoring facts like that in order to continue an argument is typical internet troll behaviour.

Still not content you entered this political thread and adopted the opposing view to the majority posting here. You were of course fully entitled to do that, but you were not entitled to use the methods you did. One of those was to deliberately go off subject in answers while pretending your answer was legitimate. That is typical internet troll behaviour.

Another was what you did to me on more than one occasion, refer inaccurately to a posting I made without using the quote facility which would show you were misrepresenting what I posted. That is a favourite internet troll device and very bad internet manners.

You have made a number of references to forum rules, saying we were breaking them while ignoring that your behaviour was in breach of those same rules. That again is a favourite internet troll device.

Zlatan, you might not wish to be an internet troll, you might not have intended to be an internet troll, you may not recognise you are an internet troll. But by your own behaviour as I've shown, you have repeatedly defined yourself to be an internet troll.

If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck.
.

 

[Woosh]

Here is the link to the Telegraph article that OG referred to.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/29/migrants-will-come-uk-entire-eu-populations-britain-stays-single/

The author made a mistake, the EU population is of course about 731 millions. The (pro brexit)) Migration Watch group claimed 12 millions EU migrants would come here in the next 25 years if the UK remains in the Single Market. They estimated that a work permit system will reduce EU migration to under 100,000 a year.

 

[oldgroaner]

You seem quite happy to quote forecasts and opinions under certain circumstances, but equally content to dismiss them when they are out of kilter with your own personal views.

The size of the population and the rate at which it is growing is a major concern. The strain that this is putting on services and resources is worrying and it is right to discuss the issue, without it being branded as nonsense.

Actually I agree on principle, just disagree with the so called facts in this report, and if you bothered to read my post, their calculations must have been done by Gove.

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[Kudoscycles]

This thread actually eptitomises the remain campaign, and its exactly why they lost and why we are in such a mess.

The Remain campaign was a disaster,it was a complex subject that they tried to communicate,but really they needed a Boris with a bus.
But therein lies the problem Boris's bus communicated a lie very well and May and Co have harnessed the accumulated people power to take Brexit forward,but that doesn't mean that the original idea was a good one.
The IPPR have just released a report that low income households will only see a 2% rise in income by 2030,2 million jobs will go in retail and 600,000 in manufacturing,mainly due to the Internet and robotics.....we can see this already happening in assembly manufacturing and self check out in supermarkets,self check in at airports.
If Brexit was a protest vote and throwing a big spear at government to be noticed its not working,Hammond has made no attempt to help the poor northern towns and seems to be concentrating on supporting the City and big business.
Leavers continually say to Remainers,Remoaners if you like,that they won and Remain lost. But what have the Leavers won? If you won the Olympics you get a medal,if you won the lottery you get cash but I cannot see anything that this government have given to the Leave vote,not even an indication of future advantages.
Maybe,when Leave wake up and realise they have been stitched up we will soon invent a new category Leavemoaners.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

You are quite right Zlatan, the majority on here are in favour of the EU. I believe that this line of thinking goes hand in hand with the electric bike, eco-warrior, tree-hugger character that such a website has the propensity to attract.

For people who purport to be favour of the EU and the union of people that membership supposedly brings, I see a great deal of intolerance coming from them. Slurs, insults and a general dismissiveness towards those with opposing views seems to be the order of the day. I quite like the principles of socialism and the aim of fairness and equality. Sadly, I am always repelled by the characters who haunt the socialist / left wing ground. I find many to be rank hypocrites who are totally unwilling to abide by the principles which they claim to hold in such high regard. This thread is littered with examples and it is sickening.

Tillson....I cannot see in myself the Leftie/Eco-warrior/Tree hugger that you refer to,but am concerned that this government is full of right wing fascists that have hijacked Brexit for their own political end game.
With Theresa May in power UKIP,English League,National Front have no voice,it is impossible to move any further right.
By a twist of Brexit fate,Theresa May has managed to harness the racist,xenophobic elements of the Labour Party.
Quite clever politically,she has harnessed the left and right wing extremes of UK politics,she also has the old core die-hard Tory vote,which is why she is so far ahead in the poles.
The outcome of Brexit will highlight where her true politics lie....some are going to be disappointed,I don't think it is going to be rich right wingers who will be unhappy.
KudosDave

 

[Danidl]

You seem quite happy to quote forecasts and opinions under certain circumstances, but equally content to dismiss them when they are out of kilter with your own personal views.

The size of the population and the rate at which it is growing is a major concern. The strain that this is putting on services and resources is worrying and it is right to discuss the issue, without it being branded as nonsense.

You seem quite happy to quote forecasts and opinions under certain circumstances, but equally content to dismiss them when they are out of kilter with your own personal views.

The size of the population and the rate at which it is growing is a major concern. The strain that this is putting on services and resources is worrying and it is right to discuss the issue, without it being branded as nonsense.

The headline is technically correct and is what I would term truth intended to deceive. The key letter being s at the end of population s .. there are some 7 EU states with populations less than 3.5million including Malta. The intention was presumably to cause the casual reader to expect 500millon and be suitable ly frightened or angered.
Whether 150k persons per year is a good or bad thing depends on resources and where you expect them to contribute . Yes they need to be planned for, but in a population of 60M it is hardly a blip.

What seems never to get a mention on this forum is that the population of Europe including the UK has remained static while in our lifetime ( most contributers are 60years+) the global population has increased by 3.5 times. How much longer can Europe hold out against this type of pressure? Particularly as there are swaths of Europe which are underpopulated.

 

[oldgroaner]

Absolutely. I believe that if another referendum were to be held, BREXIT would increase its majority vote. This would be entirely down to the disgraceful way in which the remain side have conducted themselves since June.

They have done nothing but alienate themselves by pursuing the, "you were to stupid to know what you were voting for" line. It's been a master class in how to become a loser.

So are you saying that the leave Voters DID know what they were doing, when even after all this time, no one can actually say they do know?
Perhaps you could pass on that wisdom to May and co?
Come off it tillson, it was simply a protest vote against a hated government for a very large proportion of the voters on the principle that if the Government wanted it, they, the voter's, didn't, and they had simply no idea that they would even win the day.
But one of us did.......because to anyone who cared to look closely enough the depth of feeling was obvious, not Rocket Science.
And if the Vote leave were to increase if a third Referendum was offered, it would have nothing whatever to do with the very few voices raised against leaving the EU, and everything to do with the Endless lies, rumours and propaganda coming out of the media and right wing press every single day without let up.
The ratio of pro versus anti Brexit propaganda must be over 100 to 1 in favour of Brexit and that is painfully obvious, and quite simply scandalous.

 

[oldgroaner]

You are quite right Zlatan, the majority on here are in favour of the EU. I believe that this line of thinking goes hand in hand with the electric bike, eco-warrior, tree-hugger character that such a website has the propensity to attract.

For people who purport to be favour of the EU and the union of people that membership supposedly brings, I see a great deal of intolerance coming from them. Slurs, insults and a general dismissiveness towards those with opposing views seems to be the order of the day. I quite like the principles of socialism and the aim of fairness and equality. Sadly, I am always repelled by the characters who haunt the socialist / left wing ground. I find many to be rank hypocrites who are totally unwilling to abide by the principles which they claim to hold in such high regard. This thread is littered with examples and it is sickening.

You seem easily sickened for someone who likes villains like Farage who is so low he could limbo dance under the doors in a Gents Toilet, and for a socialist have some remarkably right wing fancies.
And you are not above being intolerant yourself when it suits you.
And I would remind you that Both Tom and I have said that article 50 should have been activated long ago.
Bearing that in mind, what did you mean by this comment?
"I find many to be rank hypocrites who are totally unwilling to abide by the principles which they claim to hold in such high regard. This thread is littered with examples and it is sickening."

Let me say once again I am looking forward to Article 50 being activated, us leaving the EU and the subsequent disaster leading to a great leap of understanding in the UK Public leading to a return to the EU with a much altered and more accurate view of reality.

Do let me know if you find any of that difficult to understand.

And no, I do not take any joy in it, just accept the simple fact that forty odd years of lies about the EU cannot be undone without going through a trauma to bring the truth to light.

 

[flecc]

The author made a mistake, the EU population is of course about 731 millions.

Asking Google for the population of the EU typically gets such an answer. I've just repeated that and got 742 millions.

Both figures are wildly wrong.

The 2015 figures by 28 member countries and total of 508 millions can be seen on this link.

The EU's own population is in fact quite stable, any growth mainly due to immigration. A truly up to the minute total will probably be between 510 millions and 520 millions.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Jeremy Corbyn is referring to Theresa May as an autocrat like Henry VIII,he may have been better to compare her with Charles 1. Charles ran the country for his own ends and politically tried to neutralise parliament ,parallels there. We fought a civil war between the supporters of monarchy and parliament...in the end parliament wanted rid of him and executed him in 1649.....warning to Theresa May.
The result was the emergence of Oliver Cromwell,aka Nigel Farage!!!!!
KudosDave

 

[D8ve]

Tillson....I cannot see in myself the Leftie/Eco-warrior/Tree hugger that you refer to,but am concerned that this government is full of right wing fascists that have hijacked Brexit for their own political end game.
With Theresa May in power UKIP,English League,National Front have no voice,it is impossible to move any further right.
By a twist of Brexit fate,Theresa May has managed to harness the racist,xenophobic elements of the Labour Party.
Quite clever politically,she has harnessed the left and right wing extremes of UK politics,she also has the old core die-hard Tory vote,which is why she is so far ahead in the poles.
The outcome of Brexit will highlight where her true politics lie....some are going to be disappointed,I don't think it is going to be rich right wingers who will be unhappy.
KudosDave

Dave as a fellow Dave I'm happy to be branded as tree hugging eco warrior. The unrelenting waste of resources and hoping that science will magic up a power source that will allow the wastage to continue is a stupid bet.
Left leaning perhaps but also a realist who knows who's had off with most resources with least effort.
After all Beckam was a great footballer, the same can't be said of some media personalities. But it's close.

 

[Woosh]

The headline is technically correct and is what I would term truth intended to deceive. The key letter being s at the end of population s .. there are some 7 EU states with populations less than 3.5million including Malta. The intention was presumably to cause the casual reader to expect 500millon and be suitable ly frightened or angered.

Sorry, my mistake. I fell exactly for/where the author intended.

Asking Google for the population of the EU typically gets such an answer. I've just repeated that and got 742 millions.

Both figures are wildly wrong.

The 2015 figures by 28 member countries and total of 508 millions can be seen on this link.

The EU's own population is in fact quite stable, any growth mainly due to immigration. A truly up to the minute total will probably be between 510 millions and 520 millions.
.

Again my mistake, not google's. Google gave 743 millions for Europe as a whole, if I specify 'European Union', google did return 508 millions.

 

[flecc]

Google gave 743 millions for Europe as a whole, if I specify 'European Union', google did return 508 millions.

That's even more odd. I earlier asked population of the EU, and Google replied 742 millions., and now says 743* to the same question. But using the full name instead of the initials returns 508.

It seems Google thinks the EU is the whole of Europe!

* That's one heck of a population growth rate, a million in two hours! At that rate by the end of February the EU will have overtaken India's population.
.

 

[anotherkiwi]

That's even more odd. I earlier asked population of the EU, and Google replied 742 millions., and now says 743 to the same question. But using the full name instead of the initials returns 508.

It seems Google thinks the EU is the whole of Europe!
.

The difference between earlier and now will be adjusting for today's migrants...

Looking for the abbreviation returns:

EU

Member States of the European Union (EU) and other countries have been assigned a two-letter country code, always written in capital letters, and often used as an abbreviation in statistical analyses, tables, figures or maps.

 

[flecc]

EU

Member States of the European Union (EU) and other countries have been assigned a two-letter country code, always written in capital letters, and often used as an abbreviation in statistical analyses, tables, figures or maps.

But I didn't italicise in asking the question.

Seriously though, Google needs to sort this, their usage is very misleading and at odds with common practice. The EU is internationally understood to be the 28 member countries alone.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

You have to admire the imagination of pro Brexit papers like the Mail
"
London will remain the global capital of finance despite Brexit, leading City figure says as Remain doom-mongers are proved wrong again

• Mark Boleat, policy chair of the City of London Corporation, says he has 'no doubt' London will remain the world's leading financial hub
• Insists business uncertainty can be overcome if ministers agree interim EU deal
• Comments defy doom-laden warnings of major job losses if UK-based firms lose financial passports, which gives them access to EU financial markets

So someone offers an opinion that is qualified by requiring Mrs May to do an interim Deal with the EU , and this is supposed to prove
"Remain doom-mongers are proved wrong again"
An amazing leap of faith!

 

[oldgroaner]

I am pleased that I can announce something Favourable to say regarding Brexit, and proclaim that it will have (in the end) a happy outcome.

Once we leave the EU the Brexit Voters will get the Government they Deserve.
The Tory Government will, by incompetence, greed and over employment of lies, Propaganda,and acts of repression, so discredit itself and ruin the economy with burgeoning debt, and enrage the Public over the damage done to their lifestyle, that it will end up in oblivion where it belongs.

This will indeed bring about fundamental change in the way we are governed, and re-entry into the EU will follow shortly thereafter.

I just thought the leave side of the argument was struggling, and having a soft spot for the underdog, had to pitch in on their behalf.

Never let it be said that I didn't have something positive to say in support of Brexit!

 

[Lister]

This sort of attitude will do nothing to help the UK as a whole.

I was a remainer, we now need to forge a way ahead without petty sniping at the brexiters all the time.
The future is quite difficult to predict, otherwise I might be a rich man.

My last post here on this topic, and am sure if we can work together in harmony it may work out for the best in the long term.