Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

leave campaigners are like Trump surrogates, making impossible promises, like having both access to the Single Market, bringing down immigration to the tens of thousands, tax cuts, no red tape etc, anything you want really.

They simply don't realise how fundamental the four freedoms of the EU are, these are the very pillars of the EU:

• The free movement of goods.
• The free movement of services and freedom of establishment.
• The free movement of persons (and citizenship), including free movement of workers.
• The free movement of capital.

This current radio program on the i-player brings the reality home, spelling out what a bleak future faces us in any attempts to get compromise:

Analysis
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[anotherkiwi]

Point three is already not applied in the UK, I can obtain a long term EU resident card (I have been living in the EU for almost 40 years) that allows me to live and work in any country in the EU except Denmark, Ireland and the UK.

 

[flecc]

Point three is already not applied in the UK, I can obtain a long term EU resident card (I have been living in the EU for almost 40 years) that allows me to live and work in any country in the EU except Denmark, Ireland and the UK.

That's a different matter, you weren't EU born.

It does apply to all EU born citizens since they don't have to obtain a residence card, they are here by right.
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[trex]

if you believe the last Natcen survey, although 90% want to remain in the Single Market, 70% seem to want Trump's wall here.
maybe it's time for the EU to revisit the question of welfare.
Who should pay the welfare bill? the country of birth or the country of residence?

 

[derf]

That's a different matter, you weren't EU born.

It does apply to all EU born citizens since they don't have to obtain a residence card, they are here by right.
.

"EU born" or "EU"? I have a Russian colleague with French citizenship (naturalised after ten years there), who is an EU citizen as a result, who worked freely, without any restriction in the UK, and now (naturally) in Marseilles.

 

[derf]

That's a different matter, you weren't EU born.

It does apply to all EU born citizens since they don't have to obtain a residence card, they are here by right.
.

my advice to anyone is to transcend the whole matter by making one's labour more valuable to the country than the country is to one (my colleague left uk after the brexit vote and doesn't really care, in any conceivable way, about what the current uk government thinks of anything)

 

[flecc]

Who should pay the welfare bill? the country of birth or the country of residence?

I believe the country of residence. Trying to achieve the opposite is very messy, how would one determine a cut off age? For example Londoner Bradley Wiggins was born in Belgium while his father was on diplomatic duties there. Why should Belgium pay for life when he was only there briefly as a baby?

A further complication is that his father was an Australian.

The only uncomplicated and sensible way is country of residence, a system which encourages all to have an equally healthy economy able to afford the costs of membership.
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[anotherkiwi]

That's a different matter, you weren't EU born.

It does apply to all EU born citizens since they don't have to obtain a residence card, they are here by right.
.

I could be a EU citizen if I chose to take up French nationality. I have chosen not to do so because I feel there is a confusion between nationality, the place you were born, and citizenship, the place you live and pay taxes. If there was EU citizenship on offer I would take that up because I feel that it reflects my status, a New Zealand national long term resident of the EU. My three sons are all French and my eldest is keen on taking up the double nationality. In this case I feel he is justified doing so with his parents being of different nationalities, his double nationality reflects his origins.

I know, it is a stupid intelectual exercise but one has to have principles.

 

[trex]

I believe the country of residence. Trying to achieve the opposite is very messy, how would one determine a cut off age? For example Londoner Bradley Wiggins was born in Belgium while his father was on diplomatic duties there. Why should Belgium pay for life when he was only there briefly as a baby?

A further complication is that his father was an Australian.

The only uncomplicated and sensible way is country of residence, a system which encourages all to have an equally healthy economy able to afford the costs of membership.
.

you could substitute the country of birth for the country that issues the person's passport.
Someone pointed out that in the US, a refugee gets nearly twice as much in welfare than a retiree on basic pension, hence the justification for Mr Trump's wall. There is a similar situation here regarding child benefit for example.
In order to defend the FOM, the EU will need to revisit other pull factors beside availability of well paid jobs.
Another issue which made people like Farage popular is culture assimilation. Should refugees made to pass civic exams?

 

[trex]

I know, it is a stupid intelectual exercise but one has to have principles.

I can't see anything wrong with dual or even tri nationality.
If you find you have plenty of empathy with the people and places where you live then why not?
My children are thinking of naturalisation because of brexit.
A common passport removes that important division of them and us, we and you.

 

[derf]

if you believe the last Natcen survey, although 90% want to remain in the Single Market, 70% seem to want Trump's wall here.
maybe it's time for the EU to revisit the question of welfare.
Who should pay the welfare bill? the country of birth or the country of residence?

though I don't mind at all that my tax money is used for overseas aid/welfare. much of the uk's income is from the effort of overseas workers (companies based here with activity offshore), not to mention the way globalisation makes it impossible to draw national boundaries around production. and spending on welfare/aid can make the world a more civilised, educated, safe, integrated place. all the present emphasis on national boundaries may resonate with some sectors of the electorate that struggle to have an open mind, and perceive themselves as disadvantaged. I'm not convinced they are, objectively.

 

[trex]

the Supreme Court allows Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to have their say in the upcoming appeal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38027230
I honestly can't see how Mrs May can win.
She seems to use the Court to explain why article 50 is still not called.
If the EU confirms that article 50 is reversible anytime within the 2 year negotiating period, the remainers will have a better chance to kill off brexit.

 

[derf]

the Supreme Court allows Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland to have their say in the upcoming appeal.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38027230
I honestly can't see how Mrs May can win.
She seems to use the Court to explain why article 50 is still not called.
If the EU confirms that article 50 is reversible anytime within the 2 year negotiating period, the remainers will have a better chance to kill off brexit.

one unhelpful part is that ms may is a lack of conviction politician in the Hillary mould who leaves the electorate riding a tsunami of opinion polls, sorry referendums. I was about to add that a good written constitution may have helped (say with clauses specifying that a two thirds majority in parliament is a condition for any fundamental change), but clearly that doesn't help at all when one looks at usa, many African states where things have gone fundamentally awry.

 

[oldgroaner]

Daily mail
"Tesco's boss has taken aim at suppliers including the makers of Marmite and warned them not to use the weak pound as an excuse to bump up prices.

And the Brexit readers imagine this man is on their side? you would think that even the most dim witted of them would realise what nonsense it is to imagine that he is doing little more than advertising his store taking advantage of how gullible they are.
So he will take products off the shelves if the manufacturers raise prices or reduce contents.
I wonder how long this virtuous reaction will last? for a company with Tesco's record?

 

[trex]

judging by the Marmite story, about a week?

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Express
"
'Democracy has been overruled by MOB RULE' Angry tirade by Brexit and Trump fan goes viral
A LIVID Question Time audience member has gone viral after he went on an unrelenting rant, criticising opposition to Brexit and Donald Trump’s election win."

Just three things worth mentioning, Brexit will go ahead anyway.
No conditions were stipulated for what form it should take.
Farage and the leave campaign were in favour of staying in the single market

 

[oldgroaner]

From the Mail
"Now Rupert Murdoch visits Donald Trump at Trump Towers and chats to Ivanka in the lobby as the President-elect prepares to spend the weekend at his own golf club"
What a surprise?
Not really, Birds of a Feather conspire together.

 

[trex]

http://inktank.fi/n-countries-boris-johnson-offended/

 

[Kudoscycles]

Tory MP's want May to forget about the court case and instead have a simple bill to trigger A50,May seems to ignore this.
I wonder whether these delays suit her,she is not prepared for even a simple Act and parliament and the Lords will inevitably ask for more.
I also wonder whether she is looking for an excuse to forget Brexit but to blame someone else or some event,she seems to ignore all the imminent bad economic news,as though that will never happen.
She is Alice in Wonderland and acting as such but at sometime will wake up. The current situation is phoney,reality will be in spring 2017.
When the poor ticked 'Leave' I wonder how did they think that tick was going to improve their lifestyle,even Boris's wild claims did not say that they would be better off. Yet on QT leavers constantly push for quitting EU as though this would transform their lifestyle,they seem to blame EU migrants for holding down wages,is that true?
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

Tory MP's want May to forget about the court case and instead have a simple bill to trigger A50,May seems to ignore this.
I wonder whether these delays suit her,she is not prepared for even a simple Act and parliament and the Lords will inevitably ask for more.
I also wonder whether she is looking for an excuse to forget Brexit but to blame someone else or some event,she seems to ignore all the imminent bad economic news,as though that will never happen.
She is Alice in Wonderland and acting as such but at sometime will wake up. The current situation is phoney,reality will be in spring 2017.
When the poor ticked 'Leave' I wonder how did they think that tick was going to improve their lifestyle,even Boris's wild claims did not say that they would be better off. Yet on QT leavers constantly push for quitting EU as though this would transform their lifestyle,they seem to blame EU migrants for holding down wages,is that true?
KudosDave

Do the general public largely belive immigrants hold down wages?
Of course they do, what other reason could there be for the resentment?