Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

In the Daily Mail
"
Brexit Britain could become home to giant global firms which fear huge EU tax demands after Apple ruling

• Downing Street says tech giant is 'welcome' in Britain after Irish row
• EU wants Apple to repay £11bn in tax even though Ireland doesn't want it
• Experts says a UK free from Brussels could do its own special tax deals ,

Do they really think that will go down well with the people who voted for Brexit and wanted to "Take back Control"?

So the rich are openly laying out their stall to rip off the public?
Who will have to pay the Tax these companies should have?
Who will suffer lack of investment in that income into public services like the NHS?
Us of course the long suffering public.
The EU is trying to protect us from practices of that sort, and the Government applauds them and says come here, we'll rip off our public to make you more profitable?
And we managed to vote to leave the protection of the EU
Smart Move!
Ireland doesn't want it, eh? and which part of Ireland would that be? the rich or the poor?
Or the people who negotiated the deal more like.

Apple is threatening "Reprisals against the EU"
What kind of a business threatens it's customers?
An Embargo on their products till they pay up should be the right reaction and a stiff fine.

 

[flecc]

With hindsight, it's glaringly obvious that a yes/no question is a stupid way to vote.

Maybe a way forward now is to have a multiple choice referendum on what sort of Brexit we want;

Norway style close to the EU.

Swiss style, more detached but still dependent.

Fully detached but seeking trade agreements with the EU as well as others.

Independent trading on WTA rules.

And of course we could sneak in:

Remain in the EU.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

Maybe a way forward now is to have a multiple choice referendum on what sort of Brexit we want;

Norway style close to the EU.

Swiss style, more detached but still dependent.

Fully detached but seeking trade agreements with the EU as well as others.

Independent trading on WTA rules.

And of course we could sneak in:

Remain in the EU.
.

I prefer that the second EU referendum was as it says on the Bill that authorised it, of an Advisory only nature

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Referendum_Act_2015

"The act makes no provision for the result to be legally binding on the government or on any future government due to the principle of parliamentary sovereignty.[16] The result of the referendum is to be a single majority vote of all four constituent countries of the United Kingdom and Gibraltar with no super majorities, double majorities or any minimum turnout threshold required for the vote to pass which will be declared by Chief Counting Officer (CCO) Jenny Watson at Manchester Town Hall on Friday 24 June 2016. The act does not specify any specific consequences that would follow the result of the referendum. In the event of a "Leave" vote, the government would decide under what circumstances to invoke Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty to begin a two-year process of negotiations for Britain to leave the EU.[17]European Union law would remain enforceable in the United Kingdom unless the European Communities Act 1972 were repealed.[6]

With that in mind, perhaps this is the plan Boris and co will come up with?

The offer to activate Brexit was made by an idiot, and he failed to carry it out as promised the following Monday and said "Why should I do the hard stuff?"
We have found out he was right about that so we aren't doing it either.
Sorry for any disappointment etc, etc...

 

[Kudoscycles]

I think a second referendum would be a bad idea,what question would you ask?
Going to parliament to see if leaving the EU is a good idea,no whips,a free vote. Parliament is after all an elected chamber.
KudosDave

 

[anotherkiwi]

I was doing a contract for a multi-national company the first year that it made more money from financial "engineering" than from selling real products. You can imagine the atmosphere in the offices (other than accounting) at that time, everyone was in fear for their job.

Apple could buy Greece with the cash they have on hand (over 200 billion dollars for those who don't follow these things). They are complaining about paying a 5% corporate tax. When I had a company my tax bracket was 35%. Isn't there something obscene there? Their reasoning: we employ 6,000 people in Ireland why should we pay corporate tax? Well then all the other companies who employ people in Ireland shouldn't be paying tax either then if you follow that logic. Size doesn't matter in fiscal law, in theory everyone is equal...

And to be complete Apple France doesn't pay much tax because it is (in theory) just a branch of Apple Europe, HQ in Cork Ireland. Back in the day I was selling Macintosh computers Apple France was the biggest market outside of the USA for Apple products. That was before the iPhone when they only made and sold PCs.

 

[oldgroaner]

An interesting article in the Guardian this morning
"
Divisions emerge as Whitehall draws up Brexit scenarios"
And a paragraph with information that is too little, too late!

A briefing note(pdf) from the House of Commons library highlights the huge number of decisions the British government will have to take about its future relationship with the EU.
The pdf makes interesting reading.
Mind you even releasing it before the Referendum would most likely have failed to reach many voters who wouldn't have been as they would say "naffed" to read it and understand.

 

[derf]

I was doing a contract for a multi-national company the first year that it made more money from financial "engineering" than from selling real products. You can imagine the atmosphere in the offices (other than accounting) at that time, everyone was in fear for their job.

Apple could buy Greece with the cash they have on hand (over 200 billion dollars for those who don't follow these things). They are complaining about paying a 5% corporate tax. When I had a company my tax bracket was 35%. Isn't there something obscene there? Their reasoning: we employ 6,000 people in Ireland why should we pay corporate tax? Well then all the other companies who employ people in Ireland shouldn't be paying tax either then if you follow that logic. Size doesn't matter in fiscal law, in theory everyone is equal...

And to be complete Apple France doesn't pay much tax because it is (in theory) just a branch of Apple Europe, HQ in Cork Ireland. Back in the day I was selling Macintosh computers Apple France was the biggest market outside of the USA for Apple products. That was before the iPhone when they only made and sold PCs.

not so much something obscene as hugely blatantly obscene IMHO. In the Irish health service there's been a steady increase in SUI's (serious and untoward incidents, suicides, self harm) since the 08 crisis with the struggle to fund health care. Apples tax contribution could change all that. But blatantly shareholders and the company are allowed to cream of dividends and blackmail countries into offering ever lower corporation tax instead of paying its due and giving back to society. It doesn't help to say it, but as far as I'm concerned its in principle no different from buying blood diamonds from Africa.

 

[trex]

A briefing note(pdf)

hard read.
still, this document should have been compiled before announcing the referendum.

 

[oldgroaner]

hard read.
still, this document should have been compiled before announcing the referendum.

But as I observed, it would not have affected the "Thrilling Mong" would it?
"PROJECT FEAR!" they would have cried.
And I seriously doubt it would have deterred Cameron from making the mistake of offering the Referendum anyway.
His own arrogance and fear of UKIP made it inevitable.
There seems to have been an inescapable illogic around the whole debacle.
After all, 40 years worth of anti EU lies are bound to make an impression, and did.

 

[trex]

during the campaign, the bbc staff had to concede a lot of wiggle room to the brexiters when reporting their spiel because there was not much credible independent factual research to cite. Take fisheries for example, Gove was loud about this, after brexit, the UK may control a bigger EEZ area, have bigger fleet but can't take out more fish and UK vessels may even be restricted how much and where they can land their catch in other EU countries.

 

[oldgroaner]

I am somewhat surprised that the Government as a time like this is willing to admit it will "cut a tax deal" with foreign companies to get them to come here.
Even allowing for the general level of interest voters take in how Tax is administered, this strikes me as a very arrogant position to take when the voters regard the phrase "Taking Back control" meaning power to the voter, not to the Government of the day to rip them off, and fail to levy taxes that will support the NHS and other public services.

Not clever at all on the part of the Government, to "rub the public's nose in it!"

 

[anotherkiwi]

All companies should write to their tax inspector: " Apple doesn't pay corporate tax on profit then why should we?"

That might get some notice...

 

[flecc]

It really doesn't matter if companies pay corporation tax or not,

That fact is the shareholders dont pay it, and a company doesn't pay since their income is only what their customers pay for their products or services.

Therefore that corporation tax is part of what their customers pay them, in other words, we the consumers pay the corporation tax. If a company has to pay more, they can only add it to their prices, there's nowhere else they can magic it from.

A government needs X amount of money to balance the books. They can get it from corporation tax which, as I've described, we pay anyway. Or they can tax it from us direct.

Either way, we pay.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

It really doesn't matter if companies pay corporation tax or not,

That fact is the shareholders dont pay it, and a company doesn't pay since their income is only what their customers pay for their products or services.

Therefore that corporation tax is part of what their customers pay them, in other words, we the consumers pay the corporation tax. If a company has to pay more, they can only add it to their prices, there's nowhere else they can magic it from.

A government needs X amount of money to balance the books. They can get it from corporation tax which, as I've described, we pay anyway. Or they can tax it from us direct.

Either way, we pay.
.

The problem comes when the products are sold abroad, and company's pocket
The unpaid tax, which rather contradicts that argument, doesn't it?
Then we lose out![emoji1]

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[trex]

It really doesn't matter if companies pay corporation tax or not,
.

I think it does. Combined with offshoring, it enables billionaires like Branson to accumulate wealth much more quickly than otherwise and it's unfair to other American companies.
Corporation tax could be considered as an advanced tax but is a tax nevertheless.

 

[derf]

It really doesn't matter if companies pay corporation tax or not,

That fact is the shareholders dont pay it, and a company doesn't pay since their income is only what their customers pay for their products or services.

Therefore that corporation tax is part of what their customers pay them, in other words, we the consumers pay the corporation tax. If a company has to pay more, they can only add it to their prices, there's nowhere else they can magic it from.

A government needs X amount of money to balance the books. They can get it from corporation tax which, as I've described, we pay anyway. Or they can tax it from us direct.

Either way, we pay.
.

that's a bit like Philip green saying he didnt contribute to the company pension fund to protect custoimers from price rises. I think not, i think he prioritised his greed over the needs of thousands of low paid workers and pensioners - and i think apple prioritises the needs of millionaire/billionaire shareholdersaover the needs and rights and communities of its employees. Like anyone else i can appreciate that multinationals do this because they are new labour/tory donors and through bribes and pucrative positions own the elected represenattive making the decisions, but it doesnt make it ethical.

 

[shemozzle999]

The Western world is only surviving on increasing the level of debt through increased borrowing.

At some time in the future there will come a time when the piper will need paying.

China and Russia have exploited their own people by making them work for a living to generate real wealth so they can support their population themselves without outside influences.

Which system would you want to live under?

 

[derf]

The Western world is only surviving on increasing the level of debt through increased borrowing.

At some time in the future there will come a time when the piper will need paying.

China and Russia have exploited their own people by making them work for a living to generate real wealth so they can support their population themselves without outside influences.

Which system would you want to live under?

i half agree. if you were a gordon brown presiding over an electorate with insatiableneeds for gratification (big fat german cars, life on cruise ships, hair implantations, that sort of thing) persistent and ever increasing economic growth is a condition for happiness an dstaying in power. So, sure, you'd create a property bubble through manipulating interest rates knwing it will send evryone deep into the red, but gladden their narcissistic, unattractive, bourgeoise little hearts.
However, research shows teh happiest peopel live in scandinavia where they follow a different model - a much more minimalist life, not o much based on consumpotion and debt (i think it a better way)

 

[shemozzle999]

30 million tax payers - 1.6 trillion in debt - no significant increase in the number of eligible tax payers in the last 8 years. Where are all these new contributing incoming EU workers?

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/523707/Table_2.1.pdf

 

[trex]

the structural deficit left by the financial crisis of 2008 was about 10%-12%. Without the EU migrants, all our big four banks would have gone belly up, our government would have to be bailed out by the IMF.
Now deficit is down to EU average. All thanks to the 2-3 millions or so of immigrant workers.
The truth is with a social budget forever increasing and a relatively low productivity, we can't sustain our living standard without about 200,000 - 300,000 immigrants a year.