Brexit, for once some facts.

[shemozzle999]

The outcome of Brexit will not be determined by polls of some 3400 odd people or as reported yesterday another spoiler legal challenge but by the decisions struck via the negotiations between the two interested parties.

Hopefully compromises can be achieved by these 28 countries to produce as little damage to the future of the economical and social balance of all concerned.

 

[oldgroaner]

The outcome of Brexit will not be determined by polls of some 3400 odd people or as reported yesterday another spoiler legal challenge but by the decisions struck via the negotiations between the two interested parties.

Hopefully compromises can be achieved by these 28 countries to produce as little damage to the future of the economical and social balance of all concerned.

You are missing the point . the social damage will not be done by the EU but by our own Government on the grounds of "necessity" and that is unavoidable, and inevitable.

 

[Zlatan]

Lifted from Galvin report !
"European Parliament Politicians

A British MEP will get a salary of £63,291 a year (£316,455 over 5 years). However, in our calculations we have assumed MEPs will spend all this £316,455 on their and their families’ living costs and so have not included MEPs’ salaries in our estimates of how MEPs can become millionaires in just 5 years.
Summary of how much an MEP can save / claim (excluding salary):

Possible beneffits over 5 years

1 Subsistence Allowance €117,000

2 Assistants’ Allowance €489,840

3 Office Expenses €243,120

4 Travel Expenses €60,000

Total €909,960

( plus salary)

Value of accrued pension £350,000

Total savings in one 5-year term £1,077,968

If you are the EU candidate for one of the main political parties, you have a one in three chance of scoring your EU millions – all in all, much better odds than winning the EuroMillions lottery or else correctly answering all the questions on Who Wants to be a Millionaire?

Even when MEPs lose their seats in the European parliament, they don’t have to bid goodbye to the financial benefits immediately. Once they leave office MEPs continue to enjoy a ‘transitional allowance’ (basically their parliamentary salaries) for anything from six months to two years, depending on their length of service. So for just 5 years at the Parliament, this would be worth a minum of over £30,000 to a British MEP. MEPs can also keep on using the parliament's subsidised restaurants and cafeterias, libraries and telephone facilities in Brussels, Strasbourg and Luxembourg. Moreover, once they start
drawing their EU pensions, these are subject to special, low EU tax rates and not the, usually much higher, tax rates in whichever country they may retire"

Compare all this with how UK fire service personnel have been treated.

 

[Danidl]

Lifted from Galvin report !
"European Parliament Politicians

A British MEP will get a salary of £63,291 a year (£316,455 over 5 years). However, in our calculations we have assumed MEPs will spend all this £316,455 on their and their families’ living costs and so have not included MEPs’ salaries in our estimates of how MEPs can become millionaires in just 5 years.
Summary of how much an MEP can save / claim (excluding salary):

Possible beneffits over 5 years

1 Subsistence Allowance €117,000

2 Assistants’ Allowance €489,840

3 Office Expenses €243,120

4 Travel Expenses €60,000

Total €909,960

( plus salary)

Value of accrued pension £350,000

Total savings in one 5-year term £1,077,968

If you are the EU candidate for one of the main political parties, you have a one in three chance of scoring your EU millions – all in all, much better odds than winning the EuroMillions lottery or else correctly answering all the questions on Who Wants to be a Millionaire?

Even when MEPs lose their seats in the European parliament, they don’t have to bid goodbye to the financial benefits immediately. Once they leave office MEPs continue to enjoy a ‘transitional allowance’ (basically their parliamentary salaries) for anything from six months to two years, depending on their length of service. So for just 5 years at the Parliament, this would be worth a minum of over £30,000 to a British MEP. MEPs can also keep on using the parliament's subsidised restaurants and cafeterias, libraries and telephone facilities in Brussels, Strasbourg and Luxembourg. Moreover, once they start
drawing their EU pensions, these are subject to special, low EU tax rates and not the, usually much higher, tax rates in whichever country they may retire"

Compare all this with how UK fire service personnel have been treated.

All the more reason why the electorate should ensure that they select good quality candidates. Has the UK a tradition of so doing?

 

[Woosh]

All the more reason why the electorate should ensure that they select good quality candidates. Has the UK a tradition of so doing?

the voting system for MEPs in the UK is the culprit, not the voters.
We vote for the parties under a proportional representation system, the parties then send their people to the EP to represent them.
That ensures low level of participation and the poor calibre of the MEPs.

 

[Danidl]

the voting system for MEPs in the UK is the culprit, not the voters.
We vote for the parties under a proportional representation system, the parties then send their people to the EP to represent them.
That ensures low level of participation and the poor calibre of the MEPs.

No. It's not the system, it's the people. That's an excuse. PR has a better chance of getting a more representative selection , than the first past the post, which accentuates difference .

 

[Woosh]

No. It's not the system, it's the people. That's an excuse. PR has a better chance of getting a more representative selection , than the first past the post, which accentuates difference .

the UK PR system is to allocate seats to the parties. There is no direct representation, no real campaigning on EU issues, it's just a shouting match between pro-EU and brexit. I bet nobody knows who their MEP is except those who voted UKIP.

 

[Danidl]

The outcome of Brexit will not be determined by polls of some 3400 odd people or as reported yesterday another spoiler legal challenge but by the decisions struck via the negotiations between the two interested parties.

Hopefully compromises can be achieved by these 28 countries to produce as little damage to the future of the economical and social balance of all concerned.

I admire your optimism.
Consider if you had a relative who was engaging in what you considered self destructive behaviour, say alcoholism, reckless gambling. Feckless behaviour joining a religious cult, out of character with their previous sober maybe staid existence. Activity that you truly believe can only have a bad outcome for them and may even affect your well-being. Now this activity is legal, purchasing alcohol is legal etc.

What response or negotiations can you have with that relative. Do you facilitate them ? They have every right to go down this reckless path. Do you shun them ? Do you do the best you can to stop them mortgaging any joint property you might share?

This is not an unusual occurrence, and many families have to face it. We have described Brexit in terms of a family divorce, but that is not quite the same, as in a divorce both parties are of equal standing and presumably mature and can get third parties to negotiate for them outside the emotional baggage.

 

[Danidl]

the UK PR system is to allocate seats to the parties. There is no direct representation, no real campaigning on EU issues, it's just a shouting match between pro-EU and brexit. I bet nobody knows who their MEP is except those who voted UKIP.

.. as I said it's the people. IN Ireland we know who our MEPs are.

 

[Danidl]

In other news Spanish hotels are very seriously considering refusing English package holiday tourists (some already are). They have done the math and the food poisoning swindle has cost them so much they prefer Dutch or German package holiday tourists instead. So it looks like the exit from the sunny south is under way!

.. as it might also be from Catalonia, with unrest there.

 

[shemozzle999]

I admire your optimism.
Consider if you had a relative who was engaging in what you considered self destructive behaviour, say alcoholism, reckless gambling. Feckless behaviour joining a religious cult, out of character with their previous sober maybe staid existence. Activity that you truly believe can only have a bad outcome for them and may even affect your well-being. Now this activity is legal, purchasing alcohol is legal etc.

What response or negotiations can you have with that relative. Do you facilitate them ? They have every right to go down this reckless path. Do you shun them ? Do you do the best you can to stop them mortgaging any joint property you might share?

This is not an unusual occurrence, and many families have to face it. We have described Brexit in terms of a family divorce, but that is not quite the same, as in a divorce both parties are of equal standing and presumably mature and can get third parties to negotiate for them outside the emotional baggage.

Your Country's voice is not excluded from the negotiations you can have your say?

 

[Woosh]

.. as I said it's the people. IN Ireland we know who our MEPs are.

you know who your MEPs are because you have the STV voting system, we in England vote for the parties, not the candidates.

 

[Danidl]

Your Country's voice is not excluded from the negotiations you can have your say?

Not quite. The European parliament ,of which Ireland has membership, agreed the terms of reference for the Barnier group. Only when conclusions are reached, will there be another say.
The UK group sought to dilute and divide that by attempting to have a specific irish UK group on designing new border controls. This was in existence for sometime but has now been disbanded by our new leader. His comments mirror those I indicated. .. we do not want to facilitate the UK s self harm.
There will presumably be a number of sidebar discussions at EU council meetings, but these will only indirectly affect negotiations.

The UK is the only national party attending the negotiations. Now everything including the EU strategy has identified before article 50 was triggered, so if there are any surprises, it's because the UK delegation wasn't engaged.

 

[Danidl]

you know who your MEPs are because you have the STV voting system, we in England vote for the parties, not the candidates.

I could never understand the concept of the list system. When you send representatives, you are sending the character of the person to represent you.

 

[Woosh]

I could never understand the concept of the list system. When you send representatives, you are sending the character of the person to represent you.

the UK has probably institutionalized brexit since the beginning.

 

[shemozzle999]

Not quite. The European parliament ,of which Ireland has membership, agreed the terms of reference for the Barnier group. Only when conclusions are reached, will there be another say.
The UK group sought to dilute and divide that by attempting to have a specific irish UK group on designing new border controls. This was in existence for sometime but has now been disbanded by our new leader. His comments mirror those I indicated. .. we do not want to facilitate the UK s self harm.
There will presumably be a number of sidebar discussions at EU council meetings, but these will only indirectly affect negotiations.

The UK is the only national party attending the negotiations. Now everything including the EU strategy has identified before article 50 was triggered, so if there are any surprises, it's because the UK delegation wasn't engaged.

Exactly my point, your leaders choice, as you have the right to do, not a UK decision.

I hope the negotiators you have delegated can reach a decision for you.

 

[Danidl]

Exactly my point, your leaders choice, as you have the right to do, not a UK decision.

I hope the negotiators you have delegated can reach a decision for you.

I'm not sure what point you are seeking to make.
The negotiators will , if there is cooperation from the UK side present their conclusions to the EU parliment, who will then vote. It will be qualified majority voting, so neither Ireland or any other country will have a veto. Whether the UK parliment has a vote, is interesting, but irrelevant. Hopefully a workable agreement is reached. But I am no longer expecting that.
If the UK decides that the two year window is inadequate, then they may request (not demand) the EU for an extension, and the EU parliment needs to unanimously agree to that otherwise the UK is out, a hard border exists on the island of Ireland, no trade deals, no deal for UK subjects t in Europe. No deal for EU citizens in the UK and years of acrimony.

 

[flecc]

otherwise the UK is out, a hard border exists on the island of Ireland, no trade deals, no deal for UK subjects in Europe. No deal for EU citizens in the UK and years of acrimony.

Followed by an application to rejoin the EU as the easiest way to solve all the problems.
.

 

[tommie]

Oh well, there goes any dreams of a little retirement finca in sunny Spain

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/10/world/europe/spain-beach-migrants-video.html

boatload upon boatload, every day and night... and who will be paying??

Welcome to the EU guys, just don`t touch those Dutch eggs!!

The EU?...an accident waiting to happen!

 

[Danidl]

Oh well, there goes any dreams of a little retirement finca in sunny Spain

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/08/10/world/europe/spain-beach-migrants-video.html

boatload upon boatload, every day and night... and who will be paying??

Welcome to the EU guys, just don`t touch those Dutch eggs!!

The EU?...an accident waiting to happen!

... Tommie, according to that article more people have drowned this year alone crossing into Europe than died in the 9/11 event. Your sympathy for the plight of your fellow man is breathtaking.
The ultimate cause is global population growth, and the proximal causes are war driven by the wealthy west , and now the wealthy countries like China demanding resources. And which country has had the largest empire subjugating the majority of the worlds population. I can give you a clue.. they used to mark the countries in red.
Europe could well absorb a few million more, particularly in underpopulated rural areas.