Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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No , I,m saying in theory any qualified skiing instructor within eu should according to eu legislation be able to get work instructing..fact was they simply could not. I,m not passing judgement with way. I,ve been visiting Alps / Pyrenees for 40 years. You,ll find all sorts of nationalities in ski chalets, working tables, serving in bars etc etc. You,ll find fre nch skiing instructors. Is it free movement or not ? Which is it ?
Skiing instructing in France was a closed shop. You couldn't even take an English instructor on trips without it causing problems. We had one expelled off slopes for " helping"..
But the point was and is , rightly or wrongly its been my experience the French simply ignore any rules they feel like. Not sure its a history thing , culture or whatever, but compared to UK they do.
I remember one morning a young French lad (perhaps14) rode down library steps, accross square, lent his trials bike against wall , walked into shop and bought his baguettes. Then did reverse journey. Nobody as much as raised an eyebrow. In England the old ladies would have battered him..its just a different way of looking at laws..
Like I said earlier...it cuts both ways ..but the French will ignore what doesn't suit them. We tend to take note and do what we are supposed to. This has caused issues accross eu.
Flud, aren't you ever going to quit attacking the French and start getting back on Topic?
Such comments repeated constantly seem to fit the following description very well
"Francophobe
  1. marked by a fear or strong dislike of France or French culture or customs
Francophobe
nounFrom the Merriam Webster Dictionary"


 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
For those who would agree that Jeremy Corbyn has been attacked from all sides, quite unfairly in my opinion, there is an interesting letter in the Guardian signed by a host of luminaries in various fields which supports your view.

It's very succinct but says what needs to be heard. My reason for including it here is to demonstrate that some highly intelligent people support Corbyn and believe he offers a better way out of the mess that years of tory and tory-lite government have produced. Those in the PLP who have undermined Corbyn also undermine any chance of an alternative political system being introduced which might actually offer hope to ordinary people.

13769559_939000492913420_7463004683941004141_n.jpg

Tom
 

Kudoscycles

Official Trade Member
Apr 15, 2011
5,566
5,048
www.kudoscycles.com
For those who would agree that Jeremy Corbyn has been attacked from all sides, quite unfairly in my opinion, there is an interesting letter in the Guardian signed by a host of luminaries in various fields which supports your view.

It's very succinct but says what needs to be heard. My reason for including it here is to demonstrate that some highly intelligent people support Corbyn and believe he offers a better way out of the mess that years of tory and tory-lite government have produced. Those in the PLP who have undermined Corbyn also undermine any chance of an alternative political system being introduced which might actually offer hope to ordinary people.

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Tom
The problem is that Jeremy Corbyn,reminds so many of Michael Foot,both probably honest and principled guys,but left wing principles do not win elections,as Tony Blair knew to win elections in the UK you have to appeal to the centre ground.
The PLP understand this,thats why they want rid of him but the Labour Party rank and file like his principled views and ideas,but those lefties there are just not enough of them and they are blinkered to their principles.
Principles are all very well but first you have to get in government.
Boris Johnson lied like hell before the referendum,everyone knows that,but after the vote all his promises were quickly forgotten and the vote stands,now he has been rewarded with Foreign Secretary.
Leavers should now be shouting where is the £8 billion that Boris said he was going to spend on the NHS? But that seems to have been forgotten.
KudosDave
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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The problem is that Jeremy Corbyn,reminds so many of Michael Foot,both probably honest and principled guys,but left wing principles do not win elections,as Tony Blair knew to win elections in the UK you have to appeal to the centre ground.
The PLP understand this,thats why they want rid of him but the Labour Party rank and file like his principled views and ideas,but those lefties there are just not enough of them and they are blinkered to their principles.
Principles are all very well but first you have to get in government.
Boris Johnson lied like hell before the referendum,everyone knows that,but after the vote all his promises were quickly forgotten and the vote stands,now he has been rewarded with Foreign Secretary.
Leavers should now be shouting where is the £8 billion that Boris said he was going to spend on the NHS? But that seems to have been forgotten.
KudosDave
The problem for me is much simpler.
Either you are a socialist or you are not.
Quite plainly there is little point in pretending that the PLP is in fact socialist when all the evidence is against that.
This country will it seems only elect a right wing Government?
So be it!
Not with my support as to vote to maintain this fiction does nothing to change anything, does it?
At least we are being honest about where we stand
Do I want a Government made up of the dregs of New Labour?
No more than I want a Tory one.
Same team with different shirts, but same game.
No thank you!
lets go for clause 50 right away
Events will make or break the Tory reputation with the public.
 

trex

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 15, 2011
7,703
2,671
I like a coalition government.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,216
30,616
The problem is that Jeremy Corbyn,reminds so many of Michael Foot,both probably honest and principled guys,but left wing principles do not win elections,as Tony Blair knew to win elections in the UK you have to appeal to the centre ground.
The PLP understand this,thats why they want rid of him but the Labour Party rank and file like his principled views and ideas,but those lefties there are just not enough of them and they are blinkered to their principles.
All true Dave, but Tony Blair was not a socialist, just a liberal alternative pretending to be something else.

Now that the Labour party have lost their Scottish MPs and Wales has Plaid Cymru, the Blair tactics will no longer work since the remaining left wing vote is nothing like large enough for sufficient MPs to form a one party left wing Westminster government.

So they may as well stay true to their membership, deselect the fake socialist PLP Blairites and form a true Socialist alternative, hoping to achieve a coalition with others. With a strong SNP presence plus Lib-Dems and others that is perfectly possible.
.
 
Mar 9, 2016
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flud, I don't think you understand 'free movement' correctly. It's just mean you are free to apply for a job that you qualify for, not that you can practice as you do in the UK. Not just France, Germany is also pretty strict on qualifications too. As with any ski instructor 'helping' on the piste, the piste is not public path. If that person instructs, he/she must carry professional identifications and must be insured for this activity. French ski instructors wear uniform for a reason.
Daughter has euro wide qualification trex...almost worthless if looking to instruct in France...
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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Its great until young lad hits on old lady in library square ??
Ah, the "What if" game, a peculiarly English tradition. It's always foolish, for the simple reason it has no end, short of banning everything. And it's why we are so stupidly legalistic in over-enforcing all the rules.

The people and officialdom of this country need to chill out, relax and enjoy living without so much self imposed limitation on freedom.
.
 
Mar 9, 2016
833
402
Ah, the "What if" game, a peculiarly English tradition. It's always foolish, for the simple reason it has no end, short of banning everything. And it's why we are so stupidly legalistic in over-enforcing all the rules.

The people and officialdom of this country need to chill out, relax and enjoy living without so much self imposed limitation on freedom.
.
Mmmm. That contradicts all the benefits many stayers have been attributing to h&s through eu..
But you are right...there is a happy compromise somewhere, trouble is we all draw line in a different place..
I also think it highlights the point I made weeks ago about our closest cultural cousins are over the big pond somewhere. The blame and claim culture has taken hold far stronger here than France.
Can you really imagine folk's reaction if some young lad ( underage) drove through town on pavement, no tax, test , insurance or even registered ??? Then think what would happen if he bumped into someone. I,m not saying right or wrong either way ( but as normal you look for the argument) I,m highlighting our differences with France/ French.

And its far from foolish. Its called being prepared and doing things properly for benefit of all. Strictly speaking a 14 kid shouldn't be riding up library steps on his trials bike ! But my village in France see it as ok...or turn a blind eye anyway. Until it goes wrong !

The same French attitude sees far more killed on their roads...sees far more uninsured drivers, sees much more drink driving...

Interestingly the French have a 100bhp limit on bikes sold in country.( its under review and bikers do get around it, ) but they don't have mot ( control technique) for motorcycles.( again under review but at moment there isn't one)

So if you bought a new Fireblade in France it would be limited to 100bhp but nobody would ever check it throughout its life...on anything !!! ( I didn't know about 100bhp limit , bought a Blackbird engine for a car and was seriously disappointed...was a French spec engine...easy to get through SVA / emissions tho)( meant a cam change and remap/ power commander..a lot of hassle)
No road tax either..and control technique every two years. Very thorough test but cars pass that would fail mot ! Again very odd. Got a list of stuff needing doing ( including deff fail in UK) and a pass cert...!!
 
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derf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 4, 2014
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Do you not think that the massive delays at Dover,due supposedly to increased security as a result of the recent terrorist attacks are mainly a protest.
For gods sake we are an island,it is more difficult to get weapons into our country than mainland Europe. Why would a terrorist go through all the difficulty of getting weapons into the UK and then go through the risk of shipping them out again through Dover. When he can buy what he likes in the Ukraine and ship overland with minimal risk.
The French sent one security guy over to Dover on one of the busiest weekends of the year,just to cause maximum disruption,it was an anti-UK protest,probably anti-Brexit.
If they were so concerned about arms into France they should have closed the motorways and back roads from Belgium,Switzerland and Italy,but that would have disrupted mainly their own people.
It is the French being French and we might as well get used to it,because they will do similar every time the Brexit negotiations dont go their way.
I am told by informed sources(got that from the Mail)that the French have a way of controlling immigration,they get a migrant applicant to fill a 37 page form,all in French,which has to be handed into an office in Lyon,which is only open alternate Thursdays,not including Saints days....I exaggerate but the principle is there,we in the UK appear to play the game fair,as do the Germans.
KudosDave
I crossed French Italian border in Menton today. For the first time in my experience border guards both sides and a small que of vehicles(remembered fondly zipping through on a brompton years ago thinking the disheveled border post a quaint relic). My cynical reading is that it's all window dressing to make the public think the govt is doing something. Remarked to a friend earlier today that soldiers on boulevard danglais with 5.56mm assault rifle isn't really the answer to another 20 ton truck and fanatic.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
3,197
The problem is that Jeremy Corbyn,reminds so many of Michael Foot,both probably honest and principled guys,but left wing principles do not win elections,as Tony Blair knew to win elections in the UK you have to appeal to the centre ground.
The PLP understand this,thats why they want rid of him but the Labour Party rank and file like his principled views and ideas,but those lefties there are just not enough of them and they are blinkered to their principles.
Principles are all very well but first you have to get in government.
Boris Johnson lied like hell before the referendum,everyone knows that,but after the vote all his promises were quickly forgotten and the vote stands,now he has been rewarded with Foreign Secretary.
Leavers should now be shouting where is the £8 billion that Boris said he was going to spend on the NHS? But that seems to have been forgotten.
KudosDave
I see that a legal challenge to Corbyn appearing on the ballet paper by default has begun. A ruling is due on Thursday.

I'm no lawyer, but from the wording of the rules, it seems pretty obvious that JC's name should go forward without the 60 odd MPs supporting him. In circumstances where there is no vacancy for a leader, which there isn't because JC is the current leader, it is only the challenger who requires the MPs support. If there is a vacancy, for example if JC resigned, then all prospective leadership candidates would need the minimum support. To me it seems dead simple, why the court case?

If the current situation is overturned on Thursday and JC is excluded from the ballet, it will be a new low for Westminster. I thought they were already morally bankrupt, but they will have managed to sink even further into the dirt.

I heard on the news that Sarah Champion (heiress to the spark plug fortune) has asked JC for her old job back having taken a moral stance and resigned from his cabinet only a few days ago. I nearly split my sides laughing at this directionless, opportunistic & pointless woman. What a waste of body tissue she has turned out to be! Obviously she is sensing that Owen Whatshisface is on a hiding to nothing.

I await Thursdays judgement with interest, but it will not surprise me to see JC excluded from the ballet.
 
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derf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 4, 2014
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For those who would agree that Jeremy Corbyn has been attacked from all sides, quite unfairly in my opinion, there is an interesting letter in the Guardian signed by a host of luminaries in various fields which supports your view.

It's very succinct but says what needs to be heard. My reason for including it here is to demonstrate that some highly intelligent people support Corbyn and believe he offers a better way out of the mess that years of tory and tory-lite government have produced. Those in the PLP who have undermined Corbyn also undermine any chance of an alternative political system being introduced which might actually offer hope to ordinary people.

View attachment 14723

Tom
I support corbyn and found it astonishing that Angela eagles deliberate attempt to mount a coup d'etat because she didn't have enough support to follow due democratic process wasn't villified more. But that sadly says something about the level of integrity at present more broadly. I will continue to support corbyn even though I know he will never be elected in the current cynical self serving climate,mainly because any of the other professional politicians like Owen smith have no principles at all. One may as well nominate Ronald MacDonald as the next leader instead.
 

tillson

Esteemed Pedelecer
May 29, 2008
5,252
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Remarked to a friend earlier today that soldiers on boulevard danglais with 5.56mm assault rifle isn't really the answer to another 20 ton truck and fanatic.
It is if they manage to put a cap in the driver's worthless ass.

In the UK, the only thing that would govern the duration of a similar attack is the capacity of the fuel tank on the lorry. You aren't going to find a bobby with a gun in a hurry (maybe in London, but not anywhere else).
 

derf

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 4, 2014
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It is if they manage to put a cap in the driver's worthless ass.

In the UK, the only thing that would govern the duration of a similar attack is the capacity of the fuel tank on the lorry. You aren't going to find a bobby with a gun in a hurry (maybe in London, but not anywhere else).
Yes,without derailing g this into a thread for gun nuts,in that position ID want heavier calibre than standard NATO round,at least 7.62 perhaps if possible 50 which is why I thought the rather nice but inexperienced looking infantry might be more show than go
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,216
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Mmmm. That contradicts all the benefits many stayers have been attributing to h&s through eu..
But you are right...there is a happy compromise somewhere, trouble is we all draw line in a different place..
I also think it highlights the point I made weeks ago about our closest cultural cousins are over the big pond somewhere. The blame and claim culture has taken hold far stronger here than France.
Can you really imagine folk's reaction if some young lad ( underage) drove through town on pavement, no tax, test , insurance or even registered ??? Then think what would happen if he bumped into someone. I,m not saying right or wrong either way ( but as normal you look for the argument) I,m highlighting our differences with France/ French.

And its far from foolish. Its called being prepared and doing things properly for benefit of all. Strictly speaking a 14 kid shouldn't be riding up library steps on his trials bike ! But my village in France see it as ok...or turn a blind eye anyway. Until it goes wrong !

The same French attitude sees far more killed on their roads...sees far more uninsured drivers, sees much more drink driving...

Interestingly the French have a 100bhp limit on bikes sold in country.( its under review and bikers do get around it, ) but they don't have mot ( control technique) for motorcycles.( again under review but at moment there isn't one)

So if you bought a new Fireblade in France it would be limited to 100bhp but nobody would ever check it throughout its life...on anything !!! ( I didn't know about 100bhp limit , bought a Blackbird engine for a car and was seriously disappointed...was a French spec engine...easy to get through SVA / emissions tho)( meant a cam change and remap/ power commander..a lot of hassle)
No road tax either..and control technique every two years. Very thorough test but cars pass that would fail mot ! Again very odd. Got a list of stuff needing doing ( including deff fail in UK) and a pass cert...!!
Oddly enough it was Germany that first proposed an EU wide100 bhp limit long ago. The EU turned it down but France for some reason adopted it. There was a general thought at the time of Germany's proposal that it was because BMW at that time long ago couldn't match the Japanese sport bikes!

You were very wrong in saying this:

( but as normal you look for the argument)

I'm not specifically looking for an argument with you, just informing you of a long held point of view. I've very long disliked our UK legalism and believe two European countries get this far more right than we do, but for very different reasons from each other.

I most admire the Italian way of the individual choosing whether to obey laws and their police making a judgment on each occasion whether to act according to the behaviour seen.

My reasoning is quite simple, it means the only people who get troubled by the law and punished are the ones who get things wrong in their judgment regarding obedience. Under what I see as our stupid system, everyone disobeying a law can get punished, whether their decison turned out to be wise or not. All that does is maximise the inconvenience to everyone and build resentment.

Yes there are more accidents etc under the greater freedom system, but there are always accidents anyway and no-one can say what a suitable level is. It's matter of balance. We could institute a universal 20 mph limit everywhere with all vehicles governed to that and slash our present very low deathrate, but the inconvenience and all forms of cost would be immense. I think we have the enforcement balance wrong, leaning far too much to the safety end at too great a social cost.

Our way brings the arrogant stupidity of a police traffic officer insisting to a driver of a new high end BMW who was doing 90 on an empty motorway that he was driving dangerously. Arrant nonsense of course, especially since said officer will be happy with the 70 mph driver of an old small car in dense motorway traffic, simply because the law says that's ok. It's in situations like this where I want to see commonsense judgment from our law enforcers, rather than the far too common rigid zombie approach.

Other examples of our idiocy are speed bumps and speed cameras, both of which promote slow past the obstacle and sprints between. All they achieve is a worsening of pollution, premature failure of suspension components, anger and frustration. There is clear evidence that they do not prevent accidents or deaths.
.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,216
30,616
soldiers on boulevard danglais with 5.56mm assault rifle isn't really the answer to another 20 ton truck and fanatic.
All a truck driver has in front of him are a sheet of thin steel and a sheet of laminated glass. Hot lead will stop him in his tracks, all it needs is presence of mind and I wouldn't hesitate in this circumstance.
.
 

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