Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

Latest Party membership figures
According to the latest available estimates from political parties’ head offices, press releases and media estimates:

• The Labour Party has around 515,000 members, as of July 2016.
• The Conservative Party had 149,800 members as of December 2013, the latest available estimate published by CCHQ.
• The Scottish National Party has around 120,000 members, as of July 2016.
• The Liberal Democrat Party has 76,000 members, as of July 2016.
• The Green Party (England and Wales) has 55,500 members, as of July 2016.
• UKIP has around 39,000 members, as of July 2016.
• The Plaid Cymru has 8,273 members, as of July 2016.

I think that makes them 6th doesn't it?

Yes, you are correct. In terms of membership numbers / party size, UKIP does appear to be in 6th place.

My reference to being in third place wasn't worded very well and I should have stated that UKIP are the third most popular party in UK politics in terms of votes cast.

Cons 36.1%
Labs 30.4%
UKIP 12.6%
Libs 7.9%
SNP 4.7%
Others

I think from this we can take it that UKIP are significant from the warmth shown by Donald Trump towards Nigel Farage that they have a part to play in future US / UK relations.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Yes, you are correct. In terms of membership numbers / party size, UKIP does appear to be in 6th place.

My reference to being in third place wasn't worded very well and I should have stated that UKIP are the third most popular party in UK politics in terms of votes cast.

Cons 36.1%
Labs 30.4%
UKIP 12.6%
Libs 7.9%
SNP 4.7%
Others

I think from this we can take it that UKIP are significant from the warmth shown by Donald Trump towards Nigel Farage that they have a part to play in future US / UK relations.

Those figures are out of date though aren't they? Even if you look at their page. I think you'll find that across the UK as a whole they are by no mean's third in the minds of the voting population.

http://www.ukip.org/ukip_election_results

I'm sure you don't need me to run through those tables to show you why they are very much not 3rd any more.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Yes, you are correct. In terms of membership numbers / party size, UKIP does appear to be in 6th place.

My reference to being in third place wasn't worded very well and I should have stated that UKIP are the third most popular party in UK politics in terms of votes cast.

Cons 36.1%
Labs 30.4%
UKIP 12.6%
Libs 7.9%
SNP 4.7%
Others

I think from this we can take it that UKIP are significant from the warmth shown by Donald Trump towards Nigel Farage that they have a part to play in future US / UK relations.

Also if you look at this. The only other thing other than member ship that really shows how "big" a party is.

http://www.parliament.uk/mps-lords-and-offices/mps/current-state-of-the-parties/

They are joint 11th.

 

[Wicky]

"I think from this we can take it that UKIP are significant from the warmth shown by Donald Trump towards Nigel Farage that they have a part to play in future US / UK relations."

Sorry to see your hopes dashed...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/731818/Nigel-Farage-will-not-work-anglophile-Donald-Trump-US-election-2016

"the anti-EU politician revealed today he would not be working with the President-elect."

Looks like the dole queue for the disenfranchised & disempowered cast aside Trump groupie once he's no longer gainfully employed as an MEP come Brexit. Still there's Celebrity Big Brother, ...Get Me Out of Here, HIGNFY etc.

 

[tillson]

Those figures are out of date though aren't they? Even if you look at their page. I think you'll find that across the UK as a whole they are by no mean's third in the minds of the voting population.

http://www.ukip.org/ukip_election_results

I'm sure you don't need me to run through those tables to show you why they are very much not 3rd any more.

Again, you are correct because the figures I quoted are from the 2015 General Election. I wouldn't like to say whether UKIP's popularity has strengthened or subsided. My hunch is that UKIP's popularity is increasing, maintaining their third place.

The General Election is the only hard evidence which we have to go on. As shown times over, opinion polls have absolutely no use whatsoever. The only thing which is certain about an opinion poll is that it is likely to be totally inaccurate.

I think UKIP's future will be determined by the progress of BREXIT. Lack of BREXIT progress will boost UKIP.

 

[tillson]

"I think from this we can take it that UKIP are significant from the warmth shown by Donald Trump towards Nigel Farage that they have a part to play in future US / UK relations."

Sorry to see your hopes dashed...

http://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/731818/Nigel-Farage-will-not-work-anglophile-Donald-Trump-US-election-2016

"the anti-EU politician revealed today he would not be working with the President-elect."

Looks like the dole queue for the disenfranchised & disempowered cast aside Trump groupie once he's no longer gainfully employed as an MEP come Brexit. Still there's Celebrity Big Brother, ...Get Me Out of Here, HIGNFY etc.

No hopes dashed wicky. Farage has done an admirable job so far in the face of vile and unfair criticism. It's also to his credit that he has maintained a dignified and statesman like persona throughout, rising above such activity.

Farage has done no harm to UK / US relationships, unlike May & Jonson, so we should be grateful to him for his work.

 

[anotherkiwi]

I'm still optimistic about our future outside of the EU. I know that you will disagree with me and that it is unlikely that we will ever see eye to eye on the subject.

My problem is that you have always been outside the EU, just pretending to be in while all the time engaging in sabotage of the institution and its currency.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

Again, you are correct because the figures I quoted are from the 2015 General Election. I wouldn't like to say whether UKIP's popularity has strengthened or subsided. My hunch is that UKIP's popularity is increasing, maintaining their third place.

The General Election is the only hard evidence which we have to go on. As shown times over, opinion polls have absolutely no use whatsoever. The only thing which is certain about an opinion poll is that it is likely to be totally inaccurate.

I think UKIP's future will be determined by the progress of BREXIT. Lack of BREXIT progress will boost UKIP.

yes, but you're picking the one definition of size that suits your agenda. Every other definition (and the ones that are used officially) of size puts them pretty much 6th, and if you go on the number of MPs, they are 11th. So really they aren't 3rd.

By your definition Hiliary Clinton would be President because she got more votes.

 

[Croxden]

Farage has done an admirable job so far in the face of vile and unfair criticism. .

He shouldn't have been so vile and unfair towards the EU then.

 

[anotherkiwi]

So do you seriously think that there are 3 million people in the US who are both illegal immigrants and have criminal records?

In the US you can get a criminal record for a broken headlight on your car or doing 2 mph over the limit. Especially if you are black or Mexican. That also prevents the ones who are there legally from voting and it helps fill the privately run prisons.

Back in the day Great Britain used to send kids who stole bread or apples to Australia (and women of loose virtue)...

 

[tillson]

My problem is that you have always been outside the EU, just pretending to be in while all the time engaging in sabotage of the institution and its currency.

The UK is a member of the EU. I'm not sure that any sabotage has taken place.

The UK were wise not to join the Euro. I think some of the countries which are part of the Euro zone will ultimately bring about its failure.

 

[tillson]

By your definition Hiliary Clinton would be President because she got more votes.

In terms of popularity with the electorate, it does indeed appear that Hilary Clinton is in first place.

I think all that we can agree on is that there are a number of ways to gauge popularity; number of votes, number of constituencies won, number of party members etc. Some of the methods place UKIP 11th or lower, one places them 3rd. As you say, if you want to portray UKIP as insignificant you choose the method which shows them 11th or lower (as you did), or if it is you desire to show UKIP as popular, you choose the method which shows them third (as I did).

 

[tillson]

He shouldn't have been so vile and unfair towards the EU then.

Differences have flowed in both directions. I wouldn't call it vile though.

 

[anotherkiwi]

The UK is a member of the EU. I'm not sure that any sabotage has taken place.

The UK were wise not to join the Euro. I think some of the countries which are part of the Euro zone will ultimately bring about its failure.

We don't read the same newspapers obviously...

There are three countries in the south which until quite recently were run by dictators and where corruption and tax evasion are ways of life, Italy also gave the world the Cosa Nostra... Add in if you wish Ireland which is the multinational corporation tax avoidance paradise. Iceland was playing at being Luxembourg but seems to have seen the light.

Despite these basket cases the Euro has stood up quite well against the dollar and their total debt is peanuts in proportion to the GIP of the EU as a whole. For the moment it is the pound which is suffering from the brexit announcement, if the Euro was in such dire straights it should be the other way round shouldn't it?

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

In terms of popularity with the electorate, it does indeed appear that Hilary Clinton is in first place.

I think all that we can agree on is that there are a number of ways to gauge popularity; number of votes, number of constituencies won, number of party members etc. Some of the methods place UKIP 11th or lower, one places them 3rd. As you say, if you want to portray UKIP as insignificant you choose the method which shows them 11th or lower (as you did), or if it is you desire to show UKIP as popular, you choose the method which shows them third (as I did).

I wasn't saying I was trying to portray them as insignificant. I was just pointing out that if you use numbers to justify an argument you have to realise there will be other numbers that show your argument to be false.

They, or rather Farage was clearly popular in 2015. Whether that is still the case depends on a lot of things.

His very quick decision to walk away from the mess he's created might be seen to have damaged his credibility. Equally he's clearly gunning for a job outside UKIP. So he won't be relevant next time the public gets to vote.

 

[oldgroaner]

How can you estimate the number of people you don't know about??

Ask Boris Johnson to work it out?

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes, you are correct. In terms of membership numbers / party size, UKIP does appear to be in 6th place.

My reference to being in third place wasn't worded very well and I should have stated that UKIP are the third most popular party in UK politics in terms of votes cast.

Cons 36.1%
Labs 30.4%
UKIP 12.6%
Libs 7.9%
SNP 4.7%
Others

I think from this we can take it that UKIP are significant from the warmth shown by Donald Trump towards Nigel Farage that they have a part to play in future US / UK relations.

How can anyone who isn't elected as an MP do that, especially when the second rate (sorry third rate) party he was associated has How many Mp's?
Never mind the obsolete MEP's, is it 100, 50? 10? 5?
Remind us how many does it have and is Mr Toad one of them?

What happened to Brexit being a protest about unelected EU officials and Commissioners? and "Taking back Control"

Who is doing the taking back, and who is doing the control?
perhaps Rupert Murdoch? was he elected?

Brexit becomes more and more of a farce and so does this coup attempt by Farage and co.

 

[oldgroaner]

I wasn't saying I was trying to portray them as insignificant. I was just pointing out that if you use numbers to justify an argument you have to realise there will be other numbers that show your argument to be false.

They, or rather Farage was clearly popular in 2015. Whether that is still the case depends on a lot of things.

His very quick decision to walk away from the mess he's created might be seen to have damaged his credibility. Equally he's clearly gunning for a job outside UKIP. So he won't be relevant next time the public gets to vote.

You have to ask if he was relevant at the Referendum, just went along for the ride by standing in front of that Bus ( and denying afterwards any connection with the £350 Million and the NHS slgan, and the "Hordes of immigrants" poster, and on the strength of that, took the second hand honours after Boris and Gove made as quick an exit as he did.
Now he's grovelling for a job as the "EU gravy train" he scavenged off (while criticising others for doing so) is going to dry up shortly
And now he imagines himself so superior he doesn't need party politics to make him a statesman.
Big ideas, Big Mouth, Big Ego,Small mind. An Unscrupulous and Dangerous loony.

 

[flecc]

Back in the day Great Britain used to send kids who stole bread or apples to Australia.

That was the lucky ones, the rest we hung.
.

 

[flecc]

The UK is a member of the EU. I'm not sure that any sabotage has taken place.

The UK were wise not to join the Euro. I think some of the countries which are part of the Euro zone will ultimately bring about its failure.

If we and Sweden had joined the euro it would have been very much stronger and more able to shrug off difficulties.

Its because we stayed out that the currency markets maintain the attack on the euro and have been responsible for much of its weakness. Currency traders hated the euro as they would any combined currency that greatly reduced the number of currencies they could play against each other for gain.

While the euro has strong outside EU currencies like the Pound and Krona they see a chance of possibly making it fail. If we had joined that would have been impossible and they'd have given up the systematic attacks.

That is the sabotage, our refusal to cooperate in the EU venture, constantly undermining efforts to make it a success.
.