Brexit, for once some facts.

oldgroaner

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but if they gain a number of jobs from the UK, and their companies benefit from not having to compete on a level playing field with UK companies in their internal EU markets and even in most export ones, they'll make a load more money.

So individually and as nations pretty much all the EU will benefit, the only loss will be to the EU as a whole from our membership fee and contribution to joint projects, but they're loosing a bit and gaining a lot, we're loosing a lot to gain a bit.
And each individual nation within the EU will hardly notice the difference, but we will!
On the one side the loss is divided between 27 on the other 1 nation takes the full bill.
Smart move yes? Guess who has the upper hand?

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oldgroaner

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Why are we risking everything to merely at best hold our own when it is obvious we need to radically improve our situation, not risk making it worse? We are like a compulsive gambler who hopes somehow to win "big" and recoup his losses despite the odds, on one last throw of the dice.

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flecc

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The Beeb is running a series of ten under 15 minute programs daily from last Monday titled:

Brexit, A Guide for the Perplexed.

Each day's program covers one main area

They can also be listened to on the i-player at any time and each day's web page contains the next and previous program links. For you to start with here's last Monday's first day program link, subject "Who are we negotiating with".
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Woosh

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the next episode will be 'how much will it cost us to leave?'
I wonder how the £40 billion divorce settlement will come down with voters?
I think it is likely that unless the figure is £20 billion or less, Mrs May will walk away from the negotiation.
 

oldgroaner

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I really fail to see the advantage of leaving the EU on ANY ground, financially we endanger our biggest Tax earner the services,and we endanger that part of our manufacturing sector that can up sticks and move to the mainland.

And even of we pull off the minor miracle of doing both of those things, we have a Rabid press supporting a Rabid right wing government that is opposed by Monty Python's Flying Circus so imagining an election will change things is fantasy,

Worse, the two groups are in cahoots over cowering before the so called "Will of the people" in case they turn ugly, ignoring the fact that in reality they only make up about one third of the population.

How interesting that they are in dire fear of one third of the population who really are the same sort of individuals as the other two thirds, who's wishes are being trampled into the dirt as having no value, and described in sarcastic and insulting terms far more often by a factor of a least ten to one of any invective aimed the other way.

What will they do if the two thirds who didn't vote for this or even abstained aren't satisfied? when the projects comes off the rails?
 
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flecc

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the next episode will be 'how much will it cost us to leave?'
I wonder how the £40 billion divorce settlement will come down with voters?
I think it is likely that unless the figure is £20 billion or less, Mrs May will walk away from the negotiation.
I suppose it will also depend on the time period the cost is spread over. A higher figure might well be more acceptable if settled in small enough annual increments.
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oldgroaner

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taking down the EU flag is priceless though.
In words that a normal rational Human Being can understand, please present a sensible and believable argument to support that proposition
No one has been forced to fly the EU flag, have they?
 
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tillson

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You've disagreed with my post... so explain to me. How does the EU need the UK??? We're one of 27 members and it has trading agreements with most of the rest of the world. We'll be out on our own, competing with the EU.
Isn't the UK second only to Germany in terms of the amount contributed to the EU? We are good customers to the German car industry. We buy more good from the EU than we sell.

We are only one of 27, I agree, but we are only one of a handful which actually contribute, and we contribute a great deal by comparison to other EU nations.

The post which you made that I disagreed with dismissed the UK as being almost irrelevant to the EU. That isn't correct.

I'm not saying that we are indispensable within the EU and that they will be forced to give us a good exit deal. What I am saying is that the UK's membership is not as irrelevant, as you suggest. I believe that we, the U.K, have a negotiating position and that the EU will not dismiss us in a, couldn't care less, manner. I think you are wrong with that assumption and that is why I disagree with you.
 
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flecc

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In words that a normal rational Human Being can understand, please present a sensible and believable argument to support that proposition
Flying aloft the EU flag reminds us that sky in most parts of the world is blue with a yellow sun and night time stars, rather than the near continuous sun and star masking sombre greys over the UK.

And that's rather depressing, so better we aren't reminded.
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oldgroaner

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Isn't the UK second only to Germany in terms of the amount contributed to the EU? We are good customers to the German car industry. We buy more good from the EU than we sell.

We are only one of 27, I agree, but we are only one of a handful which actually contribute, and we contribute a great deal by comparison to other EU nations.

The post which you made that I disagreed with dismissed the UK as being almost irrelevant to the EU. That isn't correct.

I'm not saying that we are indispensable within the EU and that they will be forced to give us a good exit deal. What I am saying is that the UK's membership is not as irrelevant, as you suggest. I believe that we, the U.K, have a negotiating position and that the EU will not dismiss us in a, couldn't care less, manner. I think you are wrong with that assumption and that is why I disagree with you.
They will give us crumbs to keep us going till they have no further need for us, and why not?
We are attempting to do that with them after all.
 
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tillson

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Both my other cars are BMW ,so it looks like I have the complete set....KudosDave
I never doubted it for one minute.

I've never had any bother with Jaguar or Land Rover and wouldn't have any qualms about having another. You can find someone who's had a fault with any brand of car.
 
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Jimod

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I've avoided posting anything about brexit, remoaners or brexiteers but, enough is enough. Today in Tesco, their white chocolate chip muffins have gone up in price by 25%. I hope all you brexiteers are happy.
 

tillson

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They will give us crumbs to keep us going till they have no further need for us, and why not?
We are attempting to do that with them after all.
I don't know OG. Maybe, or maybe not, or maybe BREXIT coupled with other EU political developments will cause change and reform. I wouldn't like to predict that.

What I am saying is that the UK is not an irrelevant member of the EU as KTM bicycle bloke suggests.
 

tillson

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I've avoided posting anything about brexit, remoaners or brexiteers but, enough is enough. Today in Tesco, their white chocolate chip muffins have gone up in price by 25%. I hope all you brexiteers are happy.
DON'T BUY THEM. THE PRICE WILL FALL IF YOU STOP BUYING.
 
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Zlatan

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Flecc

Obviously the car and its current motivator (ICE) one day will have had its day. Like the weather forcaster who says it will rain, is 100% correct, but the big issue is when.
I left uni in 60's..with advice from careers " don't go into motor industry, the car's days are numbered" .
Was tripe then and is now on 3 accounts.
1) Whilstever its at all possible people will demand personal transport. You cant change human nature.

2) In 60's there was absolutely no alternative to ICE..that fact still holds.
Hydrogen fuel cells were invented in 1839 and actually predate ICE but they have not progressed. Linear electric motors..1905. Electric Vehicles predate ICE and are arguably no better relatively than in early days. Battery technology has come on...a bit...bit lets look at it.
Power to weight , batteries are superb. They can give all their power quickly...but in vehicles primarily for transport we need good power to volume.( power density) Cant remember exact figures but if we assume petrol / diesel is unit (1) then examine storage needed for other energy storage its obvious nothing can compare.( lead acid scores 11, lithium batteries 7, compressed air 10,.In other words the best batteries now available need 7 times the volume to store same energy as petroleum / diesel. ( actually diesel is 0.96, it contains a bit more energy than petrol)
In effect there simply is no alternative.
Drive a Tesla S, superb for 140 miles...New batteries every 5 years..It does not really work and that's the best we have.( Imagine driving 1000 miles in it, 5 full overnight charges or 7 85% ones ???)

3) You fail to see the financial implications of the car. Without the business it generates there would be no other businesses. Its the ultimate consumer item. Without a replacement civilisations would fail with its removal .

So we need to find both an alternative to replace the cars ( and ICE) to replace the consumer hole its loss would replace, and an alternative
technology. When both are found we might be able to say the car ( and ICE) has a definite date for its extinction. As it is there is simply no alternative..
So how can anyone predict a date for its demise...
London is as far removed from a realistic scenario of transport demands as its possible to find..

The car and ICE will be with us another 100 years...at least.
If there really was a viable alternative it would be carrying reps up and down M1 by now.
 
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Isn't the UK second only to Germany in terms of the amount contributed to the EU? We are good customers to the German car industry. We buy more good from the EU than we sell.

We are only one of 27, I agree, but we are only one of a handful which actually contribute, and we contribute a great deal by comparison to other EU nations.

The post which you made that I disagreed with dismissed the UK as being almost irrelevant to the EU. That isn't correct.

I'm not saying that we are indispensable within the EU and that they will be forced to give us a good exit deal. What I am saying is that the UK's membership is not as irrelevant, as you suggest. I believe that we, the U.K, have a negotiating position and that the EU will not dismiss us in a, couldn't care less, manner. I think you are wrong with that assumption and that is why I disagree with you.
ok, I agree that our contribution will be missed, but we are leaving - so there no room for negotiation on that point.

However yes we're good customers of the German car industry now, just like we are the european bike brands. But post Brexit, we still will be, that won't change and we have no bargaining power on that point. I don't drive a German car, I've got a shiny new Mondeo, I bought it because I like to support companies that support cycling and Ford sponsor the SKY team. So when I bought it I told them why.

The Mondeo was made in Spain. Would it being 10% more stop me buying it, no because pretty much all the alternatives are sourced from outside the UK, so in a post Brexit world, they'll all be more.

I don't think I said our membership is irrelevant, but I'd link it to any of our customers, even the big ones. If we have 28 customers, the number 2 customer is important... but we won't fail without them, we'd adjust. Any club / business or anything that can't survive after a single member / customer leaves isn't sustainable. So if we leave and it collapses then I'll take your point, and you'll have been right. But I'd suggest we'll leave and the EU continues but all the members are a bit worse off as club, but possibly have companies within the countries will benefit.

Certainly us as a component part of the club, don't have much of a negotiating position, when we've already said we'll leave and if we don't get a good deal we'll just walk away. Surely anyone can see that the EU will just say bye.
 

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