Brexit, for once some facts.

[Kudoscycles]

people don't change their mind unless some catastrophy happens.
here is the dichotomy of British attitude:

you are not going to convince 70% of the voters that free trade = free movement and that these two are not reconcilable.

source:
http://whatukthinks.org/eu/analysis/what-do-voters-want-from-brexit/

There are ardent Brexiters who are xenophobic and don't want 'foreigners' ,but most sensible people are keen on free movement....some stupidly didn't realise that restriction of free movement is a 2-way street and that if we restrict EU people coming here then we will be restricted to travelling to the EU.,the first time they have to get a visa to travel to Benidorm will change their mind.
Corbyn is keen on free movement but anti the EU,not quite sure how you square that,young people are very keen on free movement.
The interesting thing is that nobody is discussing sovereignty of laws,which is really the only matter that the IDS and Rees-Mugs care about,they don't care about the economy and the country as long as they get their power back,most people don't seem to care about sovereignty.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

no, I haven't. I voted remain halfheartedly.
I prefer the EU if push comes to shove but I support soft brexit.

The one thing I agree with Farage is there is no such thing as hard or soft Brexit,there is Brexit or No Brexit,anything in between just doesn't make sense.....if it's soft Brexit we might as well stay as we are,if it's hard Brexit the damage is so great we might as well crash out.
But I suspect we will fudge it and end up not satisfying either Leave or Remain,just cost us a lot money,that we cannot afford.
KudosDave

 

[Woosh]

Corbyn is keen on free movement but anti the EU,not quite sure how you square that,young people are very keen on free movement.
The interesting thing is that nobody is discussing sovereignty of laws,which is really the only matter that the IDS and Rees-Mugs,they don't care about the economy and the country as long as they get their power back,most people don't seem to care about sovereignty.

people like Rees Mogg and Isobel Oakeshott think that they are born to rule.
I don't know if you watch Poldark but I can see where they get their cue from.

 

[Kudoscycles]

people like Rees Mogg and Isobel Oakeshott think that they are born to rule.
I don't know if you watch Poldark but I can see where they get their cue from.

George Warleggan.

 

[shemozzle999]

https://europa.eu/european-union/about-eu/agencies_en

Having just read through the material on this link: index.jsp, I fail to understand the point you seek to make 'shemozzle999'.

The agency, as is the case with other agencies, is as transparent about its structures, appointments and composition as anyone could wish for.

I think it's important to remember that in a fight, 27 will almost certainly beat one, especially when the 27 have the judges on their side!

Tom

"EU agencies are distinct bodies from the EU institutions – separate legal entities set up to perform specific tasks under EU law."

Both UK decentralised agencies hold the leases, not the EU, they are solely responsible for them.

EMA - 25 year lease with no break clause, funded 90% by commercial fees with 5% contribution from the EU and no member state contributions.

EBA - 12year lease with mid term break clause, funded 40% by the EU and 60% by the member state (shared in proportion of voting rights)

If Barnier was clever he could try again to introduce his failed EU consulates regulation - apply it to both buildings obtain ECJ jurisdiction within the building leaving them in place and saving the agencies a whole pile of money - of course that wont happen

 

[flecc]

most people don't seem to care about sovereignty.

Probably because as subjects of the crown they haven't any.
.

 

[oldgroaner]

"EU agencies are distinct bodies from the EU institutions – separate legal entities set up to perform specific tasks under EU law."

Both UK decentralised agencies hold the leases, not the EU, they are solely responsible for them.

EMA - 25 year lease with no break clause, funded 90% by commercial fees with 5% contribution from the EU and no member state contributions.

EBA - 12year lease with mid term break clause, funded 40% by the EU and 60% by the member state (shared in proportion of voting rights)

If Barnier was clever he could try again to introduce his failed EU consulates regulation - apply it to both buildings obtain ECJ jurisdiction within the building leaving them in place and saving the agencies a whole pile of money - of course that wont happen

Why would he do that in a Foreign Country? after all that is what we have made ourselves, haven't we?

 

[Kudoscycles]

Current politics is personally working out quite well.....Trump is wrecking the value of the dollar against the £,so US and Chinese product is getting cheaper and May/Brexit is wrecking the value of the £ against the Euro,so our products look cheaper to the Europeans. The EU seems to be getting its act together so the Euro can only get stronger.
Will make anything we buy from the EU very expensive (German cars and e-bikes) so maybe we will buy UK sourced Chinese instead.
Something about black clouds and silver lining!!!!
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

Woosh....oh no....I cannot believe you have joined the 'yah boo,we won,you lost,now deal with it' brigade. There was a classic Brexiter at one of the auto shows demanding to know why a product had gone up in price so much....I explained it was a Euro sourced part and the big price rise was caused by Brexit...he shouted expletives at me.....bet you were a f....... Remainer, 'we won you f.......lost'
I asked him what he had won,he looked perplexed....I explained 'if you won the lottery they give you cash,if you won the olympics you get a medal,so what have you won'.....he had no answer,he clearly didn't have a clue what he had won.
But I tell you what your vote has lost.....about 40 quid because that is the increase post Brexit. He stormed off shouting expletives at anyone who looked at him.
His mate came back half an hour later and bought the part,he couldn't buy it anywhere else.
I tell the anecdote because when Brexit is finally taken away from these guys I worry what their reaction is going to be,their bit of power has been robbed off them and situation normal will be maintained.
Where you get your 4% margin to Brexit I just don't know,the reason why Brexiters won't want a second referendum is that they are worried they will lose badly,now that Boris and Gove's lies are truthfully exposed.
KudosDave

Seems neither side actually want a referendum . Are they both worried the result will go against them ???

 

[flecc]

Seems neither side actually want a referendum . Are they both worried the result will go against them ???

It's no-win for both of them to back another referendum.

Whatever the result they'll be guilty of questioning the electorate's decison, and if it reverses the Leave decison they'll be guilty of denying the public choice.

As I've said before, at present it's ideal for the politicians since if Brexit doesn't work out well, it's the peoples fault for choosing it.

But if it works out well the politicians will still be able to claim the credit.
.

 

[Woosh]

Seems neither side actually want a referendum . Are they both worried the result will go against them ???

if you were the government, would you propose a referendum if you are not sure you are going to win?
DC called it because the experts told him that if he delayed until 2017, the economic cycle means things were getting worse. At the time, remain was some 20% ahead of leave. A bit like the last GE, May was 20% ahead of Corbyn at the time she called it.

 

[oldgroaner]

Seems neither side actually want a referendum . Are they both worried the result will go against them ???

YES, and of course that even if it was for remain, the EU might say NO Thank you!

 

[oldgroaner]

if you were the government, would you propose a referendum if you are not sure you are going to win?
DC called it because the experts told him that if he delayed until 2017, the economic cycle means things were getting worse. At the time, remain was some 20% ahead of leave. A bit like the last GE, May was 20% ahead of Corbyn at the time she called it.

Everyone in Parliament is just hoping something comes up, as they have by now surely realised that events are now completely out of control, unless someone is prepared to go Skinny Dipping in a full Septic Tank after pennies.

Its a "Fine Mess they've gotten themselves into!"

 

[Zlatan]

if you were the government, would you propose a referendum if you are not sure you are going to win?
DC called it because the experts told him that if he delayed until 2017, the economic cycle means things were getting worse. At the time, remain was some 20% ahead of leave. A bit like the last GE, May was 20% ahead of Corbyn at the time she called it.

Yes , without doubt..we should not be looking at this decision as win or lose. It should simply be the choice of the majority of voters. If its not so , we all lose.
Since first referendum things have really changed. Its become apparent our government are incapable of delivering what was offered. It has become apparent just how entrenched uk actually is in EU and how fervent the support is for remain.
For all our sakes there should either be a second referendum or a major party having remain in its manifesto / policy.
Without either we continue Brexit with probably 40% of population supporting it.

I wonder how many leavers would have voted as they did had they known Cameron would resign following day??

 

[Woosh]

Without either we continue Brexit with probably 40% of population supporting it.

the dieheard brexit voters count only for 35% of voters, but there are even fewer diehard remainers, only 25%.
Either way, it is not the choice of the majority.
Soft brexit is the only way.

 

[Woosh]

It has become apparent just how entrenched uk actually is in EU

what would you expect after 44 years of continued convergence? we will need at least 3-5 years to establish a new relationship and another generation to get used to it.

 

[oldgroaner]

the dieheard brexit voters count only for 35% of voters, but there are even fewer diehard remainers, only 25%.
Either way, it is not the choice of the majority.
Soft brexit is the only way.

How do you manage to turn a 4% differential into a 10% one?

 

[oldgroaner]

what would you expect after 44 years of continued convergence? we will need at least 3-5 years to establish a new relationship and another generation to get used to it.

Whoa there, it will take 5 years of suffering at least before the penny drops, and only then there will be probably the same period of trying to get back in, going downhill all the time.
Brace yourself for at least ten years of decline and increasing unrest.

 

[Woosh]

How do you manage to turn a 4% differential into a 10% one?

you only have to look deeper into the divide. Find out where the soft tissue stops and the rock hard support begins.
Would you like to see some pretty graphs from natcen?

 

[oldgroaner]

you only have to look deeper into the divide.
Would you like to see some pretty graphs from natcen?

Not really, as this is all hardly worth the effort, is it?
None of these figures can be relied on . There should be a disclaimer like the one on the MOT Certificate.
An MOT pass does not Guarantee roadworthiness of the vehicle.
What the Figures show is in fact how successful the lies and propaganda of the last five years over immigrants and refugees have been in moulding public opinion.