Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Because I used the term "too many young people", the implication being that their numbers are high, but not all and certainly not by association.

oldtom said:

The 'leave' supporters really don't like the association I make with the tattooed, skinhead thugs proudly wearing and brandishing union clothing, flags and banners, being disrespectful to and intimidating immigrants already in the UK. Those people I have described proudly claim to be patriots but they are not - they are simply racists answering the call from fascist politicians who always appeal to the simpletons, thugs and anti-social elements of society.

If there are any in this forum to whom that association applies, I say, 'If the cap fits, wear it!' However, if you believe you are undeserving of such a slight, I say, 'It goes with the territory - you chose to link arms in common cause with the nastiest morons in British society and by your friends, you shall be known.

Using oldtom's stereotyping, my statement would have read that medical students are attending a building which is now called a university, paying £9000 a year to get a "degree" in a subject that is absolutely no use whatsoever." Which is clearly unfair and untrue, but would however pass oldtom's absurd "if the cap fits wear it" and his "it goes with the territory" tests. Because lets face it, some university courses are nothing short of a scam and do not equip young people for anything useful.

You aren't a hater of the working classes too are you? I thought we had a bit of common ground regarding "the workers."

No Tillson I am most definitely not a hater of anybody, the strongest emotion people can raise in me is mild disappointment (probably an age related thing)
You and I have quite a large amount of common ground on many points.
Concern for the future of others rather than simple economics being one of them I trust.

 

[oldgroaner]

As far as I can see, Owen Smith, even if by some fluke he can become leader of the PLP, cannot command the support of huge swathes of traditional Labour voters.
Smith will not carry the large number of Corbynites.
How many Blairites will survive any reselection process?
With the loss of the Scottish seats, Labour cannot get enough seats to win.
They are finished.

Perhaps, but that isn't to anyone's advantage, is it?
Unless the Lib Dems managed to reinvent themselves we will end up with UKIP as the opposition.
To which I can only say
Perish the thought!

 

[derf]

The problem is you're thinking of borders in an old world sense.

Estate Agents, banking, finance etc etc, can all be done remotely anyway, so if people want to under cut, they can do. Think Purple Brick, Uber etc etc, its all about cutting people out of the supply chain.

Even with bikes, look at brands like Rose, Canyon etc etc, they are all about supplying across borders at prices that old style supply chains can't compete with. The world is changing and building a wall won't stop it!

We're part of a global market place, and that means services, products AND workers...you can't stop progress.

Which is why brexit is such a futile archaic gesture. A costly detour,we will reintegrate with Europe in the end regardless. But it will cost us all.

 

[derf]

As far as I can see, Owen Smith, even if by some fluke he can become leader of the PLP, cannot command the support of huge swathes of traditional Labour voters.
Smith will not carry the large number of Corbynites.
How many Blairites will survive any reselection process?
With the loss of the Scottish seats, Labour cannot get enough seats to win.
They are finished.

Yes,although the brexit Tories have some internal opposition.

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes,although the brexit Tories have some internal opposition.

Actually what is finished is the PLP as an organisation, what becomes of the Labour Party itself is an entirely different and as yet unwritten story.

 

[oldtom]

I had the pleasure of watching the André Rieu concert in Maastricht on Saturday which was attended by an international audience in the square including over 80 nationalities. The orchestra alone has players from 14 different countries and everyone enjoyed the gentle, humorous barbs against England (Britain to us) made by the maestro during the brief interludes between musical pieces. You can imagine the sort of thing - 'Hello England; welcome to Europe!' amongst other things.

Rieu's concerts are a truly global appreciation of great music performed by the very best musicians and enjoyed across all borders by people from all walks of life. Nobody seemed to give a toss about politics but huge amounts of mutual fun and respect were in evidence. I really don't understand anyone who thinks being outside of such a great organisation as a united Europe is better for we British. I believe we should be there, right at the heart of the EU and not some estranged, sulking partner, constantly criticising the other nations or the commission or the parliament.

The atmosphere of Maastricht should extend across everything we do - music, art, business, justice, sport and just about everything we do is international so there should be no artificial barriers or 'them and us' obstructive practices placed in the way of mutual progress as members of a global society. We all need to eat, we desire the same white goods, cars, holidays and so on. Neither the Germans, the Italians nor French decided the EU was not for them so why do we have be different? How will be advantaged? That the most right-wing, political extremists in Britain advocated 'Brexit' in itself seems to me like a pretty good reason not to do it.

I haven't much grasp of economics but some have suggested the EU costs us too much. Well, I have a difficulty with that as, since the tories came to power, we have been told we need austerity to clear the debt and we need to learn to live within our means. That would be fine if it were true but it isn't. Osborne's economic measures have multiplied the national debt his party inherited to levels never seen before and it shows no sign of coming down.

The QE programme of just creating more and more money and pumping it into the economy without the currency being devalued one iota is breathtakingly extraordinary and absolutely shameful when combined with cuts in public services and social benefits. To really twist the knife as it were, to then vote to write a blank cheque for the Trident replacement nuclear missile system is a disgrace.

Tom

 

[mike killay]

Tom,
Your appreciation of things European is fine, as is your wish to be part of it.
But, for me the political control, and the direction of travel were unacceptable.

If Euro 2 arises from the ashes of the experiment that I believe is already failing, who knows, maybe I will be a supporter,
but the EU?
No thanks.

 

[oldtom]

Owen Smith has said he wants another referendum,I dont agree with that,it should be put to the people by a General Election,when it can be explained in hindsight all the implications.

Smith will pontificate in any way he thinks might give him an edge. He is one colossal, back-stabbing traitor to the Labour movement and is a poor politician anyway. He is just another pink tory whose election agent managed to find a seat worth contesting - it wouldn't matter which colour he stood under as he's simply a career politician and he's now on the gravy train.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Which is why brexit is such a futile archaic gesture. A costly detour,we will reintegrate with Europe in the end regardless. But it will cost us all.

I sincerely hope any re-integration (God forbid we ever need one!) doesn't occur after another war.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Some people don't miss any opportunity!



Tom

 

[tillson]

I had the pleasure of watching the André Rieu concert in Maastricht on Saturday which was attended by an international audience in the square including over 80 nationalities. The orchestra alone has players from 14 different countries and everyone enjoyed the gentle, humorous barbs against England (Britain to us) made by the maestro during the brief interludes between musical pieces. You can imagine the sort of thing - 'Hello England; welcome to Europe!' amongst other things.

Rieu's concerts are a truly global appreciation of great music performed by the very best musicians and enjoyed across all borders by people from all walks of life. Nobody seemed to give a toss about politics but huge amounts of mutual fun and respect were in evidence. I really don't understand anyone who thinks being outside of such a great organisation as a united Europe is better for we British. I believe we should be there, right at the heart of the EU and not some estranged, sulking partner, constantly criticising the other nations or the commission or the parliament.

The atmosphere of Maastricht should extend across everything we do - music, art, business, justice, sport and just about everything we do is international so there should be no artificial barriers or 'them and us' obstructive practices placed in the way of mutual progress as members of a global society. We all need to eat, we desire the same white goods, cars, holidays and so on. Neither the Germans, the Italians nor French decided the EU was not for them so why do we have be different? How will be advantaged? That the most right-wing, political extremists in Britain advocated 'Brexit' in itself seems to me like a pretty good reason not to do it.

I haven't much grasp of economics but some have suggested the EU costs us too much. Well, I have a difficulty with that as, since the tories came to power, we have been told we need austerity to clear the debt and we need to learn to live within our means. That would be fine if it were true but it isn't. Osborne's economic measures have multiplied the national debt his party inherited to levels never seen before and it shows no sign of coming down.

The QE programme of just creating more and more money and pumping it into the economy without the currency being devalued one iota is breathtakingly extraordinary and absolutely shameful when combined with cuts in public services and social benefits. To really twist the knife as it were, to then vote to write a blank cheque for the Trident replacement nuclear missile system is a disgrace.

Tom

What I don't understand is why we must be part of the EU to have this type of international friendship. Why does leaving mean that the UK can't have a friendly relationship with its neighbours? Who's is the aggressor here saying that if we leave, that's it, you're not welcome anymore?

I have no animosity towards the EU, I like the people & visiting their countries. Visitors to the UK are welcome too. I just don't want to be part of the EU political union. Too many problems associated with that. What's the problem?

 

[oldgroaner]

Tom,
Your appreciation of things European is fine, as is your wish to be part of it.
But, for me the political control, and the direction of travel were unacceptable.

If Euro 2 arises from the ashes of the experiment that I believe is already failing, who knows, maybe I will be a supporter,
but the EU?
No thanks.

And I hold the completely opposite view that as Churchill proposed we should form a "United States of Europe"

I really can't see what you thought was so wrong with the slow move in that direction as that was always the avowed intention right from the earliest days and a great prize to be achieved, instead of retreating in defeat into our little island, where the future at best is to be second rate and mediocre, ruled by the same elite that had had so damaging a run of failure for most of my life.
This is nothing more than a futile acceptance of our failure to be able to participate in a Parliament of equals .
Now we will either accept their rule, while having no influence as we watch the United States of Europe form, quite possibly in a form we become very alarmed by!
Or be sold to the Chinese, repeating the fate of Scotland when England paid off it's debts and rule passed to Westminster.
We will then (With apologies to Robert Burns) be
"Be bought and sold for Chinese Gold
What a parcel of rogues for a nation"
The parcel of course Meaning our beloved Government.
And that will make us everyone's enemy, won't it? including the Americans.

 

[oldgroaner]

What I don't understand is why we must be part of the EU to have this type of international friendship. Why does leaving mean that the UK can't have a friendly relationship with its neighbours? Who's is the aggressor here saying that if we leave, that's it, you're not welcome anymore?

I have no animosity towards the EU, I like the people & visiting their countries. Visitors to the UK are welcome too. I just don't want to be part of the EU political union. Too many problems associated with that. What's the problem?

Most of the problems have little effect on us, and we could accommodate,
If Europe has problems they will still affect us, yet now we cannot affect them. The problems we have given ourselves by leaving are unknown quantities, we don't have a plan to deal with them either, the decision is as wise as "Tombstoning" off a pier when you don't know how deep the water is.

That's the problem, it doesn't make any sense to take such a risk for the hell of it, it's basically a juvenile thing to do.
But let's push the button and see how it turns out eh?
What's not to like?

 

[flecc]

Why does leaving mean that the UK can't have a friendly relationship with its neighbours? Who's is the aggressor here saying that if we leave, that's it, you're not welcome anymore?

It's not so much a matter of aggression, simply that by leaving we are seen as not co-operating in what the other nations see as a desirable objective.

And this is on top of a 44 year history of failing to co-operate, despite the other EU countries often bending over backwards to give the UK the variations it wanted. For example we were allowed to be outside Shengen, we were permitted to ignore the euro, we were permitted some renegotiations, we were permitted border controls in France rather than having them here, and we gained a huge ongoing rebate from the contributions we were due.

Just stand in their shoes and look at the way we've been undermining their objectives despite every concession, and you'll quickly understand why they feel some animosity towards us.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

It's not so much a matter of aggression, simply that by leaving we are seen as not co-operating in what the other nations see as a desirable objective.

And this is on top of a 44 year history of failing to co-operate, despite the other EU countries often bending over backwards to give the UK the variations it wanted. For example we were allowed to be outside Shengen, we were permitted to ignore the euro, we were permitted some renegotiations, we were permitted border controls in France rather than having them here, and we gained a huge ongoing rebate from the contributions we were due.

Just stand in their shoes and look at the way we've been undermining their objectives despite every concession, and you'll quickly understand why they feel some animosity towards us.
.

That won't last long as they will quickly realise that the correct point of view from their perspective should be a feeling of relief.
There are plenty more nice people they could invite, Mr Putin for example!

(If our Government doesn't try to do a deal with him first!)

 

[oldgroaner]

The Denial Campaign has started
"
Yet ANOTHER major gadget manufacturer is using Brexit to justify a price hike
BREXIT reportedly causing this company to raise prices - will your laptop be affected?
Buying a laptop could be about to get a lot more expensive after another leading maker revealed it would be raising prices in the wake of Brexit.

Computers made by the world’s top PC manufacturer will be getting a 10 per cent price rise from August 1st, sources confirmed.

Lenovo, the world’s leading PC manufacturer, confirmed the move in a message to its partners which was leaked to the media."

Nothing to do with Brexit of course and the effect on the pound, and we can expect a lot more BS like this in future can't we?
ASUS and Dell have done the same.

 

[mike killay]

Flecc,
Just look at your post 'Permitted, permitted.'
Like most of my fellow countrymen, I have little interest in politics and grew up in a free, sovereign nation.
It was only later that the full horror of the European project dawned on us, and we don't want it.
If our traitorous politicians were so in favour of the EU project, why did they want so many concessions.
Because they knew that if they told the truth to the UK people, there would be uproar.
Now the uproar has manifested itself.

 

[tillson]

It's not so much a matter of aggression, simply that by leaving we are seen as not co-operating in what the other nations see as a desirable objective.

And this is on top of a 44 year history of failing to co-operate, despite the other EU countries often bending over backwards to give the UK the variations it wanted. For example we were allowed to be outside Shengen, we were permitted to ignore the euro, we were permitted some renegotiations, we were permitted border controls in France rather than having them here, and we gained a huge ongoing rebate from the contributions we were due.

Just stand in their shoes and look at the way we've been undermining their objectives despite every concession, and you'll quickly understand why they feel some animosity towards us.
.

I can empathise with some of these remarks and it's easy to imagine, if say the French had our membership easements and rebate, how we as a nation would feel about that. I know it would never be off the pages of the Daily Fail.

I'm not against the principle of freindship, cooperation standardisation and certain other factors, but I think the EU as a project has taken a turn in the wrong direction. It's expanded taking on countries which are not economically compatible with other members and I can see big problems which aren't very far down the road. My gut feeling is that we are better off out of it.

I think there will need to be big changes if the EU is to survive and my feeling is at least one other key country will hold a referendum and vote out.

I think EU Mk2 will be better, but it's a gamble whether we are better to be members of EU Mk2 from the begining or to join after the rubble has settled. I think the latter, but that's just my opinion.

 

[tillson]

You and I have quite a large amount of common ground on many points.
Concern for the future of others rather than simple economics being one of them I trust.

Yes, we perhaps desire the same outcome, but can't agree on the best way to get there.

 

[oldgroaner]

Flecc,
Just look at your post 'Permitted, permitted.'
Like most of my fellow countrymen, I have little interest in politics and grew up in a free, sovereign nation.
It was only later that the full horror of the European project dawned on us, and we don't want it.
If our traitorous politicians were so in favour of the EU project, why did they want so many concessions.
Because they knew that if they told the truth to the UK people, there would be uproar.
Now the uproar has manifested itself.

Mike just what are you on about? would you prefer we go back to the days of the Saxon Kingdoms?
What is this Sovereign Nation that you go on about? and as to if the politicians told the truth, so you realise you have just admitted that you never bothered to check on the situation?
Tell me what is the "Full Horror?"
is it
The Paid Holidays you enjoy?
The limited Working hours?
Health and Safety?
Environmental protection?
Workers Rights?
Ability to live and work all over Europe?
Are these the horrors you mention?
Do reveal the shocking Horror that you feel : what is it?
You grew up in a "Free and Sovereign Nation" where all of the above things came to you via the EU and lets face it anything that wasn't in your favour we had a veto on.
Any legislation that has repressed the public has been home grown hasn't it?
And if we were in some way robbed of our sovereignty, exactly what form did that take? lets see
Did it stop us waging aggressive wars?
No
Did it stop us deporting foreign Criminals?
No it didn't that was nothing to do with the EU
By all means check up on that for yourself and see what the reasons (when anyone bothered) really were.
Did it stop us throwing out foreign criminals that entered the country?
No, we had the power to do that, would you like me to quote the EU regulations on that?
The problem was that due to cost savings our beloved Government lost the best part of a million immigrants, didn't they?
If the majority of the people knew who the real culprits were the MP's in this country would have felt it safer to leave and live somewhere else.
"It was only later that the full horror of the European project dawned on us, and we don't want it."
lets face it that statement makes no sense at all.
What is so Horrible about the idea of Humans forming large scale societies? surely that is not simply inevitable but desirable too?
By the way, who are you referring to with "we" and "us" are you supposing this is a mass delusion?
Or just a UKIP slogan?