Very true and that is why there will be no change if we come out of the EU and have a Tory Government, will there?
Brexit, for once some facts.
- Thread starter flecc
- Start date
Presumably you aren't aware of the gross lies he utters?
As a television documentary exposed but many of us knew already, he is one of the most disreputable and dishonest people we've ever suffered, both in civil life and as a politician.
Sadly there are many people who are taken in by what is apparently likeable buffoonery. Little do they realise that it's the carefully calculated deceit of a highly intelligent self-seeking man. Boris Johnson has throughout life always acted in the interests of one thing, Boris Johnson. He clearly has contempt for everyone else.
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Wasn't it Tony Blair who decided that cheap labour from Europe was what the UK needed. I seem to remember him saying that they would not take any jobs that locals could do. That was obviously a blatant lie but typical of him.
The bosses will always go for cheaper labour if it is available, which was exactly the intention of the policy
policy or policies that as a country we voted for. It seems we don't accept the inconveniences that come with the advantages.
that, imho, is the crux of almost all of the brexit argument - forever self interest (my money, my benefits, my hospital place, my school place, me, me, me, let vulnerable migrants drown, what do i get from europe?). it's curious the unashamed entitlement of it all.
That could be levelled at individuals on both sides of argument. You really think Cameron and his cronies don't have self interest at heart ? Very naive if so.
Just because one pro Brexit poster makes negative comments about migrant safety/ welfare does not mean all people wanting out think the same.
I want out ( I think ???) but want more help available for migrants/ asylum seekers. The two are not mutually exclusive, and probably not even related.
Throughout history there have been refugees.
Polls are running 50/50 at moment, to dismiss half population's beliefs because you think they are selfish is missing the real debate behind people's reasoning.
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Often said by those that are not at the bottom of the pile looking up and wondering.. why me?
half the population don't want the inconveniences, that's for sure, but how many of them will hesitate before ticking the leave box in the poll booths? I guess may be more than 5%.
In truth, very few of us pensioners are personally suffering any inconvenience of the things that Brexiters are campaigning on: poorly paid jobs, high property prices, schools are full and queues at A&E.
In truth, very few of us pensioners are personally suffering any inconvenience of the things that Brexiters are campaigning on: poorly paid jobs, high property prices, schools are full and queues at A&E.
I read this last night, I can't find who wrote it, but its spot on in my eyes:
"I have been listening to the various arguments about this idiotic and damaging referendum for weeks now. All of them focus on personal advantage and disadvantage. Both camps want to appeal to the venal, the self serving, "You will all be better/worse off in/out of the EU". Remain suggests leaving to be economic and security suicide, while Biscuit merely seem to be asking 'what did the Romans ever do for us?'.
This debate is being conducted in the usual schoolyard manner we have come to expect of our ‘leaders’. And there is so little to be said for "Brexit", a word as ugly and false as the barely disguised xenophobia it truly represents, that its supporters are reduced to yelling "That's not fair you're just trying to scare us!" every time some eminently respectable and sober individual or organisation (Mark Carney, Obama, the OFS, the IMF, the head of the NHS... the list goes on and on) remarks that in their considered opinion leaving the EU carries risks. Since Biscuit have obviously lost the economic argument they're now just banging on about immigration - “comin' over 'ere taking our jobs” - an appeal to the most base and unattractive of all our lamentable small island prejudices.
But we are not merely a small island, we are (even though we enjoy denigrating our postwar, post imperial state) one of the richest, most powerful and influential nations on the planet. Along with France and Germany we underpin European stability. Our withdrawal from Europe would be deeply resented by every other state within the bloc, and justifiably so, as the whole would be immeasurably weakened, a state of affairs which should please no one bar a few jingoistic right-wingers and Vladimir Putin. Following Biscuit, right wing nationalist parties in other member states would clamour for independence too, their poisonous bitter protest rooted (as all rightist arguments are), on the theory that their unhappiness/lack of employment/poverty/woeful education/sexual frustration must all be someone else's fault. We will see violence and stupidity rampant and power hungry men merrily abandoning what little decency they once had to become the local Trump-u-like.
Meanwhile, Boris Biscuit Barrel 'La Trumpa' Johnson makes scandalous comparisons to the Third Reich (please be assured dear reader that labour camps, racial cataloging, slave nations and state sponsored euthanasia for the disadvantaged are not part of any one's plan for the future of the EU), and David Cameron suggests that your holiday to the Costa del Sol might cost a few extra hundred quid if we leave. Johnson is unforgivable, and call me Dave may be exaggerating. But so what? What if we stay and your holiday still gets more expensive? (it probably should by the way), and we should stay anyway.
I've been working for a few weeks in Lithuania this year (Vilnius is very lovely, you should visit). They of course secured freedom from the crumbling Soviet Empire in 1991; that’s 25 years ago, like yesterday. They were the first Soviet satellite to secede, Russian tanks ran over celebrating Lithuanians as they withdrew, peaceful people forming human shields before buildings of national importance were shot while they sung. Gorbachev received the Nobel peace prize that year. The Lithuanians are terrified of the Russians returning.
Look at a map of Europe in 1975 - Spain is a fascist dictatorship, Portugal is just starting to recover from the 26 year rule of Salazar - another fascist. Poland, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria are all soviet satellites independent only in name. You won’t even see the Baltic states on the map, they are entirely subsumed by the USSR. A short time later,15 years, these countries start to reappear, looking west for support, desperate to reestablish autonomy and national identity, to trade and to travel freely - you know; the stuff we’ve all been enjoying for half a century.
Now the EU extends from the Baltic to the Mediterranean, from Ireland to Greece, that's a big WOW! a cause for great celebration. France and Germany are our close friends, no longer bitter enemies.
Bulgarians and Romanians coming here to work is a bloody triumph. These are not a bunch of ‘gypos’ coming here to commit criminal acts and live off benefits, they are people freed from ghastly dictatorships who have, for a just a few short years, been able to enjoy something like freedom and affluence.
This is what the EU is for, this is why it’s the most forward thinking and civilised development in postwar history; a secular, democratic, tolerant, inclusive federation of mutually supportive states.
And we are threatening to break it up? It’s a f***** disgrace."
"I have been listening to the various arguments about this idiotic and damaging referendum for weeks now. All of them focus on personal advantage and disadvantage. Both camps want to appeal to the venal, the self serving, "You will all be better/worse off in/out of the EU". Remain suggests leaving to be economic and security suicide, while Biscuit merely seem to be asking 'what did the Romans ever do for us?'.
This debate is being conducted in the usual schoolyard manner we have come to expect of our ‘leaders’. And there is so little to be said for "Brexit", a word as ugly and false as the barely disguised xenophobia it truly represents, that its supporters are reduced to yelling "That's not fair you're just trying to scare us!" every time some eminently respectable and sober individual or organisation (Mark Carney, Obama, the OFS, the IMF, the head of the NHS... the list goes on and on) remarks that in their considered opinion leaving the EU carries risks. Since Biscuit have obviously lost the economic argument they're now just banging on about immigration - “comin' over 'ere taking our jobs” - an appeal to the most base and unattractive of all our lamentable small island prejudices.
But we are not merely a small island, we are (even though we enjoy denigrating our postwar, post imperial state) one of the richest, most powerful and influential nations on the planet. Along with France and Germany we underpin European stability. Our withdrawal from Europe would be deeply resented by every other state within the bloc, and justifiably so, as the whole would be immeasurably weakened, a state of affairs which should please no one bar a few jingoistic right-wingers and Vladimir Putin. Following Biscuit, right wing nationalist parties in other member states would clamour for independence too, their poisonous bitter protest rooted (as all rightist arguments are), on the theory that their unhappiness/lack of employment/poverty/woeful education/sexual frustration must all be someone else's fault. We will see violence and stupidity rampant and power hungry men merrily abandoning what little decency they once had to become the local Trump-u-like.
Meanwhile, Boris Biscuit Barrel 'La Trumpa' Johnson makes scandalous comparisons to the Third Reich (please be assured dear reader that labour camps, racial cataloging, slave nations and state sponsored euthanasia for the disadvantaged are not part of any one's plan for the future of the EU), and David Cameron suggests that your holiday to the Costa del Sol might cost a few extra hundred quid if we leave. Johnson is unforgivable, and call me Dave may be exaggerating. But so what? What if we stay and your holiday still gets more expensive? (it probably should by the way), and we should stay anyway.
I've been working for a few weeks in Lithuania this year (Vilnius is very lovely, you should visit). They of course secured freedom from the crumbling Soviet Empire in 1991; that’s 25 years ago, like yesterday. They were the first Soviet satellite to secede, Russian tanks ran over celebrating Lithuanians as they withdrew, peaceful people forming human shields before buildings of national importance were shot while they sung. Gorbachev received the Nobel peace prize that year. The Lithuanians are terrified of the Russians returning.
Look at a map of Europe in 1975 - Spain is a fascist dictatorship, Portugal is just starting to recover from the 26 year rule of Salazar - another fascist. Poland, East Germany, Yugoslavia, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria are all soviet satellites independent only in name. You won’t even see the Baltic states on the map, they are entirely subsumed by the USSR. A short time later,15 years, these countries start to reappear, looking west for support, desperate to reestablish autonomy and national identity, to trade and to travel freely - you know; the stuff we’ve all been enjoying for half a century.
Now the EU extends from the Baltic to the Mediterranean, from Ireland to Greece, that's a big WOW! a cause for great celebration. France and Germany are our close friends, no longer bitter enemies.
Bulgarians and Romanians coming here to work is a bloody triumph. These are not a bunch of ‘gypos’ coming here to commit criminal acts and live off benefits, they are people freed from ghastly dictatorships who have, for a just a few short years, been able to enjoy something like freedom and affluence.
This is what the EU is for, this is why it’s the most forward thinking and civilised development in postwar history; a secular, democratic, tolerant, inclusive federation of mutually supportive states.
And we are threatening to break it up? It’s a f***** disgrace."
How are the votes to be counted, is it by UK constituency?
If it is very close would there could be local recounts or will it only be a recount on the overall total vote?
If it is very close would there could be local recounts or will it only be a recount on the overall total vote?
Not by constituencies.
votes are counted locally then toted up by regions.
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/electoral-administrator/eu-referendum
votes are counted locally then toted up by regions.
http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/i-am-a/electoral-administrator/eu-referendum
Clever move sending voting papers to non nationals living here.
The arguments so far have been largely based on Economic and immigration considerations, most of what has been said on these is bogus propaganda, from both sides and misses the real problem with Europe. It is NOT WORKING, it is failing its citizens, (unemployment rates of the under 25's of 50%?) it is not listening to its citizens. (we are all just extremists?) Its structures on the one hand are incapable of providing solutions (Greece, Economy, refugee crisis, unbalanced migration) and on the other hand the non elected elite are able to fill the vacuum with their own agenda for a federal future (without having to answer the people at all). the people wielding the power are not at all interested in reform and do not see the need (re Camerons remarkable re-negotiation), and I believe it cannot survive, with or without Brexit
If you want that vote stay, if you don't vote leave
If you want that vote stay, if you don't vote leave
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I don't recall seeing anything in Labours manifesto about flooding the country with cheap immigrant labour???
I see no such problem, since Germany, The Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Austria are all succeeding within the EU and its structures. Even here in the UK we're doing well in many respects within our membership.
You've missed the point that each country within the EU needs to play its part to succeed, the EU can't do it all, it can only provide a framework.
Since Germany has become the leading economic and environmental nation that it is, clearly the EU is not materially impeding it. They live under exactly the same rules as the rest of the 27 countries, so those countries that fail have only themselves to blame. The gross irresponsibility of successive Greek administrations and the economic mess they are in is clear enough proof of that.
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Saw something yesterday. Apparently the only continent with a growth rate lower than Europe is Antarctica.