Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

then we have to pay for it.
Maybe the future cost of brexit will make enough people change their mind and want us to rejoin but at the moment, it is unlikely. I don't see that happens, not in England.

Actually only a Quarter of the population voted for this insanity and Three Quarters will have to pay for it without wanting to do so, which means in my view two things

1. We are being stupid to leave the EU
2. We will end up back in there after much suffering.

But then this is the end result of pandering to the idiotic right wing for over a Generation, Tory rule always end in disaster, even if takes time, rather like body rot on a car.
By the time we get back the deficit will have passed £2Trillion at Flank speed.

 

[Woosh]

by then, the EU will be different.
http://www.politico.eu/article/breaking-politico-obtains-white-paper-on-eu-future/

5 scenarios, including “doing less more efficiently,”
I still think we are unlikely to rejoin for the next 20 years.

 

[oldtom]

White Paper on the possible Future of the EU 27 states:

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-385_en.htm

Thanks for posting that 'shemozzle999'. It's an interesting piece and it will be equally interesting to watch how the 27 remaining member states perform after the UK secession.

Clearly, there are many problems to be addressed but the institution has lasted for 60 years so far, always evolving. All countries have problems inside or out of large federations - the USA is a good example - but they always seem to overcome their difficulties and disagreements without going to war.

The rise of right-wing extremism in various parts of the world is a worry for me and when people start voting for such people, that provides them with the oxygen of publicity. There are several parallels which can be drawn between the 1930s in Europe and what is happening today. It's very easy to dismiss those fears but we do so at our peril.

That the UK has become the prime mover in possibly dismantling the EU is a source of sadness to me and will suit Mr Putin very well. With a lunatic in office in the USA and a British PM who fawns all over him, I believe the world has suddenly become a more dangerous place in recent months.

Thanks again,
Tom

 

[oldtom]

I still think we are unlikely to rejoin for the next 20 years.

A lot of things can happen in 20 years. Who would have thought in 1919, when the troops were coming home from 'the war to end all wars' that 20 years on, the Europeans would again be involved in a major conflict?

Keeping Europe together with all the diverse yet common interests, for the last half-century, enabling free trade and an end to fishing disputes and a more sensible approach to farming than existed previously, has demonstrated how society can evolve peacefully and grow together in friendship. That has been the major success of the concept which we nowadays call the EU.

Why would anyone wish that peace and slow but steady shared prosperity to be discontinued?

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

by then, the EU will be different.
http://www.politico.eu/article/breaking-politico-obtains-white-paper-on-eu-future/

5 scenarios, including “doing less more efficiently,”
I still think we are unlikely to rejoin for the next 20 years.

And living in a backwater while more adult nations thrive, and all because we are afraid of strangers and can't compete, but deluded ourselves we could do so.
And Europe may well have changed to being militarily powerful, hostile and just across the Channel
Something we have always quite rightly learned to fear.
And the sad thing is that we could have prevented that possibility but Greed blinded the Politicians and they in turn misled the voters.

 

[oldgroaner]

A lot of things can happen in 20 years. Who would have thought in 1919, when the troops were coming home from 'the war to end all wars' that 20 years on, the Europeans would again be involved in a major conflict?

Keeping Europe together with all the diverse yet common interests, for the last half-century, enabling free trade and an end to fishing disputes and a more sensible approach to farming than existed previously, has demonstrated how society can evolve peacefully and grow together in friendship. That has been the major success of the concept which we nowadays call the EU.

Why would anyone wish that peace and slow but steady shared prosperity to be discontinued?

Tom

Because hope of personal advantage drives people more than common sense?
They know the cost of everything and the value of Nothing, and they fear having to adapt to change, but cover up that fear by making labelling a retrograde step back to a small insular nation "Patriotic"

It really demostrates that our politicians can't hold their own in anything bigger that an offshore island, the Europeans clearly have them beat.
And the icing on the cake? we field three imbeciles as our "A" team to negotiate terms of Divorce!

 

[tillson]

Actually only a Quarter of the population voted for this insanity and Three Quarters will have to pay for it without wanting to do so, which means in my view two things

1. We are being stupid to leave the EU
2. We will end up back in there after much suffering.

But then this is the end result of pandering to the idiotic right wing for over a Generation, Tory rule always end in disaster, even if takes time, rather like body rot on a car.
By the time we get back the deficit will have passed £2Trillion at Flank speed.

With this statement, you have assumed that those who didn't vote would have voted to remain if they had voted. The statement is therefore fatally flawed, rendering meaningless.

Similar assumptions can be found in many other posts you have made.

 

[tillson]

With this statement, you have assumed that those who didn't vote would have voted to remain if they had voted. It could be equally argued that the non voters would have chosen to leave. This would have given leave 75% of hhr vote. The statement is therefore fatally flawed, rendering meaningless.

Similar assumptions can be found in many other posts you have made.

 

[oldgroaner]

With this statement, you have assumed that those who didn't vote would have voted to remain if they had voted. The statement is therefore fatally flawed, rendering meaningless.

Similar assumptions can be found in many other posts you have made.

No, once again you don't bother to read my posts do you? or are you saying that the other three quarters want to pay for Brexit? when they didn't vote for it why would they do that?
You statement is the one that is flawed mine was Factual
I have assumed nothing simply reported a Fact
The unassailable fact is that three quarters of the Population DID NOT vote for Brexit, but will end up paying for it.
"Three Quarters will have to pay for it without wanting to do so,"is what I posted no if's buts or maybees.
You need to work on your spin delivery, it's not working was well as it should, or are you using "Fake News" instead?

I love that admission in the last line , just substitute "I" for "you"
"Similar assumptions can be found in many other posts you have made."

 

[oldtom]

You're repeating yourself Tommy!

Tom

 

[oldtom]

The woman who, in the absence of any serious conservative MP with a spine and a social conscience, occupies the office of Prime Minister, has her credentials examined by Nick Cohen and I think he has pretty well nailed it with his appraisal of her.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/oct/30/theresa-may-lie-and-lied-to-become-prime-minister?CMP=share_btn_fb

Tom

 

[OxygenJames]

Yes, I knew you hadn't been around for a long time, the forum's active membership continues to churn all the time with past names occasionally returning as you have now. Martin seems to have largely dropped out of active posting, his policy of only servicing the Bosch equipped bikes he sells being unpopular and also a war of words with KTM's Col who is very anti dongles and derestriction.

My winter riding disappeared due to worsening Raynauds syndrome, hand circulation ceasing at increasingly higher temperatures, regardless of any type of gloves. During the better months I'm busy with various wildlife interests meaning more countryside walking than riding, and being over 80 with some intermittent heart problems doesn't help. So cycling has almost disappeared and I'll probably not bother at all shortly, since it would need a new battery to continue.

My legal interest has always mainly concerned e-bike and associated laws, but now we are settled on the well understood EU rules since April 2015, not much crops up about that now.
.

Thanks - and you seem in reasonable spirits so that's good to hear.

 

[flecc]

Thanks - and you seem in reasonable spirits so that's good to hear.

Yes, still enjoy life and have always welcomed each new age milestone reached. I've never understood those who want to live for ever, what a dreadful prospect. Enough to prompt one to suicide!
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Dave - me neither. Not significant. Petrol is up around 124p here when it was almost at one pound a year back - food is the main thing and that's not changed much. Energy is going up but I found this tiny energy company in Birmingham who were 30% cheaper than E-on - though their customer service is diabolical but so far the gas and electricity remain switched on. I get my kicks walking the dog and my personal break even is about as low as its been all my life - no debts other than the mortgage - cook our own food - don't drink much or go to pubs (where they charge the same price for one glass of wine as a whole bottle costs at home).

From the time I was 14 getting up at 4.30am to do a paper round so I could have more pocket money than my parents would give me - I've never had much of an issue with money. Learned the hard way in my 20s not to use credit cards if you're not paying them back every month in full. Etc.

But prices going up? Oh they will. They always do. But then so can your wages. I had 3 jobs at once before - other times I lived off my savings for almost a year doing almost nothing. And I know some people need help. Its making sure only the genuine ones get it thats the challenge. Otherwise we're back to the Socialism idea.

Wages won't go up,recent costs on business including min wage increase,workplace pensions,business rates,insurance costs and purchase increases due to the weak pound are ensuring that substantial wage rises will not happen for years ahead.
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

The leader of the UKIP gang, an even bigger liar than most of the right-wing extremists supported by the rest of the tory Party, is poised to submit some fantastic expenses claims.

Liverpool to Stoke is one thing but he's now claiming backdated subs for some of his missions prior to becoming the Don of Dons in the UKIP branch of the tory Party. Here's a selection:

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

Daily Express this morning
They've found something to blame other than Brexit!
"
WARNING: Average family in Britain facing £5,000-a-YEAR drop in living standards
THE average UK household is facing a £5,000-a-year overall hit to living standards by 2021/22 as a result of the slow recovery from the 2008 crash, with low-income families with children faring worst of all, a new report has warned.

The long-term impact of the 2008 economic crash and the "tepid" recovery means that median household incomes will be 18 per cent lower in 2021/22 in real terms than they would have been if pre-crash trends had continued, the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) found.
The "historically weak" income growth is the equivalent of more than £5,000 for each family
And benefit cuts planned by the Government mean that the poorest 15 per cent of the population will have lower incomes in five years' time than they do now, reversing the recent move towards reduced inequality, said the IFS.
Absolute child poverty is predicted to rise from 27.5 per cent in 2014/15 to 30 per cent in 2021/22, "entirely" as a result of the direct impact of tax and benefit reforms planned for this Parliament, found the economic think tank.

This "Will of the People" comes with a heavy price, doesn't it?
Do you think the Public will be stupid enough for FALL for it?:

 

[oldtom]

I guess most Americans have never read 'Nineteen eighty-four' by George Orwell. In fact, I doubt whether many Americans have even heard of George Orwell.

This analogous, pictorial mock-up is painfully close to the truth in 2017 America.



Tom

 

[tillson]

Daily Express this morning
They've found something to blame other than Brexit!
"
WARNING: Average family in Britain facing £5,000-a-YEAR drop in living standards
THE average UK household is facing a £5,000-a-year overall hit to living standards by 2021/22 as a result of the slow recovery from the 2008 crash, with low-income families with children faring worst of all, a new report has warned.

The long-term impact of the 2008 economic crash and the "tepid" recovery means that median household incomes will be 18 per cent lower in 2021/22 in real terms than they would have been if pre-crash trends had continued, the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS) found.
The "historically weak" income growth is the equivalent of more than £5,000 for each family
And benefit cuts planned by the Government mean that the poorest 15 per cent of the population will have lower incomes in five years' time than they do now, reversing the recent move towards reduced inequality, said the IFS.
Absolute child poverty is predicted to rise from 27.5 per cent in 2014/15 to 30 per cent in 2021/22, "entirely" as a result of the direct impact of tax and benefit reforms planned for this Parliament, found the economic think tank.

This "Will of the People" comes with a heavy price, doesn't it?
Do you think the Public will be stupid enough for FALL for it?:

..............or alternatively it is actually due to Labour's financial mismanagement of the economy and nothing at all to do with BREXIT.

 

[tillson]

Keith Vaz.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keith_Vaz


And still he remains in The Labour Party. What a corrupt party they are. Who would ever vote for them?

 

[oldgroaner]

..............or alternatively it is actually due to Labour's financial mismanagement of the economy and nothing at all to do with BREXIT.

Hang on a little, no doubt conveniently you have forgotten five things.

1. Labour was last in power in 1945
2. Since the crash the Tories managed to borrow more in five years than new Labour did in Eighteen!
3. The Tories wanted to Deregulate the banks even Further than New Labour did, which allowed them to cause the crash
4. The Conservatives have been in power for how long? and made matters Far, Far worse!
   
5. The spin you are presenting is just another piece of Fake News! Labour didn't cause the crash look to the good old US of A and the Bankers for that.

Do you really think the Public won't connect falling living standards with Brexit?
Ho, Ho Blooming Ho!
Highly amusing, you had better hope so! Blaming New Labour all those years ago? you might as well blame William the Conqueror!
Tell that to the Riot Police!