Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

I thought I'd get in with a story from the morning papers before OG.

Today, The Daily Fail leads on Theresa May's £900 leather trousers.

I've suddenly become unwell. Excuse me whilst I go to the bathroom to be sick.

 

[oldgroaner]

I thought I'd get in with a story from the morning papers before OG.

Today, The Daily Fail leads on Theresa May's £900 leather trousers.

I've suddenly become unwell. Excuse me whilst I go to the bathroom to be sick.

Hells Teeth this thread has started running a night shift now! good post though tillson,
Clearly a case where the packaging far exceeded the vale if the contents, and a shame that a Dumb animal met it's fate to end up wrapped around the nether regions of an even dumber one!

 

[oldgroaner]

Ah well at least I can find something humorous to match that from the Express
"
David Davis ready to get tough if EU tries to 'punish' UK for Brexit
BREXIT minister David Davis is prepared to get tough with the EU if the bloc tries to ‘punish’ Britain for voting to leave, a leaked memo has revealed."

What is he going to do? Send a gunboat? oh...what gunboat?
This man doesn't just grin like an idiot.

 

[oldgroaner]

Even more Hilarity from the Daily Mail
Remember it's all so keen on Democracy especially where the margin is only 4%
So this is a little hard to understand
"
Remainers 'set for narrow 7-4 decision by Supreme Court judges in Article 50 case' - defying their hopes of a legal whitewash in their bid to block Brexit"
Hows that for Hypocrisy!

 

[oldtom]

Even more Hilarity from the Daily Mail
Remember it's all so keen on Democracy especially where the margin is only 4%
So this is a little hard to understand
"
Remainers 'set for narrow 7-4 decision by Supreme Court judges in Article 50 case' - defying their hopes of a legal whitewash in their bid to block Brexit"
Hows that for Hypocrisy!

Now, let me think......here we have the first eleven of the country's finest judges, not the reserve team, but the handsomely-salaried stars of the legal profession and the suggestion is that they will decide 7 to 4 in favour of the 'Remain' argument at the Supreme Court.......why that's almost two to one! - 63 and a bit %, if you like, which is 27 and a bit % more than the other side.

I'm done thinking now and all I can say is that the Daily Mail has given a new meaning to the word, 'narrow'.

Of course, it's only speculation at this time!

Tom

ps I'm reminded of another Daily Mail report of an event at this time of year:

 

[oldtom]

This seems appropriate:

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

This seems appropriate: View attachment 16730

Tom

You forgot to add under the working class character
"And shows the biggest boobs too!"

 

[homemoz]

Now that this thread has calmed down a little, thought I would write another post. Basically, I am getting really fed up with the whole Brexit fiasco. Firstly, the referendum did not provide a big enough majority to uphold 'the will of the people". On a 4% majority there was always going to be strong opposition & if the vote had been the other way round I'm sure it would be no different as OG has repeatedly pointed out. In over 35 years with the NHS I have sat through enough meetings to know that if you try and push something through without gaining a sizeable majority it is likely to be sabotaged at some point. In the past one of my roles was to work with struggling teams & I know that to reach agreement, the views of all parties have to be heard. Secondly, the referendum itself was an act of utmost stupidity. This is because you can't use a yes/no questionnaire to provide a answer to a set of complex questions & if you did it would be very foolish to act on there results without seeking further clarification.

Instead of blaming either remainers or leavers, who after all only did what they we were asked to do in voting perhaps we have to look towards the ignorance of those in power who seem to be blinded by their own ideologies. At this stage I would like the Govt to get representatives from both the remain & leave sides together in what would be a form of conflict resolution and look towards a representative way forward. In other words a co-operative approach to our problems. This would mean however, such a loss of face that is not likely to happen. It would also mean showing real strength in standing up to the extreme elements of both sides & risking anger amongst the general population who have been strung along in this way. So it's not going to happen. I am in my 60's & if I was younger, I would seriously consider emigrating to one of the Scandinavian countries. As this isn't an option, I guess it is either seeking a deserted island somewhere or having to watch whilst the fiasco plays itself out. I dread to think how much it is costing, along with taking our eye off the ball whilst the world is in turmoil (Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns comes to mind). Sorry to be so negative again but whilst the Govt remains in a state of denial, the level of conflict will only get worse.

 

[Woosh]

It has occurred to me that Theresa May would find it attractive if we did end up with WTO tariffs between the UK and EU. Assuming 10% tariff,imagine the tariff take on all the VW,BMW,Mercs and Audi even if she has to give tariff support to Nissan etc.
We are not going to stop buying German Cars,it would be a wonderful tax take on the very people who could afford to pay and pretty much hidden.
KudosDave

Two things she won't be able to dodge, the first is the exit bill, estimated at about 50 billion Euros and the second, everyone will claim that it's a bad deal.

 

[oldgroaner]

Now that this thread has calmed down a little, thought I would write another post. Basically, I am getting really fed up with the whole Brexit fiasco. Firstly, the referendum did not provide a big enough majority to uphold 'the will of the people". On a 4% majority there was always going to be strong opposition & if the vote had been the other way round I'm sure it would be no different as OG has repeatedly pointed out. In over 35 years with the NHS I have sat through enough meetings to know that if you try and push something through without gaining a sizeable majority it is likely to be sabotaged at some point. In the past one of my roles was to work with struggling teams & I know that to reach agreement, the views of all parties have to be heard. Secondly, the referendum itself was an act of utmost stupidity. This is because you can't use a yes/no questionnaire to provide a answer to a set of complex questions & if you did it would be very foolish to act on there results without seeking further clarification.

Instead of blaming either remainers or leavers, who after all only did what they we were asked to do in voting perhaps we have to look towards the ignorance of those in power who seem to be blinded by their own ideologies. At this stage I would like the Govt to get representatives from both the remain & leave sides together in what would be a form of conflict resolution and look towards a representative way forward. In other words a co-operative approach to our problems. This would mean however, such a loss of face that is not likely to happen. It would also mean showing real strength in standing up to the extreme elements of both sides & risking anger amongst the general population who have been strung along in this way. So it's not going to happen. I am in my 60's & if I was younger, I would seriously consider emigrating to one of the Scandinavian countries. As this isn't an option, I guess it is either seeking a deserted island somewhere or having to watch whilst the fiasco plays itself out. I dread to think how much it is costing, along with taking our eye off the ball whilst the world is in turmoil (Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns comes to mind). Sorry to be so negative again but whilst the Govt remains in a state of denial, the level of conflict will only get worse.

A very fair assessment and I agree wholeheartedly, and unless the Press is required to be a lot more truthful and less divisive, there is little chance of reconciliation between all parties concerned.

 

[flecc]

Now that this thread has calmed down a little, thought I would write another post. Basically, I am getting really fed up with the whole Brexit fiasco. Firstly, the referendum did not provide a big enough majority to uphold 'the will of the people". On a 4% majority there was always going to be strong opposition & if the vote had been the other way round I'm sure it would be no different as OG has repeatedly pointed out. In over 35 years with the NHS I have sat through enough meetings to know that if you try and push something through without gaining a sizeable majority it is likely to be sabotaged at some point. In the past one of my roles was to work with struggling teams & I know that to reach agreement, the views of all parties have to be heard. Secondly, the referendum itself was an act of utmost stupidity. This is because you can't use a yes/no questionnaire to provide a answer to a set of complex questions & if you did it would be very foolish to act on there results without seeking further clarification.

Instead of blaming either remainers or leavers, who after all only did what they we were asked to do in voting perhaps we have to look towards the ignorance of those in power who seem to be blinded by their own ideologies. At this stage I would like the Govt to get representatives from both the remain & leave sides together in what would be a form of conflict resolution and look towards a representative way forward. In other words a co-operative approach to our problems. This would mean however, such a loss of face that is not likely to happen. It would also mean showing real strength in standing up to the extreme elements of both sides & risking anger amongst the general population who have been strung along in this way. So it's not going to happen. I am in my 60's & if I was younger, I would seriously consider emigrating to one of the Scandinavian countries. As this isn't an option, I guess it is either seeking a deserted island somewhere or having to watch whilst the fiasco plays itself out. I dread to think how much it is costing, along with taking our eye off the ball whilst the world is in turmoil (Nero fiddling whilst Rome burns comes to mind). Sorry to be so negative again but whilst the Govt remains in a state of denial, the level of conflict will only get worse.

Excellent post Homeoz. I'm in very much the same position of being too old now to bother with leaving this country. Having lived elswhere previously and almost taken that decision then, if very much younger I definitely would now.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Independent
"
Brexit Britain turns against globalisation, blaming it for low UK wages and inequality poll reveals
Exclusive: The survey by ComRes also shows people blame modern technology for inequality"

And the irony is that when we leave the EU our only (and I mean only faintly likely to succeed )ploy will be to invest heavily in high technology to be competitive, which will inevitably increase unemployment in high value jobs, and make the the situation one where employers have the upper hand and can impose lower wages and reduced and punitive working conditions .

And even that is based on the optimistic hope that the "Investors" of this country will regard this as a better bet than putting their money into the Far East where the slaves are more passive than here.
Can anyone name a good reason why they should take that risk?

Much better to leave it where it is and enjoy being able to pick and choose your servants cheaply from the desperate remnants of the Working Class here.
They will be glad of a few crumbs.

 

[oldtom]

At this stage I would like the Govt to get representatives from both the remain & leave sides together in what would be a form of conflict resolution and look towards a representative way forward. In other words a co-operative approach to our problems. This would mean however, such a loss of face that is not likely to happen.

'homemoz', I really like your post as it expresses much of what I believe but without the rancour that I find difficult to contain.

Your closing sentence of the paragraph I selected sums up perfectly why we remain in this lengthy period of purgatory - May hasn't a clue about what to do and rather than make a wrong decision, she hopes something will come up which provides her with the means to save face and hang on to the job she craved.

As for the first sentence, well, that's not the tory way, is it? The suggestion smacks of socialism and the word 'co-operative' is anathema to tories as it harks back to a time when a bunch of northern folks managed to make a better fist of creating a more equitable society than previous attempts, mainly in Scotland, and the the rich, landowners and businessmen didn't like that at all. (My first job on leaving school was with the Co-op and their induction programme was excellent, hugely instructive and stuff like the 'Rochdale Principles' has remained with me all through my life.)

Today's tories, descendants of the rich landowners and businessmen I mentioned, see an institution like the EU in much the same way as their forefathers viewed the Co-operative movement back in the nineteenth century. Such institutions inhibit their ability to exploit markets and customers unfettered. That kind of obstruction to their freedom to do as they please, therefore, without any regard for other people, particularly the lower orders, just cannot be allowed to continue, as far as the tory party and their right-wing, UKIP, are concerned.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Excellent post Homeoz. I'm in very much the same position of being too old now to bother with leaving this country. Having lived elswhere previously and almost taken that decision then, if very much younger I definitely would now.
.

That makes two of us my friend!

 

[Kudoscycles]

Now, let me think......here we have the first eleven of the country's finest judges, not the reserve team, but the handsomely-salaried stars of the legal profession and the suggestion is that they will decide 7 to 4 in favour of the 'Remain' argument at the Supreme Court.......why that's almost two to one! - 63 and a bit %, if you like, which is 27 and a bit % more than the other side.

I'm done thinking now and all I can say is that the Daily Mail has given a new meaning to the word, 'narrow'.

Of course, it's only speculation at this time!

Tom

ps I'm reminded of another Daily Mail report of an event at this time of year:

View attachment 16729

Amusing that 52 to 48 was a strong majority but 7 to 4 is a narrow victory....someone should buy these guys a calculator.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

Homemoz
Excellent post. Couldn't agree more. Well said.

 

[Croxden]

Amusing that 52 to 48 was a strong majority but 7 to 4 is a narrow victory....someone should buy these guys a calculator.
KudosDave

And a child to work it.

 

[flecc]

Amusing that 52 to 48 was a strong majority but 7 to 4 is a narrow victory....someone should buy these guys a calculator.
KudosDave

And I for one will be very surprised if the Supreme Court arrived at 7 to 4 in this case. More likely is a unanimous decision against the executive, perhaps alleviated by some supportive comments within their findings.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

When "The May" finally signs the agreement to leave the EU the words of Aneurin Bevan that were directed at Churchill will apply to her.

"The Tories always hold the view that the state is an apparatus for the protection of the swag of the property owners... Christ drove the money changers out of the temple, but you inscribe their title deed on the alter cloth"

And that principle is the core reason and driving force for the Political Coup that the right wing of the Tory party and the Monkey on it's Back puppet the UKIP are motivated by, in promoting this crime against the people ,disguised as a "Patriotic Rising" under the name of Brexit.

It is a spider's web of deceit intended to trap the unwary.
Cunningly worked and presented, it worked as well as I expected it to, as it played on people's natural fears and hopes.
The most effective bait when you want to catch an innocent victim is a poisoned one, and Brexit is.
Remember the scene from the Wizard of Oz where the Wicked witch of the West sowed a field of poppies to catch Dorothy?
"Something sweet with poison in it!" she cackled.
Any resemblance to Teresa May is purely co-incidental etc, etc.

 

[oldgroaner]

And a child to work it.

Perhaps Gove worked it out for them, he is after all amazing at sums, remember when he was responsible for Education his aim was to make "All Schools above Average"