Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Welcome indeed and many thanks.

Much as I applaud Winston Churchill and his ideas for a United States of Europe, time has, of course, marched on and what may well have fitted the world as he saw it at the time – things change, often for the worst. People adapt, take advantage perhaps and to a point no one seems to have, or accept personal responsibility anymore, preferring instead to rely on the state. Personally, I don’t like that and I suppose that makes me both a conservative, with a small ‘c’ and perhaps why I believe that we are better out of the EU.

Jacob Rees-Mogg was mentioned earlier in the thread. Let me offer a recent insight to the man. This is what he said, in black and white.

Writing about oneself is boring, but ideas are not. The question for Conservatives is “What do we want to propose to the electorate and how can we deliver it?” The last election campaign was too managerial and lacked inspiration. An effective manifesto does not need a great list of specific promises, it must instead set out a principled foundation on which each policy may be built.

Unlike the socialist, the Conservative believes that society is built from the bottom up, not the top down. Individuals come together to form families, communities and nations. The instruments of government are there to serve not to command. The random mass of individual decisions will better suit the comfort of the nation than the careful direction of resources from Whitehall. I am not the first to point out that, every day in London, 10 million lunches are served without the need for ministerial involvement.

It follows from this view that the state is there to enable people to lead the lives they wish as far as possible without conflicting with their neighbours. Policy decisions flow from this and it is the moral basis for what the government does. It is interested in what people can do, rather than what they are unable to do, and this has underpinned Iain Duncan Smith’s disability reforms, which seek to find out what a disabled person is capable of doing, rather than assuming that the only response to disability is money.

In terms of taxation, the view that individuals matter is a reminder that the money belongs to a specific person, and the state may only take what it needs. Generally, people will spend their own money more effectively than the government and there is no money at all, except for that earned in the private sector. Public sector workers may pay tax, but that merely circulates money between departments; tax paid by NHS workers comes and goes from the consolidated fund with some administrative expense in between.

In addition to low taxation being right in terms of ownership, it is also better economically. The recent cut in corporation tax, one of George Osborne’s most successful policies, has more than doubled the tax received. This has helped businesses afford to invest and employ people leading to a stronger economy and allowing the Government more easily to finance its expenditure. This example ought to be applied to income tax and, as a matter of urgency, to stamp duty.

Going with the grain of what people want is not only important in terms of taxation. The Grenfell Tower was not created because people chose to live in tower blocks, but because, from the Second World War onward, officialdom wanted tower blocks – despite opinion surveys consistently showing that the overwhelmingly majority of people want to live in houses with gardens.

But the state thought it knew best. Regrettably some Conservatives went along with this, though tower blocks are the physical embodiment of socialism. Would it not be better to pull them down, build houses, even if this requires more space, which it often does not, and then sell them at a discount to the current occupants of tower blocks? It would help people have what they want, and reinvigorate home ownership, which creates a stable society but also meets a natural, almost fundamental, human ambition.

As with tower blocks, so with energy policy It is striking how wrong the big state can be. It was the “Nanny knows best” approach that led to the scandal over diesel emissions. To risk public health today, for a carbon dioxide policy made irrelevant by emerging markets was the worst sort of political grandstanding. Similarly, the tariffs on Chinese solar panels put up the cost of energy subsidies at the expense of the poorest in the land. Meanwhile, the market is providing cleaner energy; in the United States, renewable energy is growing rapidly as it becomes more economic, and shale gas has helped reduce emissions significantly. Conservatives should recognise that individual ingenuity and business acumen do better than central planning.

Conservatives ought to back the free market, but that is not the same as big business. We must tackle monopolies. Big business loves regulation – and incidentally the European Union – because it keeps out competition, maintains high prices and reduces the power of the individual consumer. The role of the state here is to back the customer, not the producer. In some areas this is easy: supermarkets are highly competitive and need little interference. The monopolists tend to have high levels of capital invested, and many customers.

As a constituency MP, the worst organisation I deal with is BT, but it is not alone as a scarcely competent monopolist. The energy companies have a degree of arrogance towards the customers, while both banks and insurance firms penalise loyalty and the BBC writes eye-wateringly rude letters to people who do not own a television, assuming that they must be crooks. This is not about price caps, but about tilting the scales back towards the individual: if a company can penalise me for not paying on time, I ought to be able to fine it for sending out the wrong bill.

Each of us wants to improve our own standard of living and to see our children better off than we are. This is best done by freeing individuals to maximise their own successes through government that has confidence in their capacities, which trusts the people.

This is the kind of society that I want to live in. I certainly don’t expect that Jacob is the man to deliver it, or at least not in person and I know for sure that JC won’t even get close. He even thinks that the EU is right-wing!

So, yes, I want out and sincerely believe that given a few years it will prove to have been the best decision we have made in many a year. That said it would be so much better if we could at least provide a united front to the negotiations instead of playing politics.
This by the way is the man with an atrocious voting record of opposing any aid the the needy and helpless.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926/jacob_rees-mogg/north_east_somerset/votes?policy=welfare

A remarkable record even for a Conservative with a big C
His Financial "doings" how about
This
MP Jacob Rees-Mogg 'NOT happy with 7-figure bonus' despite being worth at least £100million"


This from the Company he heads, the Old Etonian still keeps a keen eye on the financial world and takes a monthly dividend of £11,730 from SCM.

Combined with his parliamentary salary, it means he takes home at least £216,000 a year.

Frankly you need to have a better Horse to bet on than this Donkey, , and when we are out of the EU clowns like this highly evolved parasite will be writing the laws that apply to the poor people they despise.

Come on now, surely you can do better than quote the weasel words of an unscrupulous villain like this man?
Would you like me to go through the garbage he wrote and destroy it line by line?
let's take his remarks about diesel fuel as an example.
Gordon Brown promoted the switch on 2001 and this wasn't opposed by the Torys as the Kyoto accord was worrying parliament.
. Government, industry and science united to sell us the dream: cars running on diesel would help us cut our CO2 emissions as we eased smoothly into a new eco-friendly age.
Governments, meanwhile, alarmed by rising carbon emissions, began advising citizens to switch to diesels,
Note the word GOVERNMENTS in the PLURAL

It turns out they were wrong but had done it on the basis of scientific advice for the right reasons
Former chief scientific adviser David King on backing diesel
The cracks took a long time to appear, but when they did they splintered rapidly. In 2012 came the first major evidence of some truly dreadful health impacts. Nitrogen oxides and dioxides (NOx) and particulate matter (PM) pumped out by diesel exhausts were fingered as silent killers.

In other words it took 10 years to be revealed, and what has your wonderful Conservative Government done about it?
Exactly what the dreadful Rees Mogg has, Blamed everyone else and not taken any responsibility .
Not only can any fool do that, Rees Mogg has, as usual.
The man is a Dinosaur from the squalid past.
Smooth talking, well educated. cunning and sinister.
I missed off Greedy, he is most certainly that.
 
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Kudoscycles

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Apr 15, 2011
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Redwood was on the TV this morning saying that we should pay nothing to the EU to leave,I think Rees-Mogg,Bone,IDS,Boris agree with him.
I wonder what figure Barnier has in mind?
I am of a mind now that we should offer them nothing,that will mean we will crash out....it will be interesting how the government in March 2019 deal with the cliff edge,it will be interesting how the 'just get out' brigade deal with the loss of jobs and benefits,it will be interesting how the NHS and Social Care deals with it.
Sometimes you just have to experience the pain for real.
Does anyone know what the tariff situation will be under WTO rules on imports from Asia to UK,we do buy a lot of Asian goods in the UK.
KudosDave
 
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Woosh

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Jacob Rees-Mogg was mentioned earlier in the thread. Let me offer a recent insight to the man. This is what he said, in black and white.
I see among conservative MPs two distinct groups: the toffs and the middle class meritocratic conservatives (those are suitably small 'c').
Although I have some sympathy for the latter, I definitely believe that the toffs have poisoned their party for far too long.
 

Woosh

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Does anyone know what the tariff situation will be under WTO rules on imports from Asia to UK,we do buy a lot of Asian goods in the UK.
Under WTO rules, if we crash out, we have to continue with the same duty rates as before until we sign new deals.
 

oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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I see among conservative MPs two distinct groups: the toffs and the middle class meritocratic conservatives (those are suitably small 'c').
Although I have some sympathy for the latter, I definitely believe that the toffs have poisoned their party for far too long.
I'm struggling with the concept of a "meritocratic conservative" as my Oxmoron filter blew a Fuse
Anyway after a Google search I found a more fitting description than meritocratic.

vermin
ˈvəːmɪn/
noun
    • people perceived as despicable and as causing problems for the rest of society.
And this
Tory
A Tory holds a political philosophy based on a British version of traditionalism and conservatism, which upholds the supremacy of social order as it has evolved throughout history. Wikipedia

No wonder they are useless to deal with the Modern world if they live in the past.
Passing laws that will enslave the population are so Medieval, hence wanting to get out from under the ECJ , and no doubt the ECHR too.

Amazing, what truth is out there in a Google search!
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Redwood was on the TV this morning saying that we should pay nothing to the EU to leave,I think Rees-Mogg,Bone,IDS,Boris agree with him.
I wonder what figure Barnier has in mind?
I am of a mind now that we should offer them nothing,that will mean we will crash out....it will be interesting how the government in March 2019 deal with the cliff edge,it will be interesting how the 'just get out' brigade deal with the loss of jobs and benefits,it will be interesting how the NHS and Social Care deals with it.
Sometimes you just have to experience the pain for real.
Does anyone know what the tariff situation will be under WTO rules on imports from Asia to UK,we do buy a lot of Asian goods in the UK.
KudosDave
You could well be right, this is rather like dealing with a National case of "Severe Political Constipation"
The only alternatives being if you want to clear a hard Brexit
  1. Application of an enema
  2. ****
  3. Or Bust
I'm sure a little thought will work that out
 
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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
8,086
4,290
Welcome indeed and many thanks.

Much as I applaud Winston Churchill and his ideas for a United States of Europe, time has, of course, marched on and what may well have fitted the world as he saw it at the time – things change, often for the worst. People adapt, take advantage perhaps and to a point no one seems to have, or accept personal responsibility anymore, preferring instead to rely on the state. Personally, I don’t like that and I suppose that makes me both a conservative, with a small ‘c’ and perhaps why I believe that we are better out of the EU.

Jacob Rees-Mogg was mentioned earlier in the thread. Let me offer a recent insight to the man. This is what he said, in black and white.

Writing about oneself is boring, but ideas are not. The question for Conservatives is “What do we want to propose to the electorate and how can we deliver it?” The last election campaign was too managerial and lacked inspiration. An effective manifesto does not need a great list of specific promises, it must instead set out a principled foundation on which each policy may be built.

Unlike the socialist, the Conservative believes that society is built from the bottom up, not the top down. Individuals come together to form families, communities and nations. The instruments of government are there to serve not to command. The random mass of individual decisions will better suit the comfort of the nation than the careful direction of resources from Whitehall. I am not the first to point out that, every day in London, 10 million lunches are served without the need for ministerial involvement.

It follows from this view that the state is there to enable people to lead the lives they wish as far as possible without conflicting with their neighbours. Policy decisions flow from this and it is the moral basis for what the government does. It is interested in what people can do, rather than what they are unable to do, and this has underpinned Iain Duncan Smith’s disability reforms, which seek to find out what a disabled person is capable of doing, rather than assuming that the only response to disability is money.

In terms of taxation, the view that individuals matter is a reminder that the money belongs to a specific person, and the state may only take what it needs. Generally, people will spend their own money more effectively than the government and there is no money at all, except for that earned in the private sector. Public sector workers may pay tax, but that merely circulates money between departments; tax paid by NHS workers comes and goes from the consolidated fund with some administrative expense in between.

In addition to low taxation being right in terms of ownership, it is also better economically. The recent cut in corporation tax, one of George Osborne’s most successful policies, has more than doubled the tax received. This has helped businesses afford to invest and employ people leading to a stronger economy and allowing the Government more easily to finance its expenditure. This example ought to be applied to income tax and, as a matter of urgency, to stamp duty.

Going with the grain of what people want is not only important in terms of taxation. The Grenfell Tower was not created because people chose to live in tower blocks, but because, from the Second World War onward, officialdom wanted tower blocks – despite opinion surveys consistently showing that the overwhelmingly majority of people want to live in houses with gardens.

But the state thought it knew best. Regrettably some Conservatives went along with this, though tower blocks are the physical embodiment of socialism. Would it not be better to pull them down, build houses, even if this requires more space, which it often does not, and then sell them at a discount to the current occupants of tower blocks? It would help people have what they want, and reinvigorate home ownership, which creates a stable society but also meets a natural, almost fundamental, human ambition.

As with tower blocks, so with energy policy It is striking how wrong the big state can be. It was the “Nanny knows best” approach that led to the scandal over diesel emissions. To risk public health today, for a carbon dioxide policy made irrelevant by emerging markets was the worst sort of political grandstanding. Similarly, the tariffs on Chinese solar panels put up the cost of energy subsidies at the expense of the poorest in the land. Meanwhile, the market is providing cleaner energy; in the United States, renewable energy is growing rapidly as it becomes more economic, and shale gas has helped reduce emissions significantly. Conservatives should recognise that individual ingenuity and business acumen do better than central planning.

Conservatives ought to back the free market, but that is not the same as big business. We must tackle monopolies. Big business loves regulation – and incidentally the European Union – because it keeps out competition, maintains high prices and reduces the power of the individual consumer. The role of the state here is to back the customer, not the producer. In some areas this is easy: supermarkets are highly competitive and need little interference. The monopolists tend to have high levels of capital invested, and many customers.

As a constituency MP, the worst organisation I deal with is BT, but it is not alone as a scarcely competent monopolist. The energy companies have a degree of arrogance towards the customers, while both banks and insurance firms penalise loyalty and the BBC writes eye-wateringly rude letters to people who do not own a television, assuming that they must be crooks. This is not about price caps, but about tilting the scales back towards the individual: if a company can penalise me for not paying on time, I ought to be able to fine it for sending out the wrong bill.

Each of us wants to improve our own standard of living and to see our children better off than we are. This is best done by freeing individuals to maximise their own successes through government that has confidence in their capacities, which trusts the people.

This is the kind of society that I want to live in. I certainly don’t expect that Jacob is the man to deliver it, or at least not in person and I know for sure that JC won’t even get close. He even thinks that the EU is right-wing!

So, yes, I want out and sincerely believe that given a few years it will prove to have been the best decision we have made in many a year. That said it would be so much better if we could at least provide a united front to the negotiations instead of playing politics.
Welcome Peter and the Best of British...at last somebody talking sense on here...
OG has a new sparring partner..( I,d put Tom on ignore now, before he reads your post)
Approaching 1000 pages and a leaver appears, better late than never...

I think Rees Mog is doing a sterling job with his new little house in Wentworth...its a credit too him...Its the little gaff labour zealots tried to destroy , digging coal out of its back yard...
Oh , what a united country we are. Isn't it fun.
Noticed as few posts since somebody moaning about value of sterling and cost of holidays in Europe.
I,ve just booked 10 days , half board, in a decent beach front hotel ( at a windy Greek island) for two of us...including flights, transfers and windsurf board transfer and storage...everything £610. And you can still buy brandy there for £7 a bottle. Oh, yep.we cant afford foreign holidays anymore..some more scare stories. BS.
There has been a lot of profiteering done on back of Brexit...both on services and products. I,ve just treated myself to some new kit...( windsurfing) ...Its listed price is way higher than last year...what you actually pay...hardly any different...
 
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flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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I think Rees Mog is doing a sterling job with his new little house in Wentworth...its a credit too him...Its the little gaff labour zealots tried to destroy , digging coal out of its back yard...
What's wrong with that? Seems very suitable, considering the Rees Mogg fortune was made in coal mines.
.
 
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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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What's wrong with that? Seems very suitable, considering the Rees Mogg fortune was made in coal mines.
.
Nothing, but it didn't work, had you cared to visit place. Its still largest fronted stately home in UK..About time country or some rich sod spent some cash on it..Its way more impressive than Chatsworth...even has its own bear pit.

On a serious note the labour actions around Wentworth were nothing more than spitefull vandalism...Labour lost lots of support in labour strong hold..Folk have short memories though...all damage done was repaired by government...rather pointless really. My grandparents, great uncles worked on estate for years, repairing much of damage...so kept a few in jobs I suppose.
 
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Kudoscycles

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Apr 15, 2011
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Welcome Peter and the Best of British...at last somebody talking sense on here...
OG has a new sparring partner..( I,d put Tom on ignore now, before he reads your post)
Approaching 1000 pages and a leaver appears, better late than never...

I think Rees Mog is doing a sterling job with his new little house in Wentworth...its a credit too him...Its the little gaff labour zealots tried to destroy , digging coal out of its back yard...
Oh , what a united country we are. Isn't it fun.
Noticed as few posts since somebody moaning about value of sterling and cost of holidays in Europe.
I,ve just booked 10 days , half board, in a decent beach front hotel ( at a windy Greek island) for two of us...including flights, transfers and windsurf board transfer and storage...everything £610. And you can still buy brandy there for £7 a bottle. Oh, yep.we cant afford foreign holidays anymore..some more scare stories. BS.
There has been a lot of profiteering done on back of Brexit...
The 'little gaff' you refer to is his wife's family 108 room country pile that we taxpayers have just given them £7million to do it up....not as a heritage home but to convert to apartments for rental.
You are right that Labour gave permission to dig coal out of the front lawn which wrecked the pad....which is ironic in that Rees-Mogg has made fortunes out of dodgy mining workings in the third world,most of his income is in US dollar so the pounds weakening is good for him.
Always another side according to which rag you read.
I am off to Greece soon but now I am a pensioner have to watch the odd Euro,staying on a boat to economise,enjoy your holiday.
KudosDave
 
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Woosh

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considering the Rees Mogg fortune was made in coal mines.
I don't have any problem with JRM being rich, I see in him the reason why TM labelled the tories the nasty party, namely his received pronunciation. Just as much a put on job as Johnson's apparent buffoonery.
TM, being daughter of a vicar, will never fit in a tory government headed up by someone like JRM.
 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
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had you cared to visit place. Its still largest fronted stately home in UK..About time country or some rich sod spent some cash on it..Its way more impressive than Chatsworth...even has its own bear pit.
I would never visit, I hate all these old buildings that despoil the countryside and the endless waste of money and resources maintaining them.

I'd demolish over 95% of them, keeping only a few best examples for the historic record, also removing buildings from the brief of the National Trust.
.
 
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oldgroaner

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 15, 2015
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Welcome Peter and the Best of British...at last somebody talking sense on here...
At last! an admission you didn't!:cool:
That has to rate as a plus against your record.
Is that also an admission that you were not in fact a "leaver" sometimes it's hard to keep up with your latest position on that, isn't it?
Well done, but what the heck are you doing praising the likes of Rees Mogg?
Are you having one of your "turns"?
 
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PeterL

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This by the way is the man with an atrocious voting record of opposing any aid the the needy and helpless.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926/jacob_rees-mogg/north_east_somerset/votes?policy=welfare

A remarkable record even for a Conservative with a big C
His Financial "doings" how about
This
MP Jacob Rees-Mogg 'NOT happy with 7-figure bonus' despite being worth at least £100million"


This from the Company he heads, the Old Etonian still keeps a keen eye on the financial world and takes a monthly dividend of £11,730 from SCM.

Combined with his parliamentary salary, it means he takes home at least £216,000 a year.

Frankly you need to have a better Horse to bet on than this Donkey, , and when we are out of the EU clowns like this highly evolved parasite will be writing the laws that apply to the poor people they despise.

Come on now, surely you can do better than quote the weasel words of an unscrupulous villain like this man?
Would you like me to go through the garbage he wrote and destroy it line by line?
let's take his remarks about diesel fuel as an example.
Gordon Brown promoted the switch on 2001 and this wasn't opposed by the Torys as the Kyoto accord was worrying parliament.
. Government, industry and science united to sell us the dream: cars running on diesel would help us cut our CO2 emissions as we eased smoothly into a new eco-friendly age.
Governments, meanwhile, alarmed by rising carbon emissions, began advising citizens to switch to diesels,
Note the word GOVERNMENTS in the PLURAL

It turns out they were wrong but had done it on the basis of scientific advice for the right reasons
Former chief scientific adviser David King on backing diesel
The cracks took a long time to appear, but when they did they splintered rapidly. In 2012 came the first major evidence of some truly dreadful health impacts. Nitrogen oxides and dioxides (NOx) and particulate matter (PM) pumped out by diesel exhausts were fingered as silent killers.

In other words it took 10 years to be revealed, and what has your wonderful Conservative Government done about it?
Exactly what the dreadful Rees Mogg has, Blamed everyone else and not taken any responsibility .
Not only can any fool do that, Rees Mogg has, as usual.
The man is a Dinosaur from the squalid past.
Smooth talking, well educated. cunning and sinister.
I missed off Greedy, he is most certainly that.
This by the way is the man with an atrocious voting record of opposing any aid the the needy and helpless.
https://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/24926/jacob_rees-mogg/north_east_somerset/votes?policy=welfare

A remarkable record even for a Conservative with a big C
His Financial "doings" how about
This
MP Jacob Rees-Mogg 'NOT happy with 7-figure bonus' despite being worth at least £100million"


This from the Company he heads, the Old Etonian still keeps a keen eye on the financial world and takes a monthly dividend of £11,730 from SCM.

Combined with his parliamentary salary, it means he takes home at least £216,000 a year.

Frankly you need to have a better Horse to bet on than this Donkey, , and when we are out of the EU clowns like this highly evolved parasite will be writing the laws that apply to the poor people they despise.

Come on now, surely you can do better than quote the weasel words of an unscrupulous villain like this man?
Would you like me to go through the garbage he wrote and destroy it line by line?
let's take his remarks about diesel fuel as an example.
Gordon Brown promoted the switch on 2001 and this wasn't opposed by the Torys as the Kyoto accord was worrying parliament.
. Government, industry and science united to sell us the dream: cars running on diesel would help us cut our CO2 emissions as we eased smoothly into a new eco-friendly age.
Governments, meanwhile, alarmed by rising carbon emissions, began advising citizens to switch to diesels,
Note the word GOVERNMENTS in the PLURAL

It turns out they were wrong but had done it on the basis of scientific advice for the right reasons
Former chief scientific adviser David King on backing diesel
The cracks took a long time to appear, but when they did they splintered rapidly. In 2012 came the first major evidence of some truly dreadful health impacts. Nitrogen oxides and dioxides (NOx) and particulate matter (PM) pumped out by diesel exhausts were fingered as silent killers.

In other words it took 10 years to be revealed, and what has your wonderful Conservative Government done about it?
Exactly what the dreadful Rees Mogg has, Blamed everyone else and not taken any responsibility .
Not only can any fool do that, Rees Mogg has, as usual.
The man is a Dinosaur from the squalid past.
Smooth talking, well educated. cunning and sinister.
I missed off Greedy, he is most certainly that.


So, I guess that you are saying that JRM speaks with forked tongue, or words to that effect? You may be right of course but there are many others for whom that is not in question – they do tell lies and most of the time, especially when it comes to Brexit!


As others have implied to refer to his accent or the fact that he has more money than most of us is little more than the politics of envy. Churchill wasn’t exactly a pauper come to that and but for the war I doubt he would have ever led the country, a point that JRM tends to agree with I feel – but, cometh the hour cometh the man so, be careful what you wish for!


What you failed to address is what he actually said and were you to do so then perhaps you could explain what is wrong with it – all of it, point by point? Surely, much of it is very good and would be welcomed by those you seem to represent? In many ways, the whole debate surrounding Brexit and perhaps the wider opposing political views are about as useful as chocolate cups. For me the main problem I see is that all we get is opposition or disagreement and never a sensible offer. A sensible offer to take forward the fact that the public voted to leave the EU, lock stock and barrel.
 
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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
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The 'little gaff' you refer to is his wife's family 108 room country pile that we taxpayers have just given them £7million to do it up....not as a heritage home but to convert to apartments for rental.
You are right that Labour gave permission to dig coal out of the front lawn which wrecked the pad....which is ironic in that Rees-Mogg has made fortunes out of dodgy mining workings in the third world,most of his income is in US dollar so the pounds weakening is good for him.
Always another side according to which rag you read.
I am off to Greece soon but now I am a pensioner have to watch the odd Euro,staying on a boat to economise,enjoy your holiday.
KudosDave
Staying on a boat to economise ?? You bought a canoe ?? Must be different to my experience with boats...

OG
You know full well I voted leave but said I,d vote remain in a second ref....basically to appease all you noisy remainers ( well 6 of you)

Besides who you voting for these days OG ??? Still a fence sitting lib Dem...or are you a devout labour this week... Wasn't me who changed voting principles OG...
I was in Whitby last weekend...thought I might see you struggling up that great big hill on your Brompton...
Ps
Kudos...enjoy your caravanning...
 
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Danidl

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So, I guess that you are saying that JRM speaks with forked tongue, or words to that effect? You may be right of course but there are many others for whom that is not in question – they do tell lies and most of the time, especially when it comes to Brexit!


As others have implied to refer to his accent or the fact that he has more money than most of us is little more than the politics of envy. Churchill wasn’t exactly a pauper come to that and but for the war I doubt he would have ever led the country, a point that JRM tends to agree with I feel – but, cometh the hour cometh the man so, be careful what you wish for!


What you failed to address is what he actually said and were you to do so then perhaps you could explain what is wrong with it – all of it, point by point? Surely, much of it is very good and would be welcomed by those you seem to represent? In many ways, the whole debate surrounding Brexit and perhaps the wider opposing political views are about as useful as chocolate cups. For me the main problem I see is that all we get is opposition or disagreement and never a sensible offer. A sensible offer to take forward the fact that the public voted to leave the EU, lock stock and barrel.
.. oh dear the public voted lock stock and barrel to leave the EU... Not quite.

How often need it be said, the majority of the public in favour of the proposition to leave the EU was wafer thin. Of the 46 million , from a population of 64 million, eligible to vote , about 34 million did so.. not a bad turnout. The majority in favour was 2 million 17 to 15 . Had 1 million of the leavers voted stay, the proposition would have been defeated. So 1 in 34 or 3% was the majority of leavers.
The decision in the house of parliament was however a strong vote in favour of leaving.
 
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PeterL

Esteemed Pedelecer
Aug 19, 2017
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Ha
.. oh dear the public voted lock stock and barrel to leave the EU... Not quite.

How often need it be said, the majority of the public in favour of the proposition to leave the EU was wafer thin. Of the 46 million , from a population of 64 million, eligible to vote , about 34 million did so.. not a bad turnout. The majority in favour was 2 million 17 to 15 . Had 1 million of the leavers voted stay, the proposition would have been defeated. So 1 in 34 or 3% was the majority of leavers.
The decision in the house of parliament was however a strong vote in favour of leaving.
Had it been by just a single vote, the obligation to a referendum wouldn't have been any different - the result was that we leave. I suspect that even if the vote had been by a majority of 5M that wouldn't have changed the views of those that voted to remain. It was a simple question with an equally simple answer - what's so hard to understand?
 
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Woosh

Trade Member
May 19, 2012
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The majority in favour was 2 million 17 to 15 . Had 1 million of the leavers voted stay, the proposition would have been defeated. So 1 in 34 or 3% was the majority of leavers.
the actual margin is tighter than that.
If 634,751 changed their vote, the result would have flipped.

 

flecc

Member
Oct 25, 2006
53,338
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What you failed to address is what he actually said and were you to do so then perhaps you could explain what is wrong with it – all of it, point by point? Surely, much of it is very good and would be welcomed by those you seem to represent?
Indeed, difficult to disagree with. The problem is the failure of his Conservative party to follow that agenda, ot even intend to.

It's that wilful dishonesty so many of us hate.
.
 
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Zlatan

Esteemed Pedelecer
Nov 26, 2016
8,086
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Indeed, difficult to disagree with. The problem is the failure of his Conservative party to follow that agenda, ot even intend to.

It's that wilful dishonesty so many of us hate.
.
And tories...and Stately homes...and leavers....and motorists....and patriots...and Trump...any more flecc ?
Oh ofcourse and tourism...and northerners...
 
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