Old groaner
What are you for, not what are you against?
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
What are you for, not what are you against?
Quite simply an end to the country being run for the benefit of the London Financial Bubble, and since having lived in a society before the EU that was quite happy to treat workers as a necessary evil towards a fairer society, which is what we have been working towards since we joined the EU.
Let me give you a real world example of the world before then which might help.
I started work and on my first day and was walked round the factory and we came across ten dirty stretchers in a row behind the foundry.
"Why have these been left here?" I asked, "Well when it's summer men pass out from the heat and fumes, so we carry em out here, chuck a bucket of water over them, and when they come round, they go back in and start work again, cause they're on piece work."
Walking through the machine shop none of the machines had any form of guards and I was warned about walking too close to the Gandy belt drives from the layshafts in the roof that powered them.
"When one of 'em goes, it comes down to the floor like a whip, you don't want to be under it when that happens."
So we came to the shop where I would work, "There you are lad, sit yourself down. " I remarked this stuff is soft, what is it?" "Asbestos lad, we used it between the boiler sections to seal em, good stuff soft as wool and harmless too."
On the rare occasion men reached retirement age (most didn't) we had a big party.
We got two weeks annual unpaid Holiday , only sick pay was from "The Foresters" benevolent club (You paid in a weekly contribution)and the company could fire you on the spot if the fancy took them.
You came onto full wages at age 25 by the way , and as luck would have it the year i reached 25 they changed the rules so you got full pay at 21 (but no back pay for us of course)
Then came the day of the EU and suddenly no more Asbestos, safety guards fitted to machines, noise toxic fumes and dust levels controlled and blokes actually started reaching retirement age as a matter of course.And of course the age was reduced to get full pay.
What am I for? Not letting fools throw away all the progress we have made so that they can wave silly flags and think themselves patriotic.
Does that answer your question?
Now answer a question for me, what do you really want, and what is so compelling that you want to throw away the advantages, we have gained ,because rest assured they will disappear when times get hard, or are you assuming losing the huge EU market and having to compete with them will be plain sailing, because the Mogul owned press and two of the chief Liars in the Tory party tell you so?
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you have to be mad to trade the EU for the US.
My children have worked in the US and the EU. Totally different.
My children have worked in the US and the EU. Totally different.
So your view of eurotopia is based on a private event 55 years ago ???
Yes h&s was not important but why assume it was better in Europe ?
This is a microcosm of forum in general. Folk express opinions and then they get blockbustered by same folk , not expressing their own opinion but knocking folk willing to express theirs.
Flecc, groaner and trex can post more long winded rambling posts but you will not change folks opinions.
Europe as a whole is in a far worse state than uk. I want out.end of.
And,BTW I,m not trying to change any others people,s opinions, put them down or anything similar. I don't know enough about it and cant predict future, but nor can anyone else. Nobody knows exactly what will happen either way no matter what folk claim.
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I haven't posted to change set opinions. As the thread title suggests, I've posted both facts and some of my opinions related to those facts to help the many undecided make up their minds.
In this issue those who've decided were never going to change their minds.
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Remain (51% vs 49%) edges ahead, the Pound rose 1 cent against the US dollar this morning. The bookies still reckon that remain has 80% probability to win.
I would agree with that prognosis unfortunately, but it is amazing how well the out campaign has done considering they are up against the whole establishment. Which only goes to show that there are real issues in Europe that need addressing
As Donald Tusk quite rightly recognised the EU needs to recognise valid concerns and modify the approach. I am not optimistic about that though, they will see a yes to stay vote as affirmation and just carry on as is. Then we just wait for the next crisis to hit, of which their are many possibilities as discussed or worse the European political landscape will just deteriorate with the fringe parties, exactly what Europe was supposed to stand against
In case of a Brexit vote after all, how democratic of the Conservatives to suggest to just stall it through government, with the support of the rest of parties no doubt
So no need even for EU to announce we got the wrong answer, please try again, or even for renegotiations on reform to start.
Do all the stay people REALLY understand what they are losing here? Once lost never recovered.
By the way I have really enjoyed this thread. I would recommend to anyone that wants to understand the issues and viewpoints to join the frey. Discussing face to face is somewhat difficult, but on line OK, and pleased that everyone has respected others views it seems
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I've been keeping an eye on most of the movers and shakers in the bike industry to try to get a feeling of their thoughts and also possibly learn a few things in case I'm missing a trick.
Read this today from one of the guys who I respect in the industry.
"So the Brexit uncertainty has caused the pound to dive against the euro and dollar today. This nonsense is having real economic affects now. The details of the whole issue are hugely complex and it's ridiculous we get to vote on it. We have a representative democracy where we pick someone to go and make decisions on complex issues like this on our behalf and it's no surprise that MPs who want to stay in outnumber the leavers by 3:1 Referendums are for simple issues that are easily understandable. This isn't one of them. The implications of in/out go far beyond immigration and yet it seems the bulk of the brexiters are voting on this naive and misleading issue alone. It's nuts and scary."
I agree that there are some things we should leave in the hands of the people we essentially employ to deal with this stuff. Giving "us" the vote on something the vast majority of us don't understand the consequences of is a problem, because people generally vote on what would benefit them. If we have a referendum on reducing TAX, I think you'd find most would vote to pay less tax, but that doesn't mean its a good thing. Its just that by our very nature we our selfish.
He also said this which again I cant argue with.
"And where did this silly idea of a referendum come from? From a minority of uber right wing tories that threatened to defect to ukip unless Cameron gave them the ball. A minority he desperately needed to keep on side if he was to have a chance of winning the last election. Our democracy has been played. Cameron pandered to a minority of racist MPs in order to grasp power. Power he's about to lose if the kippers get their dream result. What a total *** up!"
Read this today from one of the guys who I respect in the industry.
"So the Brexit uncertainty has caused the pound to dive against the euro and dollar today. This nonsense is having real economic affects now. The details of the whole issue are hugely complex and it's ridiculous we get to vote on it. We have a representative democracy where we pick someone to go and make decisions on complex issues like this on our behalf and it's no surprise that MPs who want to stay in outnumber the leavers by 3:1 Referendums are for simple issues that are easily understandable. This isn't one of them. The implications of in/out go far beyond immigration and yet it seems the bulk of the brexiters are voting on this naive and misleading issue alone. It's nuts and scary."
I agree that there are some things we should leave in the hands of the people we essentially employ to deal with this stuff. Giving "us" the vote on something the vast majority of us don't understand the consequences of is a problem, because people generally vote on what would benefit them. If we have a referendum on reducing TAX, I think you'd find most would vote to pay less tax, but that doesn't mean its a good thing. Its just that by our very nature we our selfish.
He also said this which again I cant argue with.
"And where did this silly idea of a referendum come from? From a minority of uber right wing tories that threatened to defect to ukip unless Cameron gave them the ball. A minority he desperately needed to keep on side if he was to have a chance of winning the last election. Our democracy has been played. Cameron pandered to a minority of racist MPs in order to grasp power. Power he's about to lose if the kippers get their dream result. What a total *** up!"
Indeed, though Brexit had one very powerful issue on their side, immigration. That alone was a big advantage, but the coincidence of the mass Syrian migration and others jumping on their bandwagon has been manna from heaven for the out campaign.
It's extraordinary good luck.
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I,ve felt from start its a foredrawn conclusion we will be staying by fair means or fowl, but either way its given folk chance to at least consider problems within eu. ( and uk if we do leave)
I do think its almost impossible to consider stay/ leave without bringing in your own prejudices/grievances/ vested interest.( I,ve tried not to, I,m sure Brexit would devalue property in France further) We are all products of circumstance.
What has been really disheartening is the slant/ spin used by both sides. Its made a difficult decision more so. We,ve not even had impartiality from BBC, but then again we never do.
I,ve also found it annoying when such as Matt Damon offer their wisdom ! ( Yes he went to Marseille to film Bourne,but somehow thinks that gives him an insight we all lack. Trouble is he probably has more influence than knowledgeable reporters / journalists..
Ahwell. Still voting out..but since even I we leave...we wont on todays news. So probably a wasted vote.
Either way, our popularity in eu will have dropped, if it can any more.
I do think its almost impossible to consider stay/ leave without bringing in your own prejudices/grievances/ vested interest.( I,ve tried not to, I,m sure Brexit would devalue property in France further) We are all products of circumstance.
What has been really disheartening is the slant/ spin used by both sides. Its made a difficult decision more so. We,ve not even had impartiality from BBC, but then again we never do.
I,ve also found it annoying when such as Matt Damon offer their wisdom ! ( Yes he went to Marseille to film Bourne,but somehow thinks that gives him an insight we all lack. Trouble is he probably has more influence than knowledgeable reporters / journalists..
Ahwell. Still voting out..but since even I we leave...we wont on todays news. So probably a wasted vote.
Either way, our popularity in eu will have dropped, if it can any more.
I've tended to feel the same, but if the turnout is low as it might very well be, it could go either way. With the polls so close, it looks increasingly that a few undecideds making up their minds at the last minute could control the result. The final 24 hours of campaigning will be crucial.
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My view of Europe is based on Experience of how this country was run for the benefit of business and to hell with the lives and safety of the workers.
None of the improvements we have had can be blamed on the employers or the Conservatives or their "B" team AKA New Labour. All positive change has come out of the EU, but as you correctly point out it is unlikely that ypur opinion will change, how can it when you haven't had the same path through life?
As to predicting the future? well now if you don't have enough faith in your own experiences let the Press make your mind up for you, most will.
Interesting that you dismiss our "long winded rambling posts" far easier than having an rational argument to contradict them isn't it?
"Folk express opinions and then they get blockbustered by same folk , not expressing their own opinion but knocking folk willing to express theirs."
Apparently anything more that a few words is "Blockbustering"
That is one of the problems of being a member of the older generation, for some unaccountable reason the younger one judges itself too wise to benefit from listening to us when we try to explain our point of view.
And the last thing they will tolerate is being asked to justify their arguments.
Why not? I wonder, is it because they can't or don't want to?
Oddly I tend to believe that the public will opt for Brexit, but then perhaps I lack faith that common sense will prevail, as previous experience suggests otherwise.
Actually it may surprise you to learn that I expect a Brexit win, despite the fact I find the prospect appallingly stupid.
And on your own heads be it!
Knowing how pointless the effort has been, I have tried to point out the error is this choice, but feel it is almost inevitable.
And I shall still vote remain in the hope that sanity will prevail.