Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

so, when a leave voter is asked to envisage a brexit future farage and le pen take centre stage in that. This isn't a reflection on you tilson, ive experienced this in most of my conversations with others who voted leave. At best, IMHO, it is by way of saying anti-immigration was at the heart of the leave vote. At worst racism (to me le pen and farage are both racists, considering say farage's policy to prevent immigrants who have HIV from entering UK, of a very unattractive sort).
I don't think this aspect of the leave vote can change - in my experience people who have this kind of philosophical stance in life (xenophobic, racist), don't change. In America in the 1960's the government integrated schools. they found that either a complete absence off, or enforced contact between children from different ethic backgrounds increased racism - only voluntary contact reduced it. this doesn't happen to those who avoid contact at all cost (as with brexit).
But a brexit based on anti immigration doesn't have an economic plan - and this is becoming increasingly obvious to everyone as the pound plummets. I think this little nightmare will only end when real prices rise, dramatically, and it begins to bite those who voted leave.

I think you are over complicating it.

Prior to the last general election, over 50% of the country wanted an EU referendum. The perception was that a large proportion of those people were Tory voters. If the Torys wanted to stay in power, they needed to offer their voters the referendum that they wanted. If they didn't those voters would have supported UKIP and let Labour in. It's that simple, nothing to do with race or HIV.

 

[oldgroaner]

The choice was simple for Cameron. He could have decided not to promise a referendum and in so doing he would have lost the general election to Labour and the Small Scottish Woman. UKIP would have taken too many votes away from the Tory party.

If Cameron wanted to win the last general election, he had no choice but to offer the referendum because of the Farage / UKIP affect, so the referendum was "forced." France, Germany, Italy and Holland will face a similar situation in future.

The dissatisfaction of EU citizens will intensify as the migrant crisis continues to deepen and the inevitable economic catastrophe approaches for Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. Both of these factors are going to hoover up unthinkable amounts of cash in terms of bailouts and handouts. Stop pretending that it's only the UK who face difficult times ahead. Us being shackled to this mess posses as bigger threat as anything else. We could be in the best place to stand by and watch the fireworks.

And do you really think we will reduce immigration, or deal with the illegals who are already here?
There is neither the means nor the will to do so, their numbers and whereabouts are also almost impossible to determine.
And we are completely unable to effectively police our borders as we lack a big enough navy or coastguard to do the job

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

 

[tillson]

And do you really think we will reduce immigration, or deal with the illegals who are already here?

I don't know.

There is neither the means nor the will to do so.

I agree, the will is lacking at this time, but that could change. Where there is a will there is a way, so the means will be found if that becomes necessary.

 

[oldgroaner]

I don't know.



I agree, the will is lacking at this time, but that could change. Where there is a will there is a way, so the means will be found if that becomes necessary.

The problem is cost of course, and that isn't helped by the fact the government regards them as beneficial to the economy.
They seem to prefer to leave them alone

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[flecc]

I'm no legal expert, so I don't claim to know about this... but the manifesto is a series of aims is it not? They can't "promise" anything can they?

They can't possibly keep the aims of the the manifesto as legally binding can they?

No there's nothing binding on the elected government or the House of Commons on any manifesto issue.

But if a manifesto issue is approved by the House of Commons it can be enforced on the Lords, if necessary by the triple presentation.

The principle is that the people vote a government in on their manifesto. Therefore the Lords cannot block an approved manifesto issue, since that would be directly against the will of the people.
.

 

[derf]

I think you are over complicating it.

Prior to the last general election, over 50% of the country wanted an EU referendum. The perception was that a large proportion of those people were Tory voters. If the Torys wanted to stay in power, they needed to offer their voters the referendum that they wanted. If they didn't those voters would have supported UKIP and let Labour in. It's that simple, nothing to do with race or HIV.

Yes,cameron sacrificed the economy,union and welfare of uk citizens for tory unity. Great,very responsible. Aside from that my post wasnt about the objective process leading to the referendum (of which that is one account), iwas about what occurred to you as a leave voter as you envisaged brexit:farage and le pen. And i think you are representative of the majority of leave voters in that it becomes about a vision that has a lot to do with immigration and little with any else

 

[trex]

I suspect at the heart of this debate is how you view what is termed political correctness.
If it's one of your guiding principles then it's difficult to vote to leave the EU.

 

[tillson]

Yes,cameron sacrificed the economy,union and welfare of uk citizens for tory unity. Great,very responsible.

Did he though? Some think so, others think not. Nobody, you included, know that this will happen. You don not know for sure that the economy of the UK is finished and you do not know if there will be a Scottish independence vote, or what the result will be if there is one.

Aside from that my post wasnt about the objective process leading to the referendum (of which that is one account), iwas about what occurred to you as a leave voter as you envisaged brexit:farage and le pen. And i think you are representative of the majority of leave voters in that it becomes about a vision that has a lot to do with immigration and little with any else

I'm not entirely sure what you are saying here. I think you are asking what my motives were for voting leave?

I think the EU has a massive economic storm brewing the likes of which we have never been witnessed before. This is in the form of the basket case economies of Greece, Italy, Portugal and Spain sinking and dragging down all of those who are shackled (EU states). Germany has already given Greece some money so that they can repay the interest on the money that they already owe. I can't see the German electorate smiling when they come back for even more cheese with Italy, Portugal and Spain forming an orderly queue behind them. I think we are better off detached from this mess, because in or out of the Euro, continued EU membership would mean that we would bear some of the financial burden one way or the other, as we did during the last Greek bail-out.

The biblical proportion migrant crisis within the EU is a huge problem and will turn into a biblical disaster. The EU's response seems to be one of, if we don't look it won't exist. I think this is potentially one of the most destabilising threats to Europe in the past 80 years. Couple this to the EU economic outlook and again, I think we are better off out.

I don't think In or Out has the answer to all of our problems. It's a case of inevitable pain is on the way, which option offers the least amount of pain and my view is OUT is best.

 

[tillson]

I suspect at the heart of this debate is how you view what is termed political correctness.
If it's one of your guiding principles then it's difficult to vote to leave the EU.

Yes, political correctness, that old stick with which to beat the voices of reason!

Good old political correctness, the illness which paralysed those charged with protecting children from sickening abuse by Asian men in South Yorkshire.

I find it interesting that those worst affected by this mental disorder which we term, political correctness, are usually what you would term white UK residents. They seem to go off on a hallucinatory journey imagining what may or may not offend an imaginary person from an ethnic background who, of course, they have never. The most severe cases of political correctness can see those stricken with it actually become offended by proxy, setting them off on a mission to invent rules regarding what can and can't say during everyday conversation. A blackboard becomes a chalk board in case an imaginary black person becomes offended by the first three letters of the word. Coffee must be with either milk or without milk, never black coffee, but white coffee is OK.

I don't know, but I suspect that most from visibly ethnic backgrounds don't give a toss and think political correctness is a looney condition best treated with electric shock therapy.

 

[trex]

The biblical proportion migrant crisis within the EU is a huge problem and will turn into a biblical disaster. The EU's response seems to be one of, if we don't look it won't exist. I think this is potentially one of the most destabilising threats to Europe in the past 80 years. Couple this to the EU economic outlook and again, I think we are better off out.

I don't think In or Out has the answer to all of our problems. It's a case of inevitable pain is on the way, which option offers the least amount of pain and my view is OUT is best.

I would have thought that brexit is the way the UK will look away.
There are 65 millions human beings on the move due to wars and famine. They may not all qualify as refugees but they are nevertheless homeless, jobless and need help. The EU tries to help, while we try to reduce our exposure.
As for our economic exposure to the eurozone countries, I think we were pulling in a lot more investment because of their difficulty while we are still inside the EU. Brexit will cancel that advantage.

 

[tillson]

I would have thought that brexit is the way the UK will look away.
There are 65 millions human beings on the move due to wars and famine. They may not all qualify as refugees but they are nevertheless homeless, jobless and need help. The EU tries to help, while we try to reduce our exposure.
As for our economic exposure to the eurozone countries, I think we were pulling in a lot more investment because of their difficulty while we are still inside the EU. Brexit will cancel that advantage.

I don't pretend to know what the answer is, but emptying the population of one continent into another doesn't sit quite right. Maybe a massive aid programme, bigger than anything which has gone before, would help?

It's a huge mess created by the west and those responsible for it should be severely punished. That might at least send out a message that these people are held to account.

 

[oldtom]

Due to a forthcoming Anglo-French family wedding, I have a houseful of French visitors today and over the weekend.

Hearing how they view Britain's future is likely to be once out of the EU is quite alarming. One thing they identify immediately is that Europe will have no need of the London financial district and they fully expect it to become Germany's gain with Frankfurt being the likely base.

They cannot imagine any possibility of a similar event in France or Germany and they are of the belief that, secretly, most EU leaders will be pleased to see the back of Britain so that they can get on with the job of consolidating the EU as the major world trading block.

Notably, they question what Britain has that can be exported so profitably that we will be able to sustain ourselves. Given that they suggest that many EU leaders are fed up up with Britain's constant criticisms and reluctance to agree to major planks of EU-wide policy, they cannot understand who will want to buy from Britain rather than elsewhere on price or any other basis.

The drivel that some in our media and our amateur-talented but professionally-paid politicians have disseminated about Marine Le Pen in France or Lutz Bachmann in Germany being ready to 'do a Farage' like Britain, is seen for what many here suspect; a right-wing propaganda stunt with no substantial backing from either population.

I sometimes wonder if any of these 'Brexit' supporters, a dwindling bunch of misfits if I'm not mistaken, have ever actually been to other European countries, at least further than a beach or pub. Have they ever had discussions with other nationalities; ever wondered how Germany has become so powerful in the last half-century, ditto France and to some extent, Spain and Italy? Do these champions of the anti-EU movement really believe all our ails in Britain are the fault of the EU and that everything will be hunky-dory once we divorce ourselves from decisions foisted upon we British by these 'unelected people in Europe'?

I'm bound to say, an awful lot of British people need to take a step back and examine all their prejudices before pontificating about how great this country will be just by exiting the EU. They seem to be living out some kind of Dinsneyesque fantasy and are determined to drag down all the decent people with morals and a humanitarian nature with them into the abyss which will be the reality rather than any happy ending with a gallant prince.

Given that London, N Ireland and Scotland don't want to leave the EU, what is it that these 'Brexit' people know that the rest don't? They have had a long time to come up with some joined-up answers to the questions that everybody would like answered but as yet, not a single shred of intelligent thought has emerged from anyone in the 'Brexit' camp.

How much worse do things need to get in the UK before these people realise that they got it wrong and admit that the future doesn't after all look very rosy? Will it be when everything we import becomes 20% dearer, 50%? Will Sugar, Dyson, Branson or any of the TV dragons step in and save the nation? I doubt it but I can imagine austerity becoming more severe and currency devaluation becoming a distinct possibility. For older people, pensions may need to be cut to avoid the multi-national businesses having to pay more tax and become less competitive.

Tell me it's just a bad dream and I'll wake up tomorrow and everything will be all right.

Tom

 

[tillson]

Tell me it's just a bad dream and I'll wake up tomorrow and everything will be all right.

Tom

Yes, I am able to confirm that you are in fact dreaming.

I have family living in Italy who have run a technology company there for many years. They say that the worst thing that has ever happened was Italy joining the EU and the second worst joining the Euro. They would welcome a chance to exit.

Over the past 25 years, I have visited most if not all of the major EU countries whilst participating in aviation sport competitions, so have mingled with people of all nationalities. I wouldn't be as mental as you by attempting to extrapolate what their opinion on EU membership is, but what I can say is that I find the other EU citizens that I have met to be friendly and sharing similar outlooks to people of other countries, the UK included. I don't think there is much separating us in that regard.

I see no reason why this relationship should change.

However, seem to have an "in" to the very top of the EU and be privy secret knowledge that, "those at the top" are secretly celebrating the UK leaving the EU. You also seen to have access to data which unequivocally demonstrates that support for BREXIT is dwindling. Of course this may undermine my experiences, but it could be that you are simply spouting a load of old *******$.

For a left wing lunatic who is supposedly a supporter of the working man, it's incredible that you dismiss such people as being creatures whos knowledge of Europe extends only to a continental pup & beach. I think that this typifies the left wing set, thinking that they know best and that they have a god like calling to dictate to the working classes what is best for their own good. I remember you not so long ago as dismissing UK tradesmen as lazy rip-off merchants. It really is a sickening spectacle to witness.

 

[mike killay]

Yes,cameron sacrificed the economy,union and welfare of uk citizens for tory unity. Great,very responsible.

So, It is clear that you do not believe in democracy, you do not believe in the right of self-determination of the people.

 

[anotherkiwi]

Y
I have family living in Italy who have run a technology company there for many years. They say that the worst thing that has ever happened was Italy joining the EU and the second worst joining the Euro. They would welcome a chance to exit.

Because they couldn't avoid paying VAT any more?

I know French business people who say the exact same thing. Tax evasion and corruption was so much easier before the EU... And of course consumer protection and environmental protection are stupid constraints that shackle business and reduce profit...

Yes I have run a business for many years. Yes I think the EU and the Euro were good ideas but that we haven't gone far enough and fast enough. Part of the reason is the UK pissing about and sabotaging much of what could have been done. The city of London's wonderful speculators playing against the Euro on behalf of Wall Street. Pension funds sending European industry to other countries with low wages and no social protection.

I say good riddance and move the Calais camp to Dover, they want to go to your country not be stuck in France.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes, I am able to confirm that you are in fact dreaming.

For a left wing lunatic who is supposedly a supporter of the working man, it's incredible that you dismiss such people as being creatures whos knowledge of Europe extends only to a continental pup & beach. I think that this typifies the left wing set, thinking that they know best and that they have a god like calling to dictate to the working classes what is best for their own good. I remember you not so long ago as dismissing UK tradesmen as lazy rip-off merchants. It really is a sickening spectacle to witness.

Classic tillson! Classic! you have excelled yourself on the diplomatic front with both narrow and broad front insults scattered around like confetti.
Are you trying to outdo Boris Johnson on the campaign to win "hearts and minds" ?
Stereotyping is best left to a master like you to do properly.
Why, it verges on an Art Form the way you do it!
"And it was all done in the best possible taste!" (Cupid Stunt)
There is just one problem, you offered nothing that was contra to Old Toms views that actually made any sense especially regarding this assertion he made.

" They have had a long time to come up with some joined-up answers to the questions that everybody would like answered but as yet, not a single shred of intelligent thought has emerged from anyone in the 'Brexit' camp."

Can you for the mutual benefit of all offer proof that this is not actually correct in all or even any respect?
Or is it a case that you can write the answer in inch high letters on the back of a postage stamp?

 

[oldgroaner]

So, It is clear that you do not believe in democracy, you do not believe in the right of self-determination of the people.

Care to explain the relevance on that, Mike?
What democracy, and what self determination?

 

[Kudoscycles]

That's just a publicity stunt to get a section in the Daily Fail.

BREXIT is a long term investment for our futures. It's like buying stocks & shares and expecting big returns after just a few days, it won't happen, there will be ups and downs. Hold your nerve, stiff upper lip, show some English spunk, the good times will come.

Till son....from which direction will these good times come?
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

What is this nonsense that the referendum was 'only' advisory?
Cameron promised a simple in or out vote.
'Advisory' was invented by disgruntled losers.

Half of the Conservative PCP are leavers, I hear that some of the younger ones, with promotion in mind have discovered that they were only luke warm about remain.
UKIP is waiting in the wings.
The House of Lords can return a bill from the commons, but there is some doubt that they can refuse the stated will of the people.

Mike,the EU vote was specifically detailed as advisory,in contrast to the Scottish vote,which had the power of law. Parliament can choose to ignore the vote.
it is not true that half of the conservatives are leavers,we know how many there are,there are 83,the number who supported Leadsom.
If parliament voted tomorrow the SNP,most of the Welsh,most of Labour and 200 plus Tory voters would vote remain,they will get the opportunity to vote remain when parliament vote to repeal the European Communities Act,the statute that took us into the EU in the first place.
Theresa May is looking for a way of getting us out of this mess,she may purposely put the vote to Parliament so that she can say that she tried to follow the Brexit vote to pacify the leavers but the legal system did not let her do so.
Why are you ardent leavers who were promised £8billion by Boris,which seems to have evaporated now,not after Boris's blood....he and Gove blatantly lied with their promises but nobody seems to be bothered now.?
I noticed on another posting that Freego have put £100 on every bike,probably because of the weak £, as a result of the Brexit vote,are you leavers not bothered by all these price rises?
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

The choice was simple for Cameron. He could have decided not to promise a referendum and in so doing he would have lost the general election to Labour and the Small Scottish Woman. UKIP would have taken too many votes away from the Tory party.

If Cameron wanted to win the last general election, he had no choice but to offer the referendum because of the Farage / UKIP affect, so the referendum was "forced." France, Germany, Italy and Holland will face a similar situation in future.

The dissatisfaction of EU citizens will intensify as the migrant crisis continues to deepen and the inevitable economic catastrophe approaches for Greece, Spain, Italy and Portugal. Both of these factors are going to hoover up unthinkable amounts of cash in terms of bailouts and handouts. Stop pretending that it's only the UK who face difficult times ahead. Us being shackled to this mess posses as bigger threat as anything else. We could be in the best place to stand by and watch the fireworks.

I agree about the collapse of the Euro and maybe the EU political system and there are many people in Europe equally disaffected by the lack of democracy of the EU. But whether we are in or out of the EU we will feel the draught of any destruction in the EU.
But we are not helping our trading partners by jumping ship just at the point when the ship is rocky,I have lots of friends in the EU, they think we are a bunch of S........ In what we are doing.
We are a strong country in the EU,why don't we use our strength to influence the failings in the EU,we will have plenty of allies who are anti Juncker but leaving does nobody any good.
Cameron was an idiot offering such a simple vote on such a complex subject,which seems to get more complex daily,I still cannot see any positive outcome to Brexit,can anyone see what we are going to achieve even in the long term?
KudosDave