Brexit, for once some facts.

[Kudoscycles]

If you read May's replies to statements in the house,she is still saying that we can continue in the single market and also control of free movement of people,but she knows that the EU will not give her that.
Her answers to parliament today were just so much waffle...quote...

Addressing the House of Commons, Mrs May said: "I'm determined that, as we leave the EU, Britain will be the most passionate, enthusiastic and convinced advocate of free trade anywhere in the world."

Mrs May said it was not her aim, after leaving the EU, for the UK, to "replicate any existing model that any other country has with the European Union", adding: "We will developing our own British model". This would be "ambitious", she said.

Even an enthusiastic Leaver must agree that this says that May is waffling,because really she doesn't have a clue,wonderful words but completely meaningless.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Until there is some 'deal' on the table, no one can know whether Brexit is a good idea or not.

current market sentiments are precisely due to that uncertainty, not because the terms of any deal are known.

Do you honestly think that May has some wonderful deal up her sleeve,that is going to satisfy the Scots,N.I,Wales,Gibraltar,the banks,UK businesses,the EU,the Walloons and the Leavers.
From my viewpoint at the moment Brexit is a disaster,perhaps when massive redundancies start occuring then we will all realise that.
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

Point is we have had the vote and made the choice. Now it is in everyones interest's that it is done in a sensible way including the EU who seem to be acting like spoilt children. They are supposed to be friends and allies. Who needs enemies???

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be suggesting that we should take the momentous decision to leave the EU, based on a poll, rather than a decision taken by parliament after the normal debate and vote. Is that what you think should happen?

Also, could you tell me why you think leaving the EU is a good thing for the British people?

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Even an enthusiastic Leaver must agree that this says that May is waffling,because really she doesn't have a clue,wonderful words but completely meaningless.
KudosDave

Whether she is waffling or not Dave, somehow I don't think she will remain as leader of the tory party for very long. Thatcher was eventually stabbed in the back and May will probably be removed as a result of a bloodless coup....or maybe even a bloody one!

Tom

 

[Fingers]

Do you honestly think that May has some wonderful deal up her sleeve,that is going to satisfy the Scots,N.I,Wales,Gibraltar,the banks,UK businesses,the EU,the Walloons and the Leavers.
From my viewpoint at the moment Brexit is a disaster,perhaps when massive redundancies start occuring then we will all realise that.
KudosDave

So negative. Every one of your posts just drips naked fear. We haven't even left the EU yet. At least wait and see what happens.

It's like you think the EU is the bestest thing in the world. It's not. It's old fashioned and belongs in a bygone era. The Dutch, Italy and even Spain would leave tomorrow. Ireland did vote out but weren't allowed and look how they paid. And still are.

Germany is in the black to almost the same amount EVERY other Euro country combined is in the red. Coincidence? The EU have printed 1.3trillion. That's trillion bits of paper and called it money this year alone and it hasn't touched the sides. Our inflation will be a breeze coming to the quantative easing. Ours is in the post but don't blame Brexit for that.

I bet if you get a puncture on your bike you'd blame Brexit. Have a bit of gumption, back your country and let's make it work. You seem to want your misery fantasies to come true so you can say 'told you so'

 

[lozw]

Do you honestly think that May has some wonderful deal up her sleeve,that is going to satisfy the Scots,N.I,Wales,Gibraltar,the banks,UK businesses,the EU,the Walloons and the Leavers.

Until we know what the deal is, we don't know what anyone has up their sleeve.

When we do, then people can make an informed decision, rather than endlessly speculate.

 

[derf]

Until we know what the deal is, we don't know what anyone has up their sleeve.

When we do, then people can make an informed decision, rather than endlessly speculate.

unfortunately this isn't a poker game. it's an economic relationship between neighbours based on economic fundamentals. the uk's economy is considerably based on services provided to the eu and international investment into the uk based on that trading reality. brexit ends all of that.

 

[lozw]

unfortunately this isn't a poker game. it's an economic relationship between neighbours based on economic fundamentals. the uk's economy is considerably based on services provided to the eu and international investment into the uk based on that trading reality. brexit ends all of that.

yes, but until a deal is on offer - negotiations of which haven't even started (in public at least) - the outcome is unknown.

Both the UK and EU are blustering at the moment - no one yet knows what sort of deal can be reached. Right now its all just posturing by career politicians (who are well know to change positions at the flick of a switch).

At the end of the day, no matter what they say now, all sides will want an acceptable solution. And trade and economy will likely trump any other aces either side thinks they are holding. A failure to agree that, is a failure for all parties. Everyone loses. I don't think the EU want to lose any more than the UK does.

So I will wait until we know what is on offer.

 

[gray198]

Correct me if I'm wrong but you seem to be suggesting that we should take the momentous decision to leave the EU, based on a poll, rather than a decision taken by parliament after the normal debate and vote. Is that what you think should happen?

Also, could you tell me why you think leaving the EU is a good thing for the British people?

Tom

Why do you think us being controlled by unelected leaders is good for us

 

[flecc]

Why do you think us being controlled by unelected leaders is good for us

It could hardly be worse than being controlled by the elected leaders of recent years!
.

 

[derf]

yes, but until a deal is on offer - negotiations of which haven't even started (in public at least) - the outcome is unknown.

Both the UK and EU are blustering at the moment - no one yet knows what sort of deal can be reached. Right now its all just posturing by career politicians (who are well know to change positions at the flick of a switch).

At the end of the day, no matter what they say now, all sides will want an acceptable solution. And trade and economy will likely trump any other aces either side thinks they are holding. A failure to agree that, is a failure for all parties. Everyone loses. I don't think the EU want to lose any more than the UK does.

So I will wait until we know what is on offer.

Indeed,did you see the canadian forein minister wipe away tears on euronews after the deal fell through? Im saving a cheap bottle of champagne for when boris does whatever his version is of that in five years or so

 

[flecc]

Germany is in the black to almost the same amount EVERY other Euro country combined is in the red. Coincidence?

This is simply conspiracy theory, they are successful because they've worked for it. Here's a comparison:

In the 1960s and '70s the motor industries of both Britain and Germany were in trouble, both suffering a loss of brands. The failure of Borgward in th 1960s and continuing decline of NSU and DKW alarmed the German government enough to intervene with support and direction for the new Audi project.

We in Britain were suffering similarly, brands disappearing and those remaining increasingly being just badge engineering and not doing well. So our governments intervened also.

From 1971 both countries were operating under exactly the same common market and later EU conditions, a level playing field. Britain failed with almost our entire motor industry eventually disappearing, Germany succeeded with an industry which succeeded spectacularly.

How much the blame for our failure is apportioned between our politicians, business leaders and public I leave to you, but there was no unfairness in the market. We and Germany operated and still operate under identical European conditions.
.

 

[Fingers]

This is simply conspiracy theory, they are successful because they've worked for it. Here's a comparison:

In the 1960s and '70s the motor industries of both Britain and Germany were in trouble, both suffering a loss of brands. The failure of Borgward in th 1960s and continuing decline of NSU and DKW alarmed the German government enough to intervene with support and direction for the new Audi project.

We in Britain were suffering similarly, brands disappearing and those remaining increasingly being just badge engineering and not doing well. So our governments intervened also.

From 1971 both countries were operating under exactly the same common market and later EU conditions, a level playing field. Britain failed with almost our entire motor industry eventually disappearing, Germany succeeded with an industry which succeeded spectacularly.

How much the blame for our failure is apportioned between our politicians, business leaders and public I leave to you, but there was no unfairness in the market. We and Germany operated and still operate under identical European conditions.
.

No denying they have a huge manufacturing base but it's also the case when the EU bails out countries such as Spain, Greece, Portugal, Ireland etc what it really means is Germany lending the money at a high interest rate. The whole of Europe is in hock to Germany.

 

[flecc]

No denying they have a huge manufacturing base but it's also the case when the EU bails out countries such as Spain, Greece, Portugal, Ireland etc what it really means is Germany lending the money at a high interest rate. The whole of Europe is in hock to Germany.

True, but entirely their own faults, they've all been operating under the same rules.

One only has to look at the insane ways the Greeks have been running their country for decades for a perfect example, in their case, running spelt ruining.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

So negative. Every one of your posts just drips naked fear. We haven't even left the EU yet. At least wait and see what happens.

It's like you think the EU is the bestest thing in the world. It's not. It's old fashioned and belongs in a bygone era. The Dutch, Italy and even Spain would leave tomorrow. Ireland did vote out but weren't allowed and look how they paid. And still are.

Germany is in the black to almost the same amount EVERY other Euro country combined is in the red. Coincidence? The EU have printed 1.3trillion. That's trillion bits of paper and called it money this year alone and it hasn't touched the sides. Our inflation will be a breeze coming to the quantative easing. Ours is in the post but don't blame Brexit for that.

I bet if you get a puncture on your bike you'd blame Brexit. Have a bit of gumption, back your country and let's make it work. You seem to want your misery fantasies to come true so you can say 'told you so'

I have been in business for 44 years,through recessions and fuel crisis (remember the 70's) . I am at the coalface of business,I import from 130 companies in Asia and sell to every EU country,so I will see the downside perhaps 6 months ahead of many others.
What is happening at the moment is the weakness of the pound v the Euro and weakness of the pound v the dollar,then we are very cheap to Europeans buying our product so we are export busy. But the UK is a trading country we buy product,lots from Asia,maybe add value,then sell to Europe,once the currency hedging is finished the 20% increase in cost will find its way through the system and trading will reduce.
If I am honest all I am concerned about is the economy,if Theresa May develops an EU deal that allows us access to the single market and she comes out and says that we will not leave the single market,not leave the customs union and avoid tariffs between the UK and EU,then the markets will return to normal......but she won't make up her mind and in fact seems to prioritise immigration control at the expense of our trade.
You say ' wait and see what happens',but for me the damage is already bad and looks like getting worse.,as Nichola Sturgeon said today Theresa May seems prepared to push us over a cliff.
The direction we seem to be heading is to become an inward looking economy,I don't see anything from May that would replace the business we are clearly prepared to lose from Europe from the rest of the world.
My business will survive because the smaller ones in the UK will go bust,those that haven't hedged or hold reserve stocks cannot risk purchasing at these current currency levels,but it all seems so unecessary.
The EU has done some good work harmonising standards so that we can all trade with each other under one standard,why do we want to retrench back to UK only standards ( see CE mark v Kite mark)
The meet today between May and the devolved nations is typical of the lack of confidence we have of the negotiating skills of the U.K.,it could break up the union and restart the N.I./Ireland problems,surely nobody wants that?
KudosDave

 

[trex]

No denying they have a huge manufacturing base but it's also the case when the EU bails out countries such as Spain, Greece, Portugal, Ireland etc what it really means is Germany lending the money at a high interest rate. The whole of Europe is in hock to Germany.

the ECB is not Germany. The ECB prints money to buy bonds, effectively mutualising bank and sovereign debts. That's fiscal union for you and me.
The Eurozone project is a rather boring subject but if you want to talk about that...

 

[Croxden]

I will never change the mind of a remoaner but for me in the end the decision was simple. Bear in mind I was a floating voter till I could find some serious info not the ******* coming from the clowns on either side.

Ultimately it came down to the point that we will leave at some point in the future so why not do it now suffer the pain then reap the benefits. I'm pretty sure most people don't want to join the Euro? This means that we will be made to sit out more and more meetings in Brussels weakening our position year on year. The EU is not what was sold to us even back in '73. It's not a trading bloc. It's a Federation with the ultimate goal to make make sovereign governments little more than local councils. It's always been the plan and they make no secret of it. By 2024 Brussels will set each Euro country's budget. So Dublin, Rome etc will get a fixed amount decided by an unelected jury and toldto get on with it. Europe is in deep trouble. Italy is about to go the same as Greece, its banks are finished the EU is giving it emergency loans and they will stop soon They had done twice before but realise the need to look strong in the face of Brexit. Look at the mess of CETA. A trading deal with a friendly open Canadian government scuppered by mere province in Brussels. You want to be part of this decrepit old fashioned bureaucracy?

It's a Germany Franco pact. I don't want to be in their federation thanks even if it hurts for a few years. My grandparents made heavier sacrifices for this country the last time someone else wished to control us, so being a few quid down is not really much to ask for.

I should point out I love Europe and the people. I just don't want to be part of an EU Federation.

Why do you presume most don't want to join the euro? Is it the same thought that everyone has a mobile phone?
If you repeat the lie often enough people will start to believe it.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Until we know what the deal is, we don't know what anyone has up their sleeve.

When we do, then people can make an informed decision, rather than endlessly speculate.

The markets have already made up their mind that May is not capable of putting a good deal between the UK and the EU. I have to say that I agree with them.
We don't have the time to wait,don't forget that we hadn't really exited the banking crisis and our economy was fragile before the vote.
But if the British people are prepared to accept a considerable hit to their lifestyle in return for immigration control then we all will have to accept that.
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

Why do you think us being controlled by unelected leaders is good for us

I asked you two questions which you have not answered as indeed you needn't.

You, by way of reply, ask me a question the answer to which is well known to anyone who understands how the EU is structured.

Nonetheless, I will answer your question:

I am, like everyone else in the UK, neither controlled nor governed by any unelected leader anywhere. In the absence of any definitive element to your question, I shall presume you are referring to the European Commission which consists of 25 members proposed by and appointed by the governments of the member states. Those appointed are in post for 5 years once ratified by the European Parliament.

Please tell me if that is not the body of people to which you refer.

If those are the people to whom you refer, they are not responsible for creating laws or indeed voting on issues which impact on the 28 member states. That is not their role.

Moreover, if those should be the people to whom you refer, you might wish to note their number and compare that to the House of Lords here in the UK where there are over 800 members at any given time, none of whom has been elected yet those people differ from the European Commissioners in that they interfere from time to time in the passage of government bills, occasionally blocking legislation.

I hope that answers your question 'gray198'.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

I will never change the mind of a remoaner but for me in the end the decision was simple. Bear in mind I was a floating voter till I could find some serious info not the ******* coming from the clowns on either side.

Ultimately it came down to the point that we will leave at some point in the future so why not do it now suffer the pain then reap the benefits. I'm pretty sure most people don't want to join the Euro? This means that we will be made to sit out more and more meetings in Brussels weakening our position year on year. The EU is not what was sold to us even back in '73. It's not a trading bloc. It's a Federation with the ultimate goal to make make sovereign governments little more than local councils. It's always been the plan and they make no secret of it. By 2024 Brussels will set each Euro country's budget. So Dublin, Rome etc will get a fixed amount decided by an unelected jury and toldto get on with it. Europe is in deep trouble. Italy is about to go the same as Greece, its banks are finished the EU is giving it emergency loans and they will stop soon They had done twice before but realise the need to look strong in the face of Brexit. Look at the mess of CETA. A trading deal with a friendly open Canadian government scuppered by mere province in Brussels. You want to be part of this decrepit old fashioned bureaucracy?

It's a Germany Franco pact. I don't want to be in their federation thanks even if it hurts for a few years. My grandparents made heavier sacrifices for this country the last time someone else wished to control us, so being a few quid down is not really much to ask for.

I should point out I love Europe and the people. I just don't want to be part of an EU Federation.

Nothing new there, was it form the Daily Mail or the Express?
And therein lies the difference, as the purpose of the EU as Churchill pointed out was to "Create a sort of United States of Europe, our only real guarantee of putting an end to wars"
Your reasons quite frankly are simply petty,based on nothing more than temporary monetary advantage, and ignoring the simple historical fact that the future of the human race has to be in forming larger political groups, not falling backwards into petty little nations.
All of the trivial arguments you raised can be sorted out in time,and when they inevitably are, Europe will be as powerful as the United States, with it's own Armed Forces too, and we will still be sitting in this little offshore backwater.
And all because we hadn't the guts to set to and change the EU through engaging fully with the European Parliament as a genuine member rather than a bunch of troublemakers.
Europe will become a United States and thanks to what basically is simply unwillingness to face reality, we have missed the chance to be part of it.
Your Grandparents and my parents didn't make those sacrifices to prevent the formation of a European Federation, and if you believe it has dominated us you are not merely mistaken but in for a big shock when the reality of Tory policies after Brexit makes being in the EU seem like paradise lost.
The only policies that have benefited the public for the last 40 odd years have all originated inside the EU and been Grudgingly agreed to (Note NOT imposed) by our Government.
We failed miserably before entering the EU and it took no less than three attempts to get in, and now the media have conned you into placing all power into the hands of the very people who will exploit you.
I like this bit
"You want to be part of this decrepit old fashioned bureaucracy?"
Hell no, I want to be part of the EU, you are welcome to the Goon Show known as the British Government. proven losers and you trust them?
Smart move. You are going to get the Government you deserve, but in doing so you have condemned the rest of the population to be part of this folly.