Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Don't tell everybody! That was my plan if Brexit goes wrong!

Sent from my XT1032 using Tapatalk

You are in co op anyhow, just pull your pants up and nip around back...
Come on OG fess up...who hits your like button 20 seconds after you,ve hit " post reply"...Is it your brother or summat..
Hang on he hasn't in last one?? Bet he,s busy thinking...or swapping phone for computer ???

 

[anotherkiwi]

From reading here one would think the UK is the only country in the EU that pays into the EU and doesn't get anything back. No money at all comes back the other way? In fact Sweden, Denmark and Germany are larger net contributors per capita than the UK expressed as a percentage.

I was looking around me and thinking what do I have, what do I buy from the UK? Well I bought a GSM motor from Woosh, who bought it from China. Now and then a jar of real English marmelade and of course Wheetabix every morning for breakfast. And from time to time I buy a bit of cheddar and luxury of luxuries a packet of crisps. What else do you make?

 

[Danidl]

In words that a normal rational Human Being can understand, please present a sensible and believable argument to support that proposition
No one has been forced to fly the EU flag, have they?

Nationalism and it's sentiments are immune from rational arguement.

 

[tillson]

From reading here one would think the UK is the only country in the EU that pays into the EU and doesn't get anything back. No money at all comes back the other way? In fact Sweden, Denmark and Germany are larger net contributors per capita than the UK expressed as a percentage.

I was looking around me and thinking what do I have, what do I buy from the UK? Well I bought a GSM motor from Woosh, who bought it from China. Now and then a jar of real English marmelade and of course Wheetabix every morning for breakfast. And from time to time I buy a bit of cheddar and luxury of luxuries a packet of crisps. What else do you make?

The worlds finest aero engines.

 

[flecc]

Flecc

Obviously the car and its current motivator (ICE) one day will have had its day. Like the weather forcaster who says it will rain, is 100% correct, but the big issue is when.
I left uni in 60's..with advice from careers " don't go into motor industry, the car's days are numbered" .
Was tripe then and is now on 3 accounts.
1) Whilstever its at all possible people will demand personal transport. You cant change human nature.

2) In 60's there was absolutely no alternative to ICE..that fact still holds.
Hydrogen fuel cells were invented in 1839 and actually predate ICE but they have not progressed. Linear electric motors..1905. Electric Vehicles predate ICE and are arguably no better relatively than in early days. Battery technology has come on...a bit...bit lets look at it.
Power to weight , batteries are superb. They can give all their power quickly...but in vehicles primarily for transport we need good power to volume.( power density) Cant remember exact figures but if we assume petrol / diesel is unit (1) then examine storage needed for other energy storage its obvious nothing can compare.( lead acid scores 11, lithium batteries 7, compressed air 10,.In other words the best batteries now available need 7 times the volume to store same energy as petroleum / diesel. ( actually diesel is 0.96, it contains a bit more energy than petrol)
In effect there simply is no alternative.
Drive a Tesla S, superb for 140 miles...New batteries every 5 years..It does not really work and that's the best we have.( Imagine driving 1000 miles in it, 5 full overnight charges or 7 85% ones ???)

3) You fail to see the financial implications of the car. Without the business it generates there would be no other businesses. Its the ultimate consumer item. Without a replacement civilisations would fail with its removal .

So we need to find both an alternative to replace the cars ( and ICE) to replace the consumer hole its loss would replace, and an alternative
technology. When both are found we might be able to say the car ( and ICE) has a definite date for its extinction. As it is there is simply no alternative..
So how can anyone predict a date for its demise...
London is as far removed from a realistic scenario of transport demands as its possible to find..

The car and ICE will be with us another 100 years...at least.
If there really was a viable alternative it would be carrying reps up and down M1 by now.

Not arguing with any of this Zlatan, I'd have said ICE will be with us for at least 50 years and probably more. Those advising against entering the motor industry were clearly being very premature.

But to repeat, I gave three alternative future scenarios, one of them being car free far into the future. Meanwhile a hint of that future will be declines in car usage in city areas that become increasingly congested. In parallel with that there will be growth in car usage in the third world as they go on their way towards the same choked future.

When the car started to become popular the world had 2 billion people, hardly any with cars.

As we are getting closer to and heading towards 10 billions who will all want cars, the polution, health and car space positions will become increasing impossible. Exactly what actions governments will take then we cannot know, but their outcome will be big reductions in car ownership and usage, aided by those voluntarily giving up car as has already happened in my area. Did you know that there have been huge falls in the proportion of young people taking up car driving in both the USA and Britain over the last twenty years?

"The Department for Transport’s recent National Travel Survey shows a sharp drop over the past 18 years in the number of young people holding a full driving licence. While in 1995, some 43% of 17- to 20-year-olds held a full driving licence, that has plunged to just 31%. The fall is sharpest among young men, where it has dropped from 51% to 30%, while the percentage of young women with a full driving licence has slipped from 36% to 31%. Over the same period the proportion of 21- to 29-year-olds with full driving licences has also fallen."

Those young people are the future and their action is voluntary.

One day there may well be no car ownership, just use of driverless robot cars.
.

 

[Zlatan]

The worlds finest aero engines.

And BAE are second largest supplier of armaments in the world...So NZ better beware..besides WTF do they make...a few sheep and a kiwi or 2...FFS..

 

[tillson]

From reading here one would think the UK is the only country in the EU that pays into the EU and doesn't get anything back. No money at all comes back the other way? In fact Sweden, Denmark and Germany are larger net contributors per capita than the UK expressed as a percentage.

I was looking around me and thinking what do I have, what do I buy from the UK? Well I bought a GSM motor from Woosh, who bought it from China. Now and then a jar of real English marmelade and of course Wheetabix every morning for breakfast. And from time to time I buy a bit of cheddar and luxury of luxuries a packet of crisps. What else do you make?

..... and if you multiply the amount contributed by the day of the month on which you were born, add fifteen, divide the answer by 5 and then add one. Write the result down, then multiply it 17, then divide it by (11 plus 6) and subtract the result from the answer you wrote down, you will see that the UK contribute FA! They'll just laugh at us.

 

[tillson]

And BAE are second largest supplier of armaments in the world...So NZ better beware..besides WTF do they make...a few sheep and a kiwi or 2...FFS..

Do they make Kiwi boot polish as well? It's shite.

 

[flecc]

What else do you make?

Fair Isle sweaters:

 

[Zlatan]

Not arguing with any of this Zlatan, I'd have said ICE will be with us for at least 50 years and probably more. Those advising against entering the motor industry were clearly being very premature.

But to repeat, I gave three alternative future scenarios, one of them being car free far into the future. Meanwhile a hint of that future will be declines in car usage in city areas that become increasingly congested. In parallel with that there will be growth in car usage in the third world as they go on their way towards the same choked future.

When the car started to become popular the world had 2 billion people, hardly any with cars.

As we are getting closer to and heading towards 10 billions who will all want cars, the polution, health and car space positions will become increasing impossible. Exactly what actions governments will take then we cannot know, but their outcome will be big reductions in car ownership and usage, aided by those voluntarily giving up car as has already happened in my area. Did you know that there have been huge falls in the proportion of young people taking up car driving in both the USA and Britain over the last twenty years?

"The Department for Transport’s recent National Travel Survey shows a sharp drop over the past 18 years in the number of young people holding a full driving licence. While in 1995, some 43% of 17- to 20-year-olds held a full driving licence, that has plunged to just 31%. The fall is sharpest among young men, where it has dropped from 51% to 30%, while the percentage of young women with a full driving licence has slipped from 36% to 31%. Over the same period the proportion of 21- to 29-year-olds with full driving licences has also fallen."

Those young people are the future and their action is voluntary.

One day there may well be no car ownership, just use of driverless robot cars.
.

yep .I agree with that too. Putting in perspective California, that forward thinking environmentalists heaven, has decreed that all cars used there by 2025 must be capable of 54 mpg..VAG are currently writing software to ensure standards are met...

Didn't realise driving license numbers were dropping though. That's interesting and I wouldn't have expected it yet.

 

[tillson]

And BAE are second largest supplier of armaments in the world...So NZ better beware..besides WTF do they make...a few sheep and a kiwi or 2...FFS..

Don't forget the worlds best F1 cars either.

 

[Danidl]

Flecc

Obviously the car and its current motivator (ICE) one day will have had its day. Like the weather forcaster who says it will rain, is 100% correct, but the big issue is when.
I left uni in 60's..with advice from careers " don't go into motor industry, the car's days are numbered" .
Was tripe then and is now on 3 accounts.
1) Whilstever its at all possible people will demand personal transport. You cant change human nature.

2) In 60's there was absolutely no alternative to ICE..that fact still holds.
Hydrogen fuel cells were invented in 1839 and actually predate ICE but they have not progressed. Linear electric motors..1905. Electric Vehicles predate ICE and are arguably no better relatively than in early days. Battery technology has come on...a bit...bit lets look at it.
Power to weight , batteries are superb. They can give all their power quickly...but in vehicles primarily for transport we need good power to volume.( power density) Cant remember exact figures but if we assume petrol / diesel is unit (1) then examine storage needed for other energy storage its obvious nothing can compare.( lead acid scores 11, lithium batteries 7, compressed air 10,.In other words the best batteries now available need 7 times the volume to store same energy as petroleum / diesel. ( actually diesel is 0.96, it contains a bit more energy than petrol)
In effect there simply is no alternative.
Drive a Tesla S, superb for 140 miles...New batteries every 5 years..It does not really work and that's the best we have.( Imagine driving 1000 miles in it, 5 full overnight charges or 7 85% ones ???)

3) You fail to see the financial implications of the car. Without the business it generates there would be no other businesses. Its the ultimate consumer item. Without a replacement civilisations would fail with its removal .

So we need to find both an alternative to replace the cars ( and ICE) to replace the consumer hole its loss would replace, and an alternative
technology. When both are found we might be able to say the car ( and ICE) has a definite date for its extinction. As it is there is simply no alternative..
So how can anyone predict a date for its demise...
London is as far removed from a realistic scenario of transport demands as its possible to find..

The car and ICE will be with us another 100 years...at least.
If there really was a viable alternative it would be carrying reps up and down M1 by now.

I can agree with much of this post .. Particularly the
Role of the car in global economics . But can find a number of anomalies in the detail
Hydrogen as a fuel was irrelevant when there were cheaper alternatives and the engineering had not been as developed as now. With abundant electric energy hydrogen becomes realistic either as a ICE fuel or in a fuel cell.
2. The arguments against glacial improvements in battery technology are not also true. There has been incremental improvements year on year. I do recall driving cars where getting in excess of 400 miles on a fill was a hope not an expectation. The telsa models are there. What is necessary there is that the recharging process be instantly accomplished or about 10 minutes per fill. , And that the replacement cost of the battery pack be affordable.
I would agree with you that people value their independence and the car as a device delivers that in rural and suburban settings, but not within highly urban settings. If the population drifts towards high density megacities, then cars will lose attraction.

 

[flecc]

Don't forget the worlds best F1 cars either.

Not worth much now though, in a more environmental aware world in which F1 has been in continuous decline. Link.
.

 

[Zlatan]

I can agree with much of this post .. Particularly the
Role of the car in global economics . But can find a number of anomalies in the detail
Hydrogen as a fuel was irrelevant when there were cheaper alternatives and the engineering had not been as developed as now. With abundant electric energy hydrogen becomes realistic either as a ICE fuel or in a fuel cell.
2. The arguments against glacial improvements in battery technology are not also true. There has been incremental improvements year on year. I do recall driving cars where getting in excess of 400 miles on a fill was a hope not an expectation. The telsa models are there. What is necessary there is that the recharging process be instantly accomplished or about 10 minutes per fill. , And that the replacement cost of the battery pack be affordable.
I would agree with you that people value their independence and the car as a device delivers that in rural and suburban settings, but not within highly urban settings. If the population drifts towards high density megacities, then cars will lose attraction.

Chap that services my cars owns a Tesla S. It is a fantastic car, out accelerates Porsches and running costs negligible...but it cost £60k ( second hand) and according to him it can be recharged to 85% in 30 mins but only with 3 phase supply.( Tesla offer free charging and there is a developing network) Instant recharge is not possible with his? ( didn't think it was with any ?)

Tesla S does show future for electric cars tho...more suited to massive cars,justifying massive price...with room for loads of battery space...I,m not sure where it stands environmentally...those batteries use up lots of resources and have a limited ( I believe 1000 full ti empties) life span. I couldn't cope driving across Europe on 140 mile range...I,m looking to fill mine up when I get under 100 miles...you would really have to plan journey very carefully...
But good points.

 

[flecc]

Didn't realise driving license numbers were dropping though. That's interesting and I wouldn't have expected it yet.

It's even more dramatic a fall in the USA, not only the young but all groups up to the 50 plus much less likely to drive. Link.

When driving even drops off in car-mad USA, it's certain that there's real change under way.
.

 

[shemozzle999]

Source for EU brexit news:

https://www.euractiv.com/topics/brexit/

 

[gray198]

I never doubted it for one minute.

I've never had any bother with Jaguar or Land Rover and wouldn't have any qualms about having another. You can find someone who's had a fault with any brand of car.

I have had 2 Hondas since 2002 (made in Swindon I believe) and not had any trouble with either. I think the engineering and reliability of modern cars has improved tremendously. It seems that people tend to stick to one brand they feel confident in and maybe sometimes for a bit of one upmanship

 

[Zlatan]

It's even more dramatic a fall in the USA, not only the young but all groups up to the 50 plus much less likely to drive. Link.

When driving even drops off in car-mad USA, it's certain that there's real change under way.
.

Makes more room for us dinosaurs...
Yoof of today...what is world coming to...

 

[Kudoscycles]

I never doubted it for one minute.

I've never had any bother with Jaguar or Land Rover and wouldn't have any qualms about having another. You can find someone who's had a fault with any brand of car.

Just to complete the picture my wife has a VW and a BMW and all my senior managers have Audi.....KudosDave

 

[tillson]

Just to complete the picture my wife has a VW and a BMW and all my senior managers have Audi.....KudosDave

That's lovely.

My wife had a VW and it's a great car which I like very much. However, I have always, without exception, found the VW and Audi dealership servicing to be the worst customer experience hat I have ever had. I have used four different main dealers and the experience has gone beyond bad and into fraudulent, bordering on police involvement until they admitted what they were doing and took action against those involved. This goes all the way up to VW UK.

This is such a shame because I have a long history of VW and Audi ownership, but I / we will never own another.

My mother owns a Toyota. In complete contrast, I can not believe the lengths that this company go to in order to ensure customer satisfaction. It is remarkable.