Brexit, for once some facts.

[tillson]

So here's a view point from someone with a lot more knowledge then me.

Is this what you voted for Tillson? Or do you think this outlook is far fetched?

Having read the article, my instinc tells me that this is written by someone who is very much pro the EU. There are clues in the language. For example, the referendum result is spun with the phrase, only 37% voted to leave the EU. Which to add balance, could be written as only 35% voted remain within the EU. The article is not balanced it is full of anti-EU and anti-Tory agenda and it is biased. That does not mean that the article isn't true of course, and it doesn't necessarily mean that the predictions are incorrect.

So to answer your question, the content of the article is not what I voted for, but I attach very little credibility to it for the reasons that I have stated. No doubt you do find the article credible and therefore find my stance incredible!

 

[oldgroaner]

realise that you have no faith in the UK and consider the population to be worthless inward looking fascists, so expect the deal to be poor. I have more faith in the country and expect good exit terms. That's why I support BREXIT.

Ignoring your previous bad manners and foul remarks on the grounds you really can't help yourself, you are as usual way off target.

I consider the Tory Party as worthless inward looking Fascists, not the Public,
The exit terms are irrelevant, as whatever they may be, the one certaintly is that the Government will as always make a total pigs ear of running the country to the detriment of the public, but to the betterment of the Bank Balances of the rich.

Yet despite the fact that this is obvious from past experience there will still be enough people dumb enough to vote them back into power.
People with the sort of blinkered vision you suffer from are easily convinced into believing what they are told.
The referendum gave proof that this is true.
Bexit will not be a failure due to " the population being worthless inward looking fascists,"
But because the Government is!

 

[tillson]

Ignoring your previous bad manners and foul remarks on the grounds you really can't help yourself, you are as usual way off target.

I consider the Tory Party as worthless inward looking Fascists, not the Public,
The exit terms are irrelevant, as whatever they may be, the one certaintly is that the Government will as always make a total pigs ear of running the country to the detriment of the public, but to the betterment of the Bank Balances of the rich.

Yet despite the fact that this is obvious from past experience there will still be enough people dumb enough to vote them back into power.
People with the sort of blinkered vision you suffer from are easily conviced into believing what they are told.
The referendum gave proof that this is true.
Bexit will not be a failure due to " the population being worthless inward looking fascists,"
But because the Government is!

Apologies for any offence caused in previous posts. You have my best wishes.

There is still an unanswered question. If the Tory party are inward looking Fascists, why do they support us remaining within the EU? Why did their leader and chancellor, both friends of the corrupt banking system, big business, welfare cuts, private NHS and off-shore tax havens, place their jobs on the line and ultimately lose them, all in the name of continued EU membership? Why would they have done that if BREXIT supposedly oils the gears of these greedy institutions? It makes no sense unless it is EU membership which oils the gears?

 

[tillson]

Given the anti-EU elements in some other EU countries, the deal the UK gets cannot be seen to be good.

That would only attract more to departure, which the EU will not risk.

The signs are already there, first the disclosure that it could cost us as much as £60 billions to leave and now the EU claim for £1.5 billions in uncollected duties. They are making it look painful already, and there will be more like it to come.
.

If the EU offer us the worst possible exit terms, I think Mrs May will be coming home with £60 Billion+ in her cat-suit pocket. What can the EU do, give us a deal worse than the worst possible deal? I don't think so.

I am very optimistic that something favourable will be agreed. the U.K. is a big economy within the EU. I know there are 20 odd other countries to absorb some of it, but many of these are takers from the EU and our economy size is worth 10 of the smaller members. When you remove the UK from the pie chart, it leave a big and significant hole which will prove to be a major headache for the EU. I'm certain they will want to keep that hole as small as possible and our exit terms or even continued membership will be more favourable for the UK in the long term.

 

[flecc]

If the EU offer us the worst possible exit terms, I think Mrs May will be coming home with £60 Billion+ in her cat-suit pocket. What can the EU do, give us a deal worse than the worst possible deal? I don't think so.

I am very optimistic that something favourable will be agreed. the U.K. is a big economy within the EU. I know there are 20 odd other countries to absorb some of it, but many of these are takers from the EU and our economy size is worth 10 of the smaller members.

It's politics, so i can already say with confidence what the deal will consist of.

It will be a mix of the bad and the good for each side.

Then the EU for it's part will publicise all that the UK suffered in leaving without mentioning the concessions, while our politicians will spin all the good elements we got while playing down all the bad parts.

With honour satisfied all the politicians will be content.
.

 

[tillson]

It's politics, so i can already say with confidence what the deal will consist of.

It will be a mix of the bad and the good for each side.

Then the EU for it's part will publicise all that the UK suffered in leaving without mentioning the concessions, while our politicians will spin all the good elements we got while playing down all the bad parts.

With honour satisfied all the politicians will be content.
.

I totally agree.

Hustle's the name of the game and nice guys get washed away like the snow and the rain

There'll be a load of compromising on the road to the BREXIT horizon, but Mrs May is gonna be where the lights are shining on her. If she pulls it off, she will be getting cards and letters from people she dosen't even know.

If she returns to the UK victorious post BREXIT negotiations, it could be like riding a horse in star spangled rodeo!

 

[oldtom]

It really is embarrassing to read 'tillson's' fantasies about 'Brexit' and the kind of government we have now in the UK spread across these pages.

Perhaps 'tillson' still doesn't get the fact that everything he has been led to believe about politics is predicated entirely on lies and subterfuge.



The former chancellor has now secured a nice little earner for himself from exactly the people that tory policies help, not on account of any fiscal talents he has ever demonstrated.

Wake up 'tillson' and stop believing the lies the tory media continuously presents for your edification. You have been brainwashed all your life yet history informs us that the greatest achievements of the UK in modern history were brought to fruition under a Labour government.

I explained previously which sectors of society the tory Party represents and you attempted to ridicule that while a tory chancellor was breaking a promise to the British nation. There is no trickle-down effect to be gained by a PAYE-controlled working population supporting the self-serving rich mafia. Tories misuse governmental authority to line the pockets of the kind of people prepared to 'employ' George Osborne at £650,000 p.a.

It is exactly because the country's wealth, industries and great pillars of state have all been raped by the tories that the country's debt has increased hugely. It is not through having a welfare state and a cradle-to-grave NHS or because we have accepted a few thousand refugees and EU immigrants. Other nations have taken in far, far more desperate human beings than the UK and that is to our shame. Sadly 'tillson', you and others like you have no shame. You live in a bubble where the milk of human kindness is conspicuous only by its absence.

Tom

 

[tillson]

I totally agree.

It really is embarrassing to read 'tillson's' fantasies about 'Brexit' and the kind of government we have now in the UK spread across these pages.

Perhaps 'tillson' still doesn't get the fact that everything he has been led to believe about politics is predicated entirely on lies and subterfuge.

View attachment 18093

The former chancellor has now secured a nice little earner for himself from exactly the people that tory policies help, not on account of any fiscal talents he has ever demonstrated.

Wake up 'tillson' and stop believing the lies the tory media continuously presents for your edification. You have been brainwashed all your life yet history informs us that the greatest achievements of the UK in modern history were brought to fruition under a Labour government.

I explained previously which sectors of society the tory Party represents and you attempted to ridicule that while a tory chancellor was breaking a promise to the British nation. There is no trickle-down effect to be gained by a PAYE-controlled working population supporting the self-serving rich mafia. Tories misuse governmental authority to line the pockets of the kind of people prepared to 'employ' George Osborne at £650,000 p.a.

It is exactly because the country's wealth, industries and great pillars of state have all been raped by the tories that the country's debt has increased hugely. It is not through having a welfare state and a cradle-to-grave NHS or because we have accepted a few thousand refugees and EU immigrants. Other nations have taken in far, far more desperate human beings than the UK and that is to our shame. Sadly 'tillson', you and others like you have no shame. You live in a bubble where the milk of human kindness is conspicuous only by its absence.

Tom

Your passage is still contaminated by one sidedness and it doesn't answer the question as to why the Conservative party are anti-BREXIT. You need to re-visit your passage and reconstruct it from the bottom upwards using a wholistic approach. It really is utter nonsense as it stands.

I liked yesterday's budget, particularly the investment in Grammar Schools.

 

[flecc]

Mrs May is gonna be where the lights are shining on her. If she pulls it off, she will be getting cards and letters from people she dosen't even know. - - - - If she returns to the UK victorious post BREXIT negotiations, it could be like riding a horse in star spangled rodeo!

The Grimm Brothers used to write stories like that, they tended to begin "Once upon a time" and end "and they all lived happily ever after".

As German citizens, they were prophetically right with that ending - - - - - for the EU.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I liked yesterday's budget, particularly the investment in Grammar Schools.

and yet the experts... people like the NUT don't think Grammar Schools are a good idea.

Another example of something that may be popular, but isn't for the good of the country, it just benefits the top small %. Now what does that remind me of???

 

[oldgroaner]

Apologies for any offence caused in previous posts. You have my best wishes.

There is still an unanswered question. If the Tory party are inward looking Fascists, why do they support us remaining within the EU? Why did their leader and chancellor, both friends of the corrupt banking system, big business, welfare cuts, private NHS and off-shore tax havens, place their jobs on the line and ultimately lose them, all in the name of continued EU membership? Why would they have done that if BREXIT supposedly oils the gears of these greedy institutions? It makes no sense unless it is EU membership which oils the gears?

Apologies accepted, I know that you are simply frustrated at my apparent intransigence, but I have good cause.
Let me send that back at you, why have they changed tack so completely?
Doesn't that ring alarm bells in your head?
Why the sudden change of heart? could they suddenly have really become enamoured of "The Will of the people" and about turn on their previous loyalties?
The chance of that being true must be worse than the odds of winning the lottery
And if the Tory party are NOT for some reason still in favour of what you you describe membership of the EU "Oils the gears of the greedy institutions"
What has changed?
Were they living a lie before
Or ar they living a lie now?
We are told that our economy grows, yet also that it is propped up as follows.
80% Services industry
20% Manufacturing
And at least 50% of our income is from trade in both to the EU.
Lets imagine the time we are out of the EU
Which can we find markets for first?
Manufacturing?
Services?
In neither case can we provide something that can't be sourced elsewhere Quicker, cheaper or better.

We don't even have enough ships of our own to export our goods, nor a Navy to Protect them, and in order to "protect our borders" will have the additional expense of all the paraphenalia that goes with customs controls in and out of the country at additional cost to the customer.

Sorry but the whole idea of being too weak to hold our own in the EU led to a vote to takes our collective ball home, and like a tortoise we wound our necks in and pulled up the drawbridge and the Government goes along with it afraid of trouble.
That smacks of cowardice.

A retreat like that against mild opposition hardly fills me with any hope that can proudly go out there into a highly competitive world,virtually without a manufacturing base it can call our own and relying on nothing more than an incompetent Government, trust to luck do more than simply enter decline.

This can be summed up in three simple questions.

1. Why are the Conservatives hell bent on Brexit
2. Who are the intended beneficiaries?
3. Does anyone actually believe the Torys will help the poor needy and sick?

 

[oldgroaner]

I totally agree.

Hustle's the name of the game and nice guys get washed away like the snow and the rain

There'll be a load of compromising on the road to the BREXIT horizon, but Mrs May is gonna be where the lights are shining on her. If she pulls it off, she will be getting cards and letters from people she dosen't even know.

If she returns to the UK victorious post BREXIT negotiations, it could be like riding a horse in star spangled rodeo!

No matter what is achieved the Press will present it as a "Great Victory" when in fact it is the overture to a farce.

 

[tillson]

and yet the experts... people like the NUT don't think Grammar Schools are a good idea.

Another example of something that may be popular, but isn't for the good of the country, it just benefits the top small %. Now what does that remind me of???

I don't know if you read my account of the two young women (twin sisters) who are members of a Triathlon club that I belong to. Both from poor backgrounds, both living with their low paid working parents in social housing. Both won scholarships to the grammar school. One studied medicine at Birmingham and is now a doctor. The other went to Cambridge and now works in the pharmaceuticals industry.

The area where they lived is packed full of benefits claimants going back generations. The local school is garbage because of unruly uninterested children. Without that grammar school, these talented young women would never have realised their fantastic achievements.

So I am very much in favour of grammar schools. They present those who are prepared to work hard with great opportunities. More opportunities likes grammar schools is what is needed, not shovelling cash into the pockets of the lazy to make people like you feel better about themselves.

Investment in choice and opportunity every time for me. If the lazy choose not to take up opportunities, (training, grammar schools, help into work, tax cuts for low paid workers etc) then that's their own doing.

 

[flecc]

This can be summed up in three simple questions.

1. Why are the Conservatives hell bent on Brexit
2. Who are the intended beneficiaries?
3. Does anyone actually believe the Torys will help the poor needy and sick?.

Only the answer to the first question is necessary as you'll see from the following.

For some 50 years now this country has been living beyond its means and surviving with an ever increasing debt. Either there has to be substantial growth in earnings or we all have to shift to a lower standard of living commensurate with our means.

The first of increasing our earnings isn't possible in today's highly competitive world while we reward ourselves at present levels, so the second option of a lower standard of living with lower incomes is the only solution to reach a national income/expenditure balance.

But how can any political party persuade us to drastically reduce our standard of living? Normally that would be impossible.

But suddenly now a solution has presented itself. The people have voted to leave the EU, so the decline in living standards that's engineered can be presented as due to their choice and the poor deal the EU has given us.

Then once achieving the necessary much lower wages and living standards with a balanced economy, the government will then negotiate rejoining the EU. With the economy then in balance and us being even better placed in EU trading as a result, they will be able to present the brighter outcome as being due to their successful management.

This whole program will take nearer ten years than five to complete.
.

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

I don't know if you read my account of the two young women (twin sisters) who are members of a Triathlon club that I belong to. Both from poor backgrounds, both living with their low paid working parents in social housing. Both won scholarships to the grammar school. One studied medicine at Birmingham and is now a doctor. The other went to Cambridge and now works in the pharmaceuticals industry.

The area where they lived is packed full of benefits claimants going back generations. The local school is garbage because of unruly uninterested children. Without that grammar school, these talented young women would never have realised their fantastic achievements.

So I am very much in favour of grammar schools. They present those who are prepared to work hard with great opportunities. More opportunities likes grammar schools is what is needed, not shovelling cash into the pockets of the lazy to make people like you feel better about themselves.

Investment in choice and opportunity every time for me. If the lazy choose not to take up opportunities, (training, grammar schools, help into work, tax cuts for low paid workers etc) then that's their own doing.

You might be in favour, and you might have a specific example upon which your opinion is based. Those kids would have done just as well at any school because they wanted to work hard.

The point I made is that you might be wrong when you look at the national picture and what the experts think is best. I'm an ex teacher, I worked in a wide range of schools and I don't agree with you.

 

[oldtom]

Your passage is still contaminated by one sidedness and it doesn't answer the question as to why the Conservative party are anti-BREXIT.

'tillson', there is nothing wrong with my passage and, oddly, the test kit for bowel cancer arrived in the post today so in a few weeks' time, I shall hopefully have a letter from the NHS confirming that fact which I could copy to you if you wish.

The tory scum are not at all anti-'Brexit', indeed they are largely for the idea and intend to use secession in order to strip away yet more human rights, workers' rights and H&S legislation to add to the diminishing sources of recourse available to ordinary citizens. Remember, this is what fascists do! Already, the evil-intentioned führer has secured the ability to eavesdrop on all forms of communication including social media and we have become the most CCTV-saturated country in the world. Again, this is about control; about, not just power but absolute power.

The tory Party and their rich friends just aren't team players, and any kind of democratic institution is simply anathema to them. They seek the freedom to do whatever they want, to whomever they like without any moderating restraint by the majority of club members. Idiots, just like you, think it's a wonderful idea to live under a combined plutocracy and oligarchy, where the weakest are bullied and mistreated by the rich, land-owning dictators. In your perverse bubble, you imagine that anachronisms such as Grammar Schools are a good thing. Even though the experts and those who have personal experience of educating our young people have repeatedly made clear, the Grammar School system is a flawed and divisive method of education and should be consigned to history.

Of course, we have already heard previously from the fascists you revere that experts know nothing and shouldn't be listened to!

As you are a complete alien to the human race 'tillson', I'm sure the normal inhabitants of planet Earth, including myself, would like to know some more about your feelings towards the human race in general. Perhaps you could indulge us further?

Tom

 

[oldtom]

I hate to come across as patronising but I'm bound to say 'flecc's' post #12995 is a masterpiece of ABC, (accuracy, brevity and clarity). I just wish I could articulate so much in so few words.

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Only the answer to the first question is necessary as you'll see from the following.

For some 50 years now this country has been living beyond its means and surviving with an ever increasing debt. Either there has to be substantial growth in earnings or we all have to shift to a lower standard of living commensurate with our means.

The first of increasing our earnings isn't possible in today's highly competitive world while we reward ourselves at present levels, so the second option of a lower standard of living with lower incomes is the only solution to reach a national income/expenditure balance.

But how can any political party persuade us to drastically reduce our standard of living? Normally that would be impossible.

But suddenly now a solution has presented itself. The people have voted to leave the EU, so the decline in living standards that's engineered can be presented as due to their choice and the poor deal the EU has given us.

Then once achieving the necessary much lower wages and living standards with a balanced economy, the government will then negotiate rejoining the EU. With the economy then in balance and us being even better placed in EU trading as a result, they will be able to present the brighter outcome as being due to their successful management.

This whole program will take nearer ten years than five to complete.
.

Absolutely spot on Flecc, the amazing thing is that Brexit Voters fail to understand what is about to happen to them.

 

[Wicky]

Following the budget : http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-39215405

"The UK is on course for an unprecedented 15 years of spending cuts and lost pay growth the Resolution Foundation said.
It will leave the poorest third of households worse off than in the years after the financial crisis, it said."

Add the effects of continuing austerity and austerity plus to come with Brexit, as further public spending cuts come into effect and working folk are milked relentlessly to prop up what's left - It'll be interesting how long the Tories will manage to claim credit for or deflecting the blame for the utter mess they are making.

 

[Kudoscycles]

I don't know about that. I haven't seen any evidence to support such a notion.



A futile exercise with an audience of defeatists.

How good, or the Pros of BREXIT will depend on how good the exit deal is. For example, if we could freely choose which elements of the EU we wanted to dispense with (membership contributions and free movement for example) but retain tariff free access to the single market, that would be a good deal and have many pros. The problem is we, the public, don't know what we are likely to get. oldgroaner and old tom who despise and have no belief in their country will tell you we are a worthless nation, fit only to beg for crumbs in exchange for licking the boots of the EU leaders.

I like to think we are better than that. I don't think we will achieve what I have said above, but I believe the final deal will be better for the country in the long term than what we have now.

So without knowing what the deal is, it isn't possible to say what the pros are or will be. At this stage it is aspirational and that is linked to the individual's optimism. oldgraoner and old tom, will be along after reading this to tell us that the UK is full of worthless fascist scum and that any hope of a deal is scuppered before we even start. However, they are tragic old farts and I like to think that I posses a more positive outlook. But then they confuse optimism with delusion and so it goes on. This is the difficulty that BREXIT has with the audience on this thread.





I never knew Nigel Farage was that old. Hasn't he aged remarkably well?




This is excellent news and hopefully the start of great reform of our education system. These schools give pupils who are prepared to work a real chance to escape from the dross who inevitably drag them down to their level and who also hinder the progress of pupils with a strong work ethic.

No doubt the Labour MPs who pay for their children to be privately educated will be violently opposed to the news though.

We have a Grammar School close by to where I live and I can give you an example of how these marvellous institutions work. I am a member of a local triathlon club and there are two young women, twins, who are also members. They are from a very run down area consisting mainly of social housing and their parents both work in low paid jobs. Both girls won scholarships to the Grammar School. One went to Birmingham University and is now a Doctor and the other went to Cambridge and works for a pharmaceutical company. Both are very competitive, hardworking and capable. If it had not been for that Grammar School, given their background, they would never have achieved what they have today. It is nothing to do with privilege or money. It is everything to do with helping ones self and being prepared to put the work and the effort in. This notion of "disadvantaged" is just shorthand for lazy, idle gits who want a Labour MP to tip a flatbed lorry load of money on their drive in exchange for doing FA.

Bring on the Grammar School, I am liking the way this government is heading.



£3 billion for social care?

£2billion for social care and spread over 3 years.
The raid on the self employed NIC was stupid politically especially not long after workplace pensions and at same time as rip off business rates.
What was the matter with Theresa May yesterday,she appeared to have lost it?
I am a grammar school boy and my wife also,we were paid to go through uni and getting a good job after was easy....compare that to the debts our children ex uni are saddled with,the near impossibility of owning a house unless mum n dad help and the zero hours contracts that disguise the true unemployment situation and Brexit making it difficult for them to work/travel in Europe doesnt look a good time for young entrepreneurs,then Hammond stupidly hits them with NIC increases.
Nope this government do not give me any confidence of negotiating a good deal with Europe and ultimately those in work will pay for this stupid experiment.
KudosDave