Brexit, for once some facts.

[Kudoscycles]

Things will be ok for the next 3 weeks....Theresa May is in Switzerland for 3 weeks. David Davis was meant to be in South Africa on holiday .
I find it unbelievable that Brexit is the most important negotiations for the UK and yet they can take a holiday at the same time,when time is running out and negotiations at impasse.
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

David Davis was meant to be in South Africa on holiday .

Poor chap has just done a whole day of negotiating, he must be utterly exhausted.
.

 

[Zlatan]

I'm happy to watch you be wrong this time.

Against Labour's 13 years of government since 1978, the Tories have had exactly double at 26 years.

During that time Labour have had one big black mark against them, Iraq and WMD, but most of the bad news for the electorate's lives has been during those 26 Tory years. And now they've not only caused the Brexit mess, they are promising us more suffering!

I think we are at the point when many of the electorate are finally getting sick of the Tories and seeing their true self-interested greedy nature. They took a knock this time but may get a real kicking next time.
.

But you are missing point flecc. They should/ could have had a real kicking this time. The time to be truthful about feelings on leaving are obviously before we have finalised leaving.
48% of voting public( on a very high turn out) supported remain. Are you really saying had JC tapped into that he would not have got in, because I,m pretty sure he would have done.
Now, we simply will never know.
Next time will simply be too late. We,ll be out.
And,had JC had remain in his manifesto would labour actually been any worse off than they are now even if it hadn't got them into no. 10 ? Perhaps a couple of seats to UKIP was the worst scenario with being able to form a labour government being the best. At last election it was a no lose situation to back remain, but he still didn't. In 50 years time folk will look back in wonderment at Tories offering us Brexit and Labour not opposing it, even when going badly.Its all quite incredible.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I am of the opinion,and always have been,that Brexit will be a disaster....Leavers think the opposite.....it seems a subject that there is no common ground. But,if Brexit is to be a success I think we can all agree that it needs the best negotiating team in the world,the 3 Brexiters appear to be the worst negotiating team in the world,against the best,the EU.
Who would you put your money on Davis or Barnier?
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

But you are missing point flecc. They should/ could have had a real kicking this time. The time to be truthful about feelings on leaving are obviously before we have finalised leaving.
48% of voting public( on a very high turn out) supported remain. Are you really saying had JC tapped into that he would not have got in, because I,m pretty sure he would have done.
Now, we simply will never know.
Next time will simply be too late. We,ll be out.
And,had JC had remain in his manifesto would labour actually been any worse off than they are now even if it hadn't got them into no. 10 ? Perhaps a couple of seats to UKIP was the worst scenario with being able to form a labour government being the best. At last election it was a no lose situation to back remain, but he still didn't. In 50 years time folk will look back in wonderment at Tories offering us Brexit and Labour not opposing it, even when going badly.Its all quite incredible.

How things have changed! we seem to have reached a point of convergence where our ideas are far closer than of late, as I already posted
" Brexit is one of those mysteries that will entertain Historians for generations to come.
They will examine whether Environmental ,Dietary or Media abuse gave rise to failure of the critical faculties of so many adults on an unprecedented scale, and their willingness to be mislead."
Perhaps I can add to that "Particularly among the Professional Politicians of all Parties, who seem to inhabit a Parallel universe where inverse logic applies"

 

[oldgroaner]

I am of the opinion,and always have been,that Brexit will be a disaster....Leavers think the opposite.....it seems a subject that there is no common ground. But,if Brexit is to be a success I think we can all agree that it needs the best negotiating team in the world,the 3 Brexiters appear to be the worst negotiating team in the world,against the best,the EU.
Who would you put your money on Davis or Barnier?
KudosDave

It is not the success or failure of these negotiations that will doom Brexit,
Our present overconfidence, incompetence , inefficiency, complacency and lack of industrial, technical and for that matter, any other of the multitude of skills, Long term vision and positive attitudes necessary for a nation to succeed are entirely lacking and the real reason it will fail.
We have in this smug and self assured mindset, the survival potential of Dodo's watching ships appear on the Horizon.
We are making ourselves willing victims for any well organised scavenger to feast on, and pick the bones clean.

Jonathan Pie has suggested May puts Suggestion Boxes around the HOC

 

[flecc]

In 50 years time folk will look back in wonderment at Tories offering us Brexit and Labour not opposing it, even when going badly.Its all quite incredible.

But if he'd opposed Brexit he would have lost the election, due to the Labour Brexiters voting UKIP instead. Remember the referendum result, those who opposed Brexit lost.

It was sitting on the fence which got JC in today's perfect situation, not by judgement but by sheer luck.
.

 

[Zlatan]

But if he'd opposed Brexit he would have lost the election, due to the Labour Brexiters voting UKIP instead. Remember the referendum result, those who opposed Brexit lost.

It was sitting on the fence which got JC in today's perfect situation, not by judgement but by sheer luck.
.

I,m sorry Flecc, just don't see it that way.
Has anyone ever made a success of sitting on fence? Like they say, if you sit on fence long enough eventually you,ll get electrocuted.
There was no gain in last election , he lost. Like you say, perhaps next time?

 

[Kudoscycles]

The Observer and Telegraph are saying that the Tories are considering a leadership contest,the rats want rid of their mother whilst she is on holiday,what a bunch of traitors these Tories are.
Surprise Davis is being considered as No 1 choice,Boris 2nd and Rees-Mogg 3rd.....I thought Davis is supposed to be our Brexit negotiator,who would want Boris the tart and R-M the dinosaur .....all committed to same Brexit as T-M so what is the point of removing her?
The EU would fall about laughing if we had another election,as if we aren't the joke of the world already. Aside from Brexit there are some very important problems that need government intervention and they seem impotent to even discuss,yet we are going to waste another few months on a leadership battle,these Tories have no shame all they are interested are their own pathetic power battles,which is also the reason the Tory right wingers want Brexit,they don't care about the country going down the pan whilst they squabble.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

I,m sorry Flecc, just don't see it that way.
Has anyone ever made a success of sitting on fence? Like they say, if you sit on fence long enough eventually you,ll get electrocuted.
There was no gain in last election , he lost. Like you say, perhaps next time?

J-C has a lot of remainers in his party but he also has a lot of ex UKIP voters ,within these voters are the Leavers who say ' We won ,you lost so let's get out'.....they are not sure what they won and jobs/the economy/benefits have not been hit hard enough to affect their lives.....T-M is doing a bad job of hastening the day when the penny will drop,or is that a good job?....when the penny drops that will be the time for J-C to suggest remain and he will win the next election,that may be too late for the country.
KudosDave

 

[Mal69]

We are making ourselves willing victims for any well organised scavenger to feast on, and pick the bones clean.

I have a feeling the rich and powerful people who behind the scenes pull the strings of the Tory party want just that.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I have a feeling the rich and powerful people who behind the scenes pull the strings of the Tory party want just that.

That was confirmed that with all the problems of the NHS,Social Care,deficit etc etc what did they want to vote for.....the return of fox hunting!!!....you can see IDS,Redwood,Bone and Rees-Mogg getting the 'old hunting pink' out of the robe....tally Ho!
When the election went sour it got forgotten about......wrong time 'Ol Boy',just need the right sort with the old school tie,can't trust a bit of skirt.
Was watching an old episode of 'Yes Minister' about handing the top jobs to the 'right sort',things haven't changed.
KudosDave

 

[Danidl]

they can pay with their debit or credit card or use local cash machines.
The premium over median exchange rate is about 3%, not 30%.

Official sterling to euro rate is 1.11 to 1.12
Cardiff sterling to euro 0.88.
Discrepancy is a ratio of 1 :1.26 ... Close to 30%.

 

[Danidl]

But if he'd opposed Brexit he would have lost the election, due to the Labour Brexiters voting UKIP instead. Remember the referendum result, those who opposed Brexit lost.

It was sitting on the fence which got JC in today's perfect situation, not by judgement but by sheer luck.
.

Flecc, I find myself in agreement with Zatlan on this. Surely if the majority of UK voters are now remainers, or even if there was only a swing of 2% , then the Labour viewpoint of a non Brexit or at most a very soft brexit , would have been carried. If you and others, including the leadership of the Labour party , believe that such a swing would not have happened or would not happen, then all those polls were wrong and just more wishful thinking. And frankly the British public deserve the problems a hard Brexit will provide.
By not providing an alternative, Labour would be complicit in the current situation.

The role of a serious political party is to achieve government, anything less is failure. Increasing the number of seats is fine, but unless it provides a platform for policy implementation, is hollow. Moral victories are fine on sports fields, but not in the real world.

 

[Woosh]

Surprise Davis is being considered as No 1 choice,Boris 2nd and Rees-Mogg 3rd.....I thought Davis is supposed to be our Brexit negotiator,who would want Boris the tart and R-M the dinosaur .....all committed to same Brexit as T-M so what is the point of removing her?

they all want their picture along the other PMs in No 10.

 

[Woosh]

the Leavers who say ' We won ,you lost so let's get out'..

and we don't care about the cost. Close our borders now!

That's what a guy who phoned in an LBC said.

I suspect he'll tell the world that he voted labour all his life.

 

[Woosh]

Surely if the majority of UK voters are now remainers, or even if there was only a swing of 2% , then the Labour viewpoint of a non Brexit or at most a very soft brexit , would have been carried.

tactical voting.
voters who take brexit issue to their heart will move to either ukip or libdems, losing them seats, if either of the two main parties come off the fence.
I suspect also that the percentage of brexiters in the labour party membership is higher than in the population at large.

 

[oldtom]

The media didn't make a song and dance about the appointment of Vince Cable as leader of the laughable demo-rat party but I think he is perfect for the job as he has made a career out of operating under any flag of convenience.

It's all about self-aggrandisement for politicians and Cable is no exception. Owen Jones, Labour supporter, minor journalist, blogger and himself a great self-promoter tweeted this about Cable and illustrates how his tenure as an MP has seen him supporting tory policies while pretending to be a laughable demo-rat.

Anyone who does not know this man's background should read his history as recorded in Wikipedia for example. The only commitment this creature has ever shown is towards his own career. Needless to say, he was granted a knighthood!

This is all one needs to know about Cable:


Among other material from various social media to catch my eye are these infographics:



Amazing! One, he doesn't need the money and two, he has done nothing in his parliamentary career to earn such a salary. First-class club member though!

Then there's this:


Par for the course, I suppose!

B-liar has been self-promoting increasingly of late, presumably because he has been told nothing will happen to him in spite of 'Chilcot' and he now wants to resume his Murdoch-backed role as the alternative tory leader - anyone but Corbyn!



Dave Elderfield has previously remarked on the fact that our part-time 'Brexit' negotiators have decided their own interests come before those of the nation by taking family holidays while leaving the negotiations on the back burner. It provides an alternative meaning to the term 'zero hours contract', I suppose!

Well, when any 'Brexit' will do and the future is a knighthood and elevation to the HofL anyway, why not?

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

tactical voting.
voters who take brexit issue to their heart will move to either ukip or libdems, losing them seats, if either of the two main parties come off the fence.
I suspect also that the percentage of brexiters in the labour party membership is higher than in the population at large.

Rather large assumptions Woosh...
If voters want to remain so much why should they revert to UKIP ? A remain campaign for any party would unify remain into a single entity,not spread across goodness how many parties.( especially so if they were the only party campaigning on remain)
Post Brexit there is nothing to stop Tories splitting that vote!

 

[Woosh]

Rather large assumptions Woosh...
If voters want to remain so much why should they revert to UKIP ? A remain campaign for any party would unify remain into a single entity,not spread across goodness how many parties.( especially so if they were the only party campaigning on remain)
Post Brexit there is nothing to stop Tories splitting that vote!

no, the other way.
If labour comes off the fence, they will have to concede that having cake is incompatible with eating it and membership of single market or customs union is essential to avoid losing jobs and FDI, they will be forced to say that the choice is the same as the EU has said, between hard brexit and no brexit, and they won't do any better than the tories at negotiating.
They'll lose a chunk of staunch brexiters to ukip and a bunch of remainers to the libdems at the next GE and JC will not become PM.
What is best for the country is for labour to win another 25-30 seats from the tories and be forced into a coalition with the SNP or libdems or better still, both.