Interestingly I didn't think it is a problem either, my thoughts are more along the lines that the numbers are so small from Europe that Brexit won't have any effect!
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
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You and I both know that Labour voters are like the Yorkshireman in the old proverb
"You can always tell a Yorkshireman,
But you can't tell him much!"
In London it's very different, in that we have a very high number of EU immigrants. Since the French overseas still get to vote in their domestic elections, the high number of French here prompted their politicians to campaign here, exposing London as electorally the fifth biggest city in France!
Kent isn't much different, many French running businesses there and French markets commonplace in Kentish towns due to the tunnel and high speed rail line.
I think this is great, one world, one people.
.
This Spectator article is excellent - it addresses the point of sovereignty in a calm and well thought out way using only facts to back up the writers position rather than speculation or plain inaccuracies - 10/10 - if only there were more like this coming from both sides.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/brexit-facts-not-fear/
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2016/06/brexit-facts-not-fear/
My Yorkshire village has very little diversity in its population, and many of the locals seem not to have travelled beyond our shores, except possibly to go to war.
Since the sixties, I've lived, worked and travelled in over a dozen countries, and been treated very well on the whole, and often meeting with unimaginable hospitality. The only racism I've encountered was from a Dutch cop, who got a swift ticking off from his boss.
Given the appalling standard of general education in our country, and the insularity fostered by the media, how can I possibly expect most of my village to view the world as I do -- an exciting place full of amazing people -- and give a welcome of the sort that I currently experience in Spain?
Instead they fear an imaginary foe, where they could see a kindred spirit beneath the surface appearance.
The lack of housing, employment and proper healthcare are used as a stick to beat immigrants with, when it should be directed at the fat backsides of our politicians who cannot and will not serve the interests of the people.
Churchill said that faced with the choice between Europe and the open sea, we should always choose the open sea, and that the best argument against Democracy was a five-minute chat with a voter.
My vote carries the same weight as the most racist ignoramus in the village, which may be why, when striving for our highest common factor, we always get left with our lowest common multiple.
It's a way of confounding our best intentions, divide and rule - also known as 'Democracy.'
It takes a great deal of thought, and not a little self-confidence to decide to stand outside this political pantomime. The necessary mindset is not easily acquired, it is so much easier to follow the flock.
Rather than trying to change the world, which is beyond our control, we need, as a nation and as individuals, to change ourselves -- the only bit of the world that we do (allegedly) control.
Because we're making a right ******* of this ...
Volvo.
Since the sixties, I've lived, worked and travelled in over a dozen countries, and been treated very well on the whole, and often meeting with unimaginable hospitality. The only racism I've encountered was from a Dutch cop, who got a swift ticking off from his boss.
Given the appalling standard of general education in our country, and the insularity fostered by the media, how can I possibly expect most of my village to view the world as I do -- an exciting place full of amazing people -- and give a welcome of the sort that I currently experience in Spain?
Instead they fear an imaginary foe, where they could see a kindred spirit beneath the surface appearance.
The lack of housing, employment and proper healthcare are used as a stick to beat immigrants with, when it should be directed at the fat backsides of our politicians who cannot and will not serve the interests of the people.
Churchill said that faced with the choice between Europe and the open sea, we should always choose the open sea, and that the best argument against Democracy was a five-minute chat with a voter.
My vote carries the same weight as the most racist ignoramus in the village, which may be why, when striving for our highest common factor, we always get left with our lowest common multiple.
It's a way of confounding our best intentions, divide and rule - also known as 'Democracy.'
It takes a great deal of thought, and not a little self-confidence to decide to stand outside this political pantomime. The necessary mindset is not easily acquired, it is so much easier to follow the flock.
Rather than trying to change the world, which is beyond our control, we need, as a nation and as individuals, to change ourselves -- the only bit of the world that we do (allegedly) control.
Because we're making a right ******* of this ...
Volvo.
Sorry but though well presented this is no more than misleading propaganda from a long time critic of the EU, misrepresenting the facts.
The problem is that the statement we do not have the right to veto EU is a lie!
"The EU has a number of institutions involved in taking decisions and making EU laws that apply to the UK. The UK is represented in, or able to nominate members to, all of them. The EU can only make laws within the rules set out in the EU Treaties. These provide different mechanisms for agreeing different types of laws. The UK has a say and promotes the UK’s national interest. Some core principles govern how EU law applies in the UK and in other Member States. But the UK has also negotiated a number of exceptions that give it a special position within the EU."
Source
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/516501/Rights_and_obligations_of_European_Union_membership_web_version.pdf
So where we want to, it is possible to veto EU laws applying to us.
The Spectator blog is in itself just another misleading propaganda piece pretending to be an even handed report.
Which it clearly isnt, is it?
Immigration is still the biggest factor that has a bearing on which way the vote will go.
People see or perceive an out of control system and believe that being in the EU is a contributing factor to the lack of control. When people have raised concerns, instead of addressing the concerns, they have been called biggots, racists and other such insults. Maybe this is because there is no logical answer.
People are primarily concerned about a lack of affordable housing and overstretched services and consider a rapidly rising population to be causing this to happen. It's nothing to do with race, colour of skin, religion or country of origin. It's just a numbers issue.
Controlling immigration is seen as something worth trying in an effort to slow the rate of population expansion in the UK. They see the EU as failing them in this regard.
Whether leaving the EU will achieve anything is open to debate, but I think it will happen and it will happen because the immigration question has tried to be silenced with vile insults. This only strengthens people's resolve.
People see or perceive an out of control system and believe that being in the EU is a contributing factor to the lack of control. When people have raised concerns, instead of addressing the concerns, they have been called biggots, racists and other such insults. Maybe this is because there is no logical answer.
People are primarily concerned about a lack of affordable housing and overstretched services and consider a rapidly rising population to be causing this to happen. It's nothing to do with race, colour of skin, religion or country of origin. It's just a numbers issue.
Controlling immigration is seen as something worth trying in an effort to slow the rate of population expansion in the UK. They see the EU as failing them in this regard.
Whether leaving the EU will achieve anything is open to debate, but I think it will happen and it will happen because the immigration question has tried to be silenced with vile insults. This only strengthens people's resolve.
As you observe many people see these issues as Crises, and yet the public have applauded military action in the middle east that has aggravated the movement of peoples in our direction,
So it is a crisis, that cannot be limited to this country, can it?
Lets examine the situation regarding EU response to said crises
"2.5 The European Council brings together the heads of state or government from the 28 EU Member States, including the UK Prime Minister. It takes strategic decisions on the EU’s overall direction and on top priorities, such as the response to crises. The European Council agrees most issues by consensus, which means the UK and each Member State has a veto over what is agreed."
Perhaps the question should be asked why OUR Government isn't banging away at the problem with the European Council?
That represents a bigger failing for our Government than the EU.
I agree it's one of the biggest and possibly the biggest issue influencing votes Tillson.
But unfortunately, when I've seen people in the street being questioned about where they stand on this, it's often abundantly clear that they just don't like foreigners in "our" country or "my" town.
To illustrate I like to cite the past case of a Welsh town where the people took to the streets in a march to protest against all the immigrants flooding their town.
It transpired that in this town of some 40,000 inhabitants, 22 immigrants had moved in.
What do we call that, bigotry, racism, selfishness or what, when it's so clear that they are personally unaffected by immigration, as is often the case elsewhere?
I can't see remain ever winning the immigration argument. The bookies' Brexit swingometer moved from 38% 62% to 42% 58% after the new polls put leave 6-7 points ahead this morning. It now swung back to 38% 62% this afternoon. It could well signal that Labour is getting through their core voters.
I think one of the major problems about immigration is the fact that the British people were never given any say in it. It being decided by Blair and co, even admitting that they wanted to change the country. Any sensible debate or questioning was then stifled with people being labeled as racist for even raising it. I think this led to a lot of resentment particularly among older people, and is possibly at the root of a lot of attitudes that are prevalent at the moment.
our governing politicians can't bring themselves to be honest with people who vote for them. Immigrants are their solution to aging population and shortage of workers in construction, social care, hospitality and agriculture. It's easier to blame someone else. It used to be immigrants from Pakistan, now it's Poles and Romanians.
Then they wonder why people turn to alternatives such as UKIP who they perceive to be more honest??
I think our politicians have always known the danger but they believe in their own gameplan, assuming that people aren't stupid enough to vote for lower house prices or higher inflation until the people call their bluff. I still think more than 5% of Brexiters will hold their nose in the poll booth and change their mind. The problem is I don't think a government after Brexit can do any better than the current lot. We'll end up with lower house prices, higher inflation and the same immigration because to reduce immigration, we have to do more by ourselves and pay higher taxes.
How can anyone perceive UKIP as being honest? they got elected to REPRESENT US in the EU parliament and simply set out to wreck it, enjoying the expenses and perks and being notably absent when there was any work to be done from which we might benefit.
They were in fact doing our cause unnecessary damage and getting paid handsomely to do so.
How can anyone perceive any politicians to be honest. I didn't say they were right
RIP Jo Cox MP
Sadly, my worst fears about what happens when fascists like Farage, IDS, Gove and Johnson gain some followers through being given the oxygen of favourable publicity from their friends in the media, have all come true today. When these monsters are allowed to preach their poisonous message, all the other extreme right fanatics, racists and psychopaths gain credence and believe they have justification or indeed, a duty, to flex their muscles or worse.
The rise of the far right has been evident for some time and while some may regard today's murder of Jo Cox MP as a one-off act by a deranged madman, I fear that may be to underplay the potential of what is going on. Intelligent people will have seen the signs long ago that a grass-roots fascist movement was beginning to emerge in the UK and in the traditional fascist manner, they have been spreading their message of hatred, racism, bigotry and intolerance, while attempting to disguise their real agenda through the use of expressions such as, 'patriotic duty/sovereignty' and 'securing our borders' and the like, all diversions that appeal to the thickos and thugs.
Fascism never changes; those with sufficient knowledge, (or experience!) of history and geography will be well aware of the similarities between the rhetoric of the 'Brexit' spokespersons and that of the 1930s Nazi party leaders in Germany. If not checked, the fascists very quickly seek to gain power and make no mistake, the only power they are interested in is of the absolute variety. They rise to power by creating fear, identifying an enemy that everyone will need to also hate or risk being regarded as unpatriotic, perhaps even an enemy of the state. I won't go on but these are dangerous times as Jo Cox discovered today yet people are prepared to vote in the manner desired by the fascist movement and that involves a journey into the unknown, led by a group of deranged, bought politicians, bankrolled by a collection of fund managers.
The words of Jo Cox's widowed husband are worth listening to:
Tom
Sadly, my worst fears about what happens when fascists like Farage, IDS, Gove and Johnson gain some followers through being given the oxygen of favourable publicity from their friends in the media, have all come true today. When these monsters are allowed to preach their poisonous message, all the other extreme right fanatics, racists and psychopaths gain credence and believe they have justification or indeed, a duty, to flex their muscles or worse.
The rise of the far right has been evident for some time and while some may regard today's murder of Jo Cox MP as a one-off act by a deranged madman, I fear that may be to underplay the potential of what is going on. Intelligent people will have seen the signs long ago that a grass-roots fascist movement was beginning to emerge in the UK and in the traditional fascist manner, they have been spreading their message of hatred, racism, bigotry and intolerance, while attempting to disguise their real agenda through the use of expressions such as, 'patriotic duty/sovereignty' and 'securing our borders' and the like, all diversions that appeal to the thickos and thugs.
Fascism never changes; those with sufficient knowledge, (or experience!) of history and geography will be well aware of the similarities between the rhetoric of the 'Brexit' spokespersons and that of the 1930s Nazi party leaders in Germany. If not checked, the fascists very quickly seek to gain power and make no mistake, the only power they are interested in is of the absolute variety. They rise to power by creating fear, identifying an enemy that everyone will need to also hate or risk being regarded as unpatriotic, perhaps even an enemy of the state. I won't go on but these are dangerous times as Jo Cox discovered today yet people are prepared to vote in the manner desired by the fascist movement and that involves a journey into the unknown, led by a group of deranged, bought politicians, bankrolled by a collection of fund managers.
The words of Jo Cox's widowed husband are worth listening to:
Tom
I’m sorry Tom but what you have written is grotesque. When I first heard the terrible news on the radio and I after I had digested what had happened, my thoughts turned to the EU referendum. I wondered if anyone could sink low enough to suggest that the poor woman’s cold blooded murder was in some way linked with those who support the EU Exit campaign. I dismissed this notion on the basis that no one anywhere could be so insensitive, callous or stupid to suggest such a thing. It appears that I was wrong.
From what I have seen and heard on the news, it is likely that the killer will be found to have far right ideals and leanings, possible be suffering from a mental illness too. However, nothing is certain and the investigation will be in it’s very early stages and could progress in an unexpected direction. Your attempts to associate this terrible event with Nigel Farage, Ian Duncan Smith and Boris Johnson are nothing short of evil. What is particularly revolting is the eagerness with which you capitalise on the death of this poor woman and convert it into a form of currency and then use it to try and buy the silence of those who have a different point of view to yourself.
What you have written, is nasty, spiteful, malice fuelled nonsense and you should feel a sense of deep shame for posting it.
I am disappointed at his leaping to a conclusion as there is insufficient cause and effect to be so certain, but what words can I use to explain your reaction?
"I wondered if anyone could sink low enough to suggest that the poor woman’s cold blooded murder was in some way linked with those who support the EU Exit campaign."
Actually the Police did that with the details they gave of the attacker, did they not?
And as to the assertion
"What is particularly revolting is the eagerness with which you capitalise on the death of this poor woman and convert it into a form of currency and then use it to try and buy the silence of those who have a different point of view to yourself."
It certainly didn't work in your case did it? and you went ahead and did the very thing you complained about.
We have to hope that this tragic incident is only an isolated one, don't we? and overreaction to it is to be avoided like the plague.
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