Brexit, for once some facts.

Zlatan

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I agree the possible advantages of multiple motors but think a single motor is best in the market, since it does the job anyway with simplicity at much lower cost.

Unsprung weight should always be as low as possible as a ratio of sprung weight, since that enables the wheels to most closely follow the contours of the road surface and maintain maximum contact.

The effect of an unsprung wheel/brake/suspension mass thrown up by a road ripple is to try to throw the sprung mass of the car upwards too. The greater the unsprung mass in the ratio, the more it throws the car up which can momentarily allow the wheel to bounce slightly, reducing or losing road contact which has handling and safety implications. That upward car movement also has comfort consequences. Then the greater rebound reaction throws the weight of the vehicle downward at the unsprung wheel assembly which loses drive power as the tyre compresses more than necessary.

The best illustration of the effect of excess unsprung weight is to exaggerate it to make it clear. I'm sure you will have seen examples of Monster trucks being driven over obstructions such as cars.

Remember how as the wheels contact the car, the small truck body bounces much higher away from the wheels in a hugely exaggerated way? That's because the wheel weight is far too great for the light truck and that excess thrown weight in turn throws the truck body upwards on the springs.

In essence, the higher the unsprung weight to the sprung weight for a given spring rate, the more the vehicle bounces, with all the handling, safety and comfort disadvantages that brings.
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Unsprung weight us an irrelevance for 90% of car users, infact a lot of performance cars ,( eg Civic Type R) have quietly gone back to beam axle on rear end, which does not have low unsprung weight..
Go and drive a live axled MK, Caterham ( Dedion has high unsprung weight and the 160 a live axle, and these are exceptionally light cars. where , where ratio would be even worse)
Most bug American cars still use live axle, which has awful unsprung weight...
In reality 90% of drivers couldn't tell and wouldn't know difference ...
 
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Zlatan

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I've been running hybrids for the last ten years, you thoughts are as sensible as that educated idiot Clarkson. Only he can be funny.

As you are only here to oppose everything, it's pointless trying to get through to you.
Which one Croxden ?

I,ve said Hybrid has its place but certainly not the one flecc is suggesting.
If you want great performance coupled with goid economy and emissions and don't mind massive price yes they work...

Lets face it F1 is now hybrid...but racing with its continual either accelerating or braking suits hybrids perfectly...( car either making maximum power or regenerating maximum) . For ordinary motoring there are cheaper, more environmentally friendly alternatives.The Porsche 918 is arguably motorings pinnacle so far....but its not mainstream and never will be.

Flecc
Ecoboost Fiesta on its own will outsell all Hybrids...thats before you count its use in Focus and Mondeo.. ( Mondeo now available with a 1.0 3 cyl petrol engine...and it goes great , has fantastic emissions and compared with a hybrid cheap)

The latest Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost produces 100 bhp, 99 g/km co, top speed 112 mph and returns 65 mpg ...Cost £13.5k ( discounted) Gets to 60 in around 11 seconds.
Wonder how those figures would be affected with a 60kg ( or more) battery pack, a 25 kg e motor and all the ensuing wiring ??? What's the cheapest Hybrid to compete ???

And yes Clarkson likes to play the clown and annoy many people but underneath all the BS is a very clever bloke,and a damned good driver. He talks lots of sense.

What's actually happening in London with congestion charge and emissions etc is to make sure all the fumes destined for London turn up in Birmingham, or anywhere as long as its not London..
 
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Croxden

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flecc

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Unsprung weight us an irrelevance for 90% of car users, infact a lot of performance cars ,( eg Civic Type R) have quietly gone back to beam axle on rear end, which does not have low unsprung weight..
Go and drive a live axled MK, Caterham ( Dedion has high unsprung weight and the 160 a live axle, and these are exceptionally light cars. where , where ratio would be even worse)
Most bug American cars still use live axle, which has awful unsprung weight...
In reality 90% of drivers couldn't tell and wouldn't know difference ...
Yes, but I don't know why you responded. I wasn't arguing it's case just responding to Danidl's request for an explanation of the basis for wanting low unsprung weight.
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flecc

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Flecc
Ecoboost Fiesta on its own will outsell all Hybrids...thats before you count its use in Focus and Mondeo.. ( Mondeo now available with a 1.0 3 cyl petrol engine...and it goes great , has fantastic emissions and compared with a hybrid cheap)
Still you stubbornly miss the point, which wasn't to argue that hybrids are the best solution, they often aren't.

But it's a fact that for a huge number of drivers who do moderate mileages they are best for them, because they avoid buying expensive petrol/diesel for almost all of their journeys. That's the only efficiency they are concerned with, their wallets.
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anotherkiwi

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From Reuters (just a rumour of course)
Now we can't go trusting those damned press agencies that employ real reporters can we! Better putting our faith in fakebook news feeds, after all they are where the orange man with tiny hands goes to get his alt-news...

Now that the Daily Mail isn't a recognized Wikipedia source we can trust them though. If those damned commies don't trust them they must be telling the alt-truth!
 

Zlatan

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Still you stubbornly miss the point, whicn wasn't to argue that hybrids are the best solution, they often aren't.

But it's a fact that for a huge number of drivers who do moderate mileages they are best for them, because they avoid buying expensive petrol/diesel for almost all of their journeys. That's the only efficiency they are concerned with, their wallets.
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I can see that argument flecc but...the only way they can do that is by charging up from mains as with a plug in hybrid, which negates the hybrid part...and I,m not convinced on a financial argument anyway.
Take into account higher purchase price and then long term durability of battery..
Diesel for my big expensive gas guzzling car for 5000 miles would be approx £600...
Yes folk might convince themselves, as they always do, when they want something, but lower the mileage the less the issue of fuel costs become. To me it does not make financial sense, for anyone, unless you take into account congestion charge, but then why not go full electric ?
And like I,ve said before buying to use in London is very specific and does not reflect very much of motoring population.

As Croxden has just pointed out, he,s had a Hybrid ( oris it an) for 10 years...he likes it , fine. Has it been cheaper ? I don't think so..and if it has , compared to what ?
Perhaps he could give us a break down ??? ( not a joke)
 

oldtom

Esteemed Pedelecer
So, now the EU has ordered an inquiry into the 'gig economy' in the UK which causes a tax shortfall for the exchequer of billions of pounds each year.

It seems that a number of self-employed workers pay little or no tax and the companies who provide them with work avoid NI contributions under existing legislation. Additionally, the income figures claimed by these individuals entitle them to fairly high levels of benefits from the state, so all in all, permitting them flexibility in their working hours to provide a work/life balance to suit their requirements.

....Oh wait! Did I say the EU? Silly me! It's the tory government I meant to say. They have reluctantly been forced to address the issue on account of hugely reduced receipts at the treasury, commensurate with the growth of entrepreneurial business start-ups, bringing innovative employment features to the market place such as unpaid apprenticeships, zero hours contracts and compulsory training paid for by the job applicant prior to engagement.

Perhaps it's just me being cynical but I can't help but feel that a proper, forensic examination of the finances of the members of both the Commons and the Lords would identify many areas where millions of pounds could be re-directed to treasury funds. That's before they even begin to crack down on the tax-avoiding companies and individuals on incomes vastly less than that of parliamentarians.

If they are really serious, they should bring in far more stringent legislation so that clever accountants cannot use the existing rules to save a self-employed client £5,000 in tax in exchange for a £1,000 fee.

I'm not convinced at all that they have selected the right man for the job as I feel that this is simply a piece of window dressing to enable the government to say, 'Well, we did launch an investigation but it's a very complex area and may take many years to fully understand and find evidence of rule-bending or possible criminality.'

I'd like to know when the government will tell Starbuck's, Amazon, Google and all the major multi-nationals that they will be required to pay tax in the UK or their operations will be closed down, regardless of how many redundancies that causes......Oops! I lapsed into a fantasy just then because that's never going to happen as it would mean an end to the black economy in which parliamentarians earn lots of bonuses not traceable through any UK bank.

Self-employed not paying their taxes properly - who'd have thought it? Dear oh dear!

The Bullshine Broadcast Corporation records the tale like this:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38963653

Tom
 
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flecc

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I can see that argument flecc but...the only way they can do that is by charging up from mains as with a plug in hybrid, which negates the hybrid part...and I,m not convinced on a financial argument anyway.
Charging from the mains doesn't negate the hybrid part, the hybrid parts enable the pure electric operation for shorter journeys while still having an ICE car for longer trips.

As I've posted, it's all about being the correct user to make prechargeable hybrid pay. That's someone doing moderate mileages around 5000 a year in mostly short journeys that are within the pure electric operation range, who also keep the car long term.

And these days that is an very high proportion of all drivers. Female drivers have been in the majority of new licence applicants for some while now and form a huge proportion of the driving population. As the insurance stats show they are overwhelmingly in this mid mileage group.

And there's the rapidly expanding group of elderly drivers as longevity increases, once again moderate mileage drivers.

As you say, pre-chargeable hybrid sales are still low because the appropriate people have yet to wake up to the opportunities, but that is changing as they realise money can be saved by the right users.
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oldtom

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flecc

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As Croxden has just pointed out, he,s had a Hybrid ( oris it an) for 10 years...he likes it , fine. Has it been cheaper ? I don't think so..and if it has , compared to what ?
Not relevant as a reply to me. His car is not precharged so cannot save money by using mains electricity. I've only been arguing the case for pre-charged hybrids where most of a users journeys are within the battery range. They can save since they rarely buy any petrol.
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Zlatan

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Nov 26, 2016
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Yes I can see that flecc..its my conclusion too.

We are both missing point about folk wanting things tho, mate runs a Tesla S, cant be justified in charging costs or on any economic reasons. He simply wanted one, its a fantastic car in its own right. I suspect that's case with Hybrid, folk want one because its a brilliant car...but I honestly believe there is much cheaper motoring to be had for anyone..Could any Hybrid be as cheap as lets say a 3 yr old Focus Diesel, taking into account everything.. I doubt it....but buying cars is more a desire thing, which is great.
IMHO any car that needs a £3000 battery with a 5 year or 1000 cycle life will never be truly cheap, perhaps cheap enough to justify your desire for one, but ultimately not cheapest...for quite a while yet.
 

flecc

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Could any Hybrid be as cheap as lets say a 3 yr old Focus Diesel, taking into account everything.. I doubt it....
Possibly not, but I'm comparing like with like, both new, not one new and one three years old. Anyway a diesel is very much the wrong choice for the driver I'm speaking of who almost entirely does short trips.

In those circumstances it's a noisy rattlebox, taking too long to warm up and get quieter. I groan every morning as I hear them all start up and shatter the peace, sounding like a fleet of trucks.

Civilised petrol for me every time.
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Danidl

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Yes, but I don't know why you responded. I wasn't arguing it's case just responding to Danidl's request for an explanation of the basis for wanting low unsprung weight.
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Hi flecc, I appreciate the explanation, my estimate is that the unsprung weight per wheel would double, with a 10kw motor per wheel.
 
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flecc

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Oct 25, 2006
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Hi flecc, I appreciate the explanation, my estimate is that the unsprung weight per wheel would double, with a 10kw motor per wheel.
That would be high and certainly have effects, but as Zlatan has posted, a somewhat raised unsprung weight can be tolerated in designs, so long as it doesn't go too far.

Suspension design is a complex of conflicting compromises, soft enough springing to maintain road contact and give sufficient comfort, but tamed by the stiffness of shock absorbers which undo much of the gains of the softer springing.

Likewise independent suspension of each wheel, but then the wheels each side re-coupled with anti-roll bars to prevent excessive lean on corners.

It's like trying to hammer in nails using a rubber hammer to avoid any damage to the nails!
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Kudoscycles

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Apr 15, 2011
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I agree that I have not seen the programme, but all reports from both sides are to be taken with a large pinch of salt. There have been some positive outcomes from devaluation, but of course the remain camp will choose to overlook or dismiss them as being short term only and sooner or later the sky will fall in. I am not pessimistic. You have to look to others on here for that viewpoint..
Its just this Government,especially Theresa May,completely ignore all the current and pretty much certain future problems which are squarely at the door of Brexit. Not a comment about the £4.5 billion loss by Rolls Royce,I am sure they were a company that May and Co were looking to export increases post Brexit,remember they did go bust,I think in the 80's.
Notice how May and Hammond are very quiet at the moment,completely ignoring the NHS.
The negotiations with the EU are not going to be easy and we seem ill prepared to make a good job of them.
I think the Remainers have now accepted that we are being led down a path that none of us can stop,accepting what will be and dealing with it afterwards.
Its the Leavers who seem hell bent on Brexit whatever the outcome,but the Leavers wont be able to cope with a bad Brexit.
For me, I am constantly repositioning my businesses in such a way as to overcome any scenario,I finally had to reprice Kudos e-bikes as new stock arrives....shame,it was all ok at the old price level.....we all just have to accept we will pay more for everything,I hope Brexiters are happy.
I wonder what things are going to look like post Brexit?
KudosDave
 

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