Brexit, for once some facts.

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

If that is what you would like to believe, please continue.

ps I forgot to mention Storm Dorris in my list of possible factors. Gizapeerage Chakrabarti has just been on the news blaming the storm. Today just gets funnier and funnier.

you do realise you're now arguing with me about the definition of a fact?

I'm simply saying that what you've said "brexit is happening" isn't a hard fact as your described it. Currently nothing is happening. Nothing has happened since June, that a long time of nothing. A50 is planned, and brexit is planned, but its not happening yet, and its not certain it will happen, even it A50 is triggered.

Something that hasn't happened yet, can't be a fact.

 

[tillson]

you do realise you're now arguing with me about the definition of a fact?

I'm simply saying that what you've said "brexit is happening" isn't a hard fact as your described it. Currently nothing is happening. Nothing has happened since June, that a long time of nothing. A50 is planned, and brexit is planned, but its not happening yet, and its not certain it will happen, even it A50 is triggered.

You really are a sore loser!

BREXIT is happening and that is a fact.

"Happening" is activity associated with an event and this include acts which are preparatory. Preparatory acts associated with BREXIT have taken place so BREXIT is therefore happening. This makes it a fact, end of story.

I can't believe that I am indulging you.

 

[Danidl]

You really are a sore loser!

BREXIT is happening and that is a fact.

"Happening" is activity associated with an event and this include acts which are preparatory. Preparatory acts associated with BREXIT have taken place so BREXIT is therefore happening. This makes it a fact, end of story.

I can't believe that I am indulging you.

... Actually nothing in a legal sense has happened to progress the brexit agenda. Your parliament is faffing about the rules of engagement, and has not yet entered the ring. The brexit process commences the day after a certain letter is in the postbox of Brussels. The brexit process terminates some two years later.
The regrets commence the following year.

 

[tillson]

... Actually nothing in a legal sense has happened to progress the brexit agenda. Your parliament is faffing about the rules of engagement, and has not yet entered the ring. The brexit process commences the day after a certain letter is in the postbox of Brussels. The brexit process terminates some two years later.
The regrets commence the following year.

I really can't be bothered.

 

[flecc]

I really can't be bothered.

. I almost couldn't be, then thought "What the hell":

The Brexit Sequence

Ambition, Referendum, Advisory request, Intention of PM, Intention of government, Article 50 notice served, Negotiations commence, Agreement secured, Submission to parliament, Brexit.

We are at stage 5, stage 10 will be Brexit.

an' stuff, innit. Wicked.
.

 

[Danidl]

. I almost couldn't be, then thought "What the hell":

The Brexit Sequence

Ambition, Referendum, Advisory request, Intention of PM, Intention of government, Article 50 notice served, Negotiations commence, Agreement secured, Submission to parliament, Brexit.

We are at stage 5, stage 10 will be Brexit.

an' stuff, innit. Wicked.
.

... You are missing the important bit Decision by EU parliament on whether to accept or reject council negotiator recommendations.

I see it as at most a four stage process.. the ones where actual decisions are made.
1. UK parliament authorising. A50 declaration. Document sent.
2. Negotiating commences with EU nominated team.
3. Decision by EU parliament on recommendations proposed by EU team. The agreement or otherwise of the UK parliment while desirable is not necessary.
4. Formal declaration by EU of the divorce.

 

[flecc]

... You are missing the important bit Decision by EU parliament on whether to accept or reject council negotiator recommendations.

It's included in my "Submission to parliament". As you acknowledge, it makes no difference whether parliament accepts or rejects so it isn't the important part, we will still be out. Therefore parliament's final decision isn't part of the exiting process.
.

 

[Danidl]

It's included in my "Submission to parliament". As you acknowledge, it makes no difference whether parliament accepts or rejects so it isn't the important part, we will still be out. Therefore parliament's final decision isn't part of the exiting process.
.

Clarification accepted, I had made the assumption you were referring only to the UK parliament. Peace

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes ,I knew all that KTM. Fairly obvious, but folk voting for tories would not have done so if Brexit held such fears.

Why not, they only ever vote for the Conservatives because someone has made them more afraid of everyone else after all, and Corbyn quite rightly being against atomic weapons was just the right thing for them to be convinced to fear, wasn't it?
Fear has always been the Right Wing's weapon of choice.

 

[oldtom]

After yesterday's humiliation for the UKIP leader in Stoke on Trent, I think those people who called for another referendum might have some justification now.

I can't remember which UK constituency voted most heavily for 'Brexit' last June but the Stoke on Trent one must be up there among the most pro-'Brexit' areas of the country. From memory, I think the leavers outvoted the remainers by more than two to one - can't be bothered researching it!

I read that to be that the 'Brexit' bubble has burst due to the greater knowledge now available to the electorate than at June last year. If the good folk of Stoke were really so pro-'Brexit', then I'm sure they would have been delighted to boast the UKIP leader as their MP at Westminster. It seems to me that some disconnection has taken place and common sense has taken hold.

Be that as it may, the longer this business drags on, the clearer it becomes that the appetite for secession seems to have diminished considerably and even the tory media seem to have tired of it somewhat. What remains is a power-crazed PM embarked on a personal crusade to see this matter through for the benefit of her rich, influential cronies plus personal aggrandisement as she wants to be seen internationally as the new 'Iron Lady'. It is now simply tory dogma and a vanity enterprise just because they currently have the power and are unconcerned for the people who will suffer because of their arrogant folly.

Tom

 

[Zlatan]

Why not, they only ever vote for the Conservatives because someone has made them more afraid of everyone else after all, and Corbyn quite rightly being against atomic weapons was just the right thing for them to be convinced to fear, wasn't it?
Fear has always been the Right Wing's weapon of choice.

Errr, yes ofcourse OG but that's still a vote for May to continue doing what she,s doing..sort of an endorsement??
Whichever way you look at it and immaterial if voters reasoning ( which neither of us can assume to know) the conservatives will see this as a positive result. They won for god sake and in a seat labour has held for 80 odd years.
You have no idea why folk voted as they did and its irrelevant. The fact is they voted tories won , end of.

 

[tillson]

Corbyn quite rightly being against atomic weapons was just the right thing for them to be convinced to fear, wasn't it?
Fear has always been the Right Wing's weapon of choice.

And here endeth the lesson on how to occupy the political wilderness.

 

[tillson]

After yesterday's humiliation for the UKIP leader in Stoke on Trent, I think those people who called for another referendum might have some justification now.

I can't remember which UK constituency voted most heavily for 'Brexit' last June but the Stoke on Trent one must be up there among the most pro-'Brexit' areas of the country. From memory, I think the leavers outvoted the remainers by more than two to one - can't be bothered researching it!

I read that to be that the 'Brexit' bubble has burst due to the greater knowledge now available to the electorate than at June last year. If the good folk of Stoke were really so pro-'Brexit', then I'm sure they would have been delighted to boast the UKIP leader as their MP at Westminster. It seems to me that some disconnection has taken place and common sense has taken hold.

Be that as it may, the longer this business drags on, the clearer it becomes that the appetite for secession seems to have diminished considerably and even the tory media seem to have tired of it somewhat. What remains is a power-crazed PM embarked on a personal crusade to see this matter through for the benefit of her rich, influential cronies plus personal aggrandisement as she wants to be seen internationally as the new 'Iron Lady'. It is now simply tory dogma and a vanity enterprise just because they currently have the power and are unconcerned for the people who will suffer because of their arrogant folly.

Tom

The Conservative party have the power because they won the general election. The Conservative party have the mandate to continue with the process of leaving the EU because that was the outcome of the referendum.

As I said earlier, UKIP are waning because for many voters, it is job done in terms of leaving the EU. UKIP also took many votes from the Conservatives prior to the referendum and were positioned to take many more. That is why David Cameron called a referendum in the first place. Now that the Conservatives are going to end our EU membership, thus making them the anti-EU party, the Conservative voters who previously defected to UKIP are going back. The Conservatives are now effectively UKIP in all but name. If there is any stalling from the Conservatives over ending EU membership, UKIP will be there, poised to drain away their support again. That is why BREXIT must happen for the Conservatives. May wants power and that is why BREXIT will happen under the Conservative government. UKIP have a very important role to play in all of this for the reasons that I have given above.

Currently, Labour's only prospect of mounting an opposition to BREXIT is to hire a criminal to lead lead them. Now that's proper 24 carat humiliation. I feel sorry for Jeremy Corbyn because he seems an honest and decent man. As for many of the other Labour MPs, I take pleasure from their predicament.

I think Labour's next episode of egg on face will present itself as Donald Trump's state visit to the UK. I just hope Labour act with some dignity and don't make fools of themselves on the world stage when the visit takes place.

 

[oldgroaner]

Errr, yes ofcourse OG but that's still a vote for May to continue doing what she,s doing..sort of an endorsement??
Whichever way you look at it and immaterial if voters reasoning ( which neither of us can assume to know) the conservatives will see this as a positive result. They won for god sake and in a seat labour has held for 80 odd years.
You have no idea why folk voted as they did and its irrelevant. The fact is they voted tories won , end of.

You are beginning to sound like tillson, not bothering to apply logic to the situation, just relying on Dogma, rather surprising considering you couldn't make your mind up to vote one way or the other.
Basically you simply want to argue, not apply logic.
Since May wasn't up for election, nor were her policies on Brexit, how do you conflate that with an endorsement of what she is doing, when even she has no idea what she is actually going to do, or what the outcome will be?

As I said the voters simply responded to fear as they were intended to do.
They were made to fear being invaded by the Russians and the loss of jobs in the Nuclear industry, plus they are clinging on to the faint hope that she won't balls us the job as she has with every other office she has ever held.

Simply because she is the only person who has the power to do something.
The Public vote was to "Take back control"
How was the Public to know she would take that as literally meaning her personally?

 

[Woosh]

The regrets commence the following year.

There's bound to be rancour and mistrust at the beginning of a split up but you know what, trade with the EU will recover and brexit will become softer in the years that follow. After a few years, people will look back and all the initial pain would have been forgotten. Most economists agree that on medium to long term, our economy would benefit from brexit.

 

[tillson]

You are beginning to sound like tillson, not bothering to apply logic to the situation, just relying on Dogma, rather surprising considering you couldn't make your mind up to vote one way or the other.
Basically you simply want to argue, not apply logic.
Since May wasn't up for election, nor were her policies on Brexit, how do you conflate that with an endorsement of what she is doing, when even she has no idea what she is actually going to do, or what the outcome will be?

How do you know that she has no idea what she is going to do or what the outcome will be? Do you honestly believe that just because she hasn't told a bloke in Hull what the plan is, that it means there isn't one?

OG, when will you learn that it is all about democracy? A party proposes objectives which the electorate don't like, they get crushed. A party proposes objectives which the electorate like, they win. I give you Copeland.

So far, Remain have tried the equivalent of the following tactics to win over support:

1) Stamping their feet and flailing their arms.

2) Screaming and screaming and screaming until they are sick.

3) Holding their breath until they turn blue.

4) Yelling I hate you, I hate you, over and over again.

All you and the others are achieving is cementing the notion into peoples minds that you have lost the plot. I'm sorry to have to say that. Not necessarily you, but the BREXIDIOT, racist, xenophobic, Nazi nonsense has to stop if people are to listen and take the counter argument seriously. Otherwise you push people further away and that is what's happening.

 

[oldtom]

Conservatives are now effectively UKIP in all but name. If there is any stalling from the Conservatives over ending EU membership, UKIP will be there, poised to drain away their support again. That is why BREXIT must happen for the Conservatives. May wants power and that is why BREXIT will happen under the Conservative government. UKIP have a very important role to play in all of this for the reasons that I have given above.

Are you so deluded Tillson, that you cannot see that that is not a good thing. The picture you paint with those words is one that places the UK population in its most parlous position since 1939.

Have you still not grasped that these people you revere are the nastiest to have hit the political scene since Mosley and his black shirts? They are ruthless, bigoted, fascists and the 'Brexit' business is simply a vehicle for them to demonstrate their power - they have no compassion for ordinary people and their whole raison d'être has nothing to do with the UK being in or being out of the EU. It is about wielding absolute power and channeling funds from various sources, mostly from PAYE workers, into the hands of their friends. Right-wing politics = corruption and knows no international boundaries. Poor people are told honesty is the best policy but those born into a privileged background are indoctrinated differently.


UKIP: losing Parliamentary elections since 1993


Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

OG, when will you learn that it is all about democracy? A party proposes objectives which the electorate don't like, they get crushed. A party proposes objectives which the electorate like, they win. I give you Copeland.

No thnak you you can keep it, and for your information we do not have "Democracy" in this country, we have first past the post Party Politics, and the rest of your rather pompous dogma, is just that
Dogma.
Simply trotting it out as if you are quoting some religious mantra isn't likely to impress people who can understand what is actually taking place.
You are as convincing as a parson with these none arguments
The whole parliamentary system has and is failing to reflect the needs of the Public, only an elite group.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Theresa May has read into the Copeland by-election that gives her the power to go for whatever form of Brexit she wishes. Copeland was an anti Labour vote because of nuclear,the Tories just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Interviewing the local voters and Brexit was hardly mentioned.
So Theresa May goes forward with A50...obstacle No 1... Czech,Germany,France and Italy won't talk about the deal unless we agree to the divorce settlement,60 billion euros seems to be demanded sum....I work that out as about £3000 per Brexiter,assuming still 17 million. Try offering a guy in the street to vote Remain and bribe them with £3000,I wonder how many Brexiters would take the bribe,hehe.
Corbin is a hopeless politician.....he should have accepted Brexit but tried to steer amendments that diminished May's power. Putting a whip on his MP's to vote for 'Brexit at all costs' was a terrible blunder,for it only strengthened the majority and gave May a mandate not only in the commons but also in the Lords.
Craftily crafted amendments and put a whip on his MP's to vote positively on those amendments would together with the SNP and some rebel Tories have made life more difficult for May without being accused of voting against 'the will of the people'......but Corbyn is too straight a guy,to succeed in politics (and business) you do at times need to be brave,unexpected and a bit devious,to unsettle your opponents, he hasn't those skills.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

How do you know that she has no idea what she is going to do or what the outcome will be? Do you honestly believe that just because she hasn't told a bloke in Hull what the plan is, that it means there isn't one?

OG, when will you learn that it is all about democracy? A party proposes objectives which the electorate don't like, they get crushed. A party proposes objectives which the electorate like, they win. I give you Copeland.

So far, Remain have tried the equivalent of the following tactics to win over support:

1) Stamping their feet and flailing their arms.

2) Screaming and screaming and screaming until they are sick.

3) Holding their breath until they turn blue.

4) Yelling I hate you, I hate you, over and over again.

All you and the others are achieving is cementing the notion into peoples minds that you have lost the plot. I'm sorry to have to say that. Not necessarily you, but the BREXIDIOT, racist, xenophobic, Nazi nonsense has to stop if people are to listen and take the counter argument seriously. Otherwise you push people further away and that is what's happening.

I have seen Brexiters on question time who exhibit 1-4,usually accompanied by 'We won,yah boo,you lost'.
I think Remainers are being quite constrained considering they don't have a voice in parliament who appears to be able to compete with Dictator May.
Whatever comes out of Brexit May has to satisfy the poor,the jams,small and big business,the EU and the rest of the world....all must be achieved in 2 years.
If she fails there is a massive vacuum in British politics for a new centre ground party,combining disgruntled Leavers and disgruntled Remainers....UKIP and Labour will be history and voters will be sick of May's deception....the Liberals plus the new party would be a powerful party,May cannot fail.
KudosDave