Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Ther's no such thing any more, long ago the title was changed to European Capital of Culture, and Hull isn't one of those.

After Liverpool became a European Capital of Culture in 2008, the UK government thought it would be a good idea to start a UK City of Culture competition, administered by the Department for Culture, Media and Sport.

For 2017 they awarded the title to Kingston upon Hull.
.

Interestingly with the city centre literally "dug up" and no sign of the pavements being relaid any time soon, this "City of Culture" jamboree is not really having much of an impact on the general population, most of whom have shown little to no interest, as they are unlikely to attend an Opera, visit the Theatre or Drool over a £5 million pound painting in the re-opened Ferens Art Gallery.
Personally I have little interest in the goings on, and the general feeling on the street seems to be one of indifference.
Some of the musical events will no doubt attract the young, but there is a feeling that money is being wasted.
Without doubt the two to one vote for Brexit here was a protest vote against the state of the city, and without doubt there is reason for that, here is a letter from the Hull Daily Mail from a reader who sums up many aspects of local feeling rather well

"What a waste of time and money!! More like the City Centre of Culture. Whilst millions is being poured into this sham the rest of the City is dying on its feet. Hull is rife with crime and poverty. The City Centre is half derelict, with large swathes of it a desolute wasteground. The streets of Hull are filthy, rubbish everywhere, the grass never cut and a general air of menace. Public services have been cut to the bone, whilst the scum of Hull are having a field day due to no Police/ Courts deterrent. Money should be put into health and fighting crime. We cut essential services, yet indulge these out of town culture vultures of middle class origin so they can have an orgasm over some obscure Mongolian turnip eaters. We indulge the whims of an elite few rather than the needs of vulnerable children and adults. HULL'S PRIORITIES ARE ALL WRONG!!
Read more at http://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/hull-city-of-culture-2017-full-events-and-what-s-on-guide-for-january-february-and-march/story-29741359-detail/story.html#Zrj0uUAWsmSX7Wdt.99

My feelings are less extreme, but it seems to be going ahead more in the hope of making things better for Hull, than with any real hope of doing so.

Brexit had better be a big success and improve the lot of the people here or things will go way beyond disappointment in short order.
Unfortunately however well intentioned, this City of Culture thing hasn't pleased many locals.

 

[Zlatan]

Good post OG...didnt think you,d approve of me having a go at Hull, you did it for me.Dont forget tho OG, the present system ,including anything eu has or hasn't done, has got Hull where it is today. Could it be worse under Brexit ?

 

[oldgroaner]

Good post OG...didnt think you,d approve of me having a go at Hull, you did it for me.Dont forget tho OG, the present system ,including anything eu has or hasn't done, has got Hull where it is today. Could it be worse under Brexit ?

How wrong can you be? the only employers worthy of note in the city are Siemens and if it wasn't for the EU they wouldn't be here!
And yes it can and will be worse as they are unlikely to remain.
Our own Government an companies are responsible for the state hull was in.
Did the EU relocate the Factory I worked for all my life to China?

 

[tillson]

I thought Gina Miller was a very impressive lady,very eloquent and forthright in her motives,parliament have now been given an opportunity to discuss Brexit,will they have the courage to accept the opportunity.
KudosDave

Gina Miller had every right to bring this case. She has done so, the verdict has been delivered and now MPs will be able to have their say. This outcome coupled with the democratic voting process back in June adds to the credibility of BREXIT. This must now put an end to the whinging.

Remainers have got what they were calling for (MPs to decide) so it's time they now shut up and got behind the BREXIT process.

 

[oldgroaner]

Gina Miller had every right to bring this case. She has done so, the verdict has been delivered and now MPs will be able to have their say. This outcome coupled with the democratic voting process back in June adds to the credibility of BREXIT. This must now put an end to the whinging.

I do so love your sense of humour... top man!

 

[tillson]

I do so love your sense of humour... top man!

Well what do you (remainers) want now? Remainers wanted MPs to decide on BREXIT and now they can. So now what?

 

[oldtom]

This piece of fantasy propaganda which is being put about by the tory media wing should worry everybody in the UK. For a start, why now? Where was the USA previously? Why did Obama say we'd be at the bottom of the pile in terms of trade deals following 'Brexit'? Why the recent change of stance?

Suddenly, under a new, extreme right-wing, capitalist administration in Washington, the good ol' USA wants to get up close and personal with the UK - alarm bells should be ringing on this side of the pond!

There are several reasons why the USA is making overtures toward the UK at this time and none is of a charitable or benevolent nature. The #1 target of their new-found affection for the 'old country' is the NHS which they already know from the fascist government here is in desperate need of investment........that the interested parties in the US just happen to be drug companies and insurance providers should be all the information required to inform the British public of what is afoot.

Following Trump's decision to abandon TPP and TTIP, the Americans will change strategy and selectively get what they want by the easiest means possible rather than negotiate in concert with a large group of countries over years to achieve a deal which may actually restrict the ambitions of American capitalists while helping foreign countries.....Americans not being well-disposed towards foreign countries unless they have lots of untapped oil reserves!

This tory government, having sold off much of our infrastructure to foreign capitalists will have no compunction about doing the same with what remains of our great institutions and corporate America will be more than happy to help out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38749884

Tom

 

[tillson]

This piece of fantasy propaganda which is being put about by the tory media wing should worry everybody in the UK. For a start, why now? Where was the USA previously? Why did Obama say we'd be at the bottom of the pile in terms of trade deals following 'Brexit'? Why the recent change of stance?

Suddenly, under a new, extreme right-wing, capitalist administration in Washington, the good ol' USA wants to get up close and personal with the UK - alarm bells should be ringing on this side of the pond!

There are several reasons why the USA is making overtures toward the UK at this time and none is of a charitable or benevolent nature. The #1 target of their new-found affection for the 'old country' is the NHS which they already know from the fascist government here is in desperate need of investment........that the interested parties in the US just happen to be drug companies and insurance providers should be all the information required to inform the British public of what is afoot.

Following Trump's decision to abandon TPP and TTIP, the Americans will change strategy and selectively get what they want by the easiest means possible rather than negotiate in concert with a large group of countries over years to achieve a deal which may actually restrict the ambitions of American capitalists while helping foreign countries.....Americans not being well-disposed towards foreign countries unless they have lots of untapped oil reserves!

This tory government, having sold off much of our infrastructure to foreign capitalists will have no compunction about doing the same with what remains of our great institutions and corporate America will be more than happy to help out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-38749884

Tom

Simple.

Obama was a clown. An underperforming leader who tried to bully the British public with threats. He is now a washed up has been who will soon be forgotten.

Trump is the real deal. We should be forging stronger trade links with the USA.

Don't think for one minute that the EU leaders wouldn't be doing the same if it were not for the fact that they have had their noses put out by Trump.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Gina Miller had every right to bring this case. She has done so, the verdict has been delivered and now MPs will be able to have their say. This outcome coupled with the democratic voting process back in June adds to the credibility of BREXIT. This must now put an end to the whinging.

Remainers have got what they were calling for (MPs to decide) so it's time they now shut up and got behind the BREXIT process.

We are not whingeing,we are lobbying,we don't agree with the referendum vote and in a democracy are arguing against it. The vote was only advisory and MP's are being blackmailed into voting against their conscience.
If you read your posting 'MP's to decide',that is correct.....Would you be happy if MP's decided to vote down Brexit and Brexiters were told to shut up and accept the MP's decision?
KudosDave

 

[flecc]

My feelings are less extreme, but it seems to be going ahead more in the hope of making things better for Hull, than with any real hope of doing so.

This seems to be true of every case of these elected Cities of Culture, a stimulus in the hope that it will trigger actual improvement.
.

 

[Kudoscycles]

Simple.

Obama was a clown. An underperforming leader who tried to bully the British public with threats. He is now a washed up has been who will soon be forgotten.

Trump is the real deal. We should be forging stronger trade links with the USA.

Don't think for one minute that the EU leaders wouldn't be doing the same if it were not for the fact that they have had their noses put out by Trump.

Assuming Trump is for real,then he is a security risk to himself and the world....talking about bringing back CIA torture,excessive security checks on Muslim countries and building the Mexican wall.....with the ease of gun ownership in the states it can only be a matter of time before someone takes a pop at him,his bulk makes him an easy target.
Obama was a well meaning guy,trying to steer a mandate to offer healthcare to the poor paid for by the middle classes. His mistake was to support globalisation without defending jobs in the rust belt.
Trump was a Brexit style protest vote against continuing the norm and the wealthy establishment,if the democrats had paid more attention to the rust belt and had a different candidate,Trump would have lost badly.
I cannot believe he is still arguing about the size of the crowd at his inauguration and engaged in open war with the media,he seems to lack intelligence and common sense in these matters.
I was prepared to give Trump a chance but he has started very badly,his thin skinned ego is going to be disruptive to good decisions.
Trump and Brexit have raised the expectations of the working and non working poor,I fear that both in the UK and US these people are going to be very disappointed.
Theresa May is going to have a difficult time with Trump,if she mentions his attitudes to women or his attitude to torture,he will tell her to mind her own business if she wants a trade deal,which she is desperate for.
KudosDave

 

[tillson]

We are not whingeing,we are lobbying,we don't agree with the referendum vote and in a democracy are arguing against it. The vote was only advisory and MP's are being blackmailed into voting against their conscience.
If you read your posting 'MP's to decide',that is correct.....Would you be happy if MP's decided to vote down Brexit and Brexiters were told to shut up and accept the MP's decision?
KudosDave

First of all we had the referendum. Remain thought it was in the bag. No mention of it being advisory.

The referendum takes an unexpected turn. All of a sudden, the word advisory surfaces.

Then we were told that people didn't know what they were voting for because they were stupid and it should be left to MPs to decide such an important issue.

Gina Miller then took the issue to court to obtain a ruling on the triggering of Article 50. We were told that this is the only fair way to make this important decision.

The judges have given their verdict and now MPs will have an opportunity to influence the triggering of Article 50.u

Now we hear, "oh but the MPs are being bullied. It isn't fair. Boo hoo. "

Can you detect the pattern? Remain ask for something, they get what they ask for, it blows up in their faces, then they want something else. Then they get more egg on face, and so on.......

Nothing will satisfy you until a decision is taken to overturn a majority choice in favour of a minority. Well that isn't going to happen and so it should not. So stop moaning.

 

[Zlatan]

We are not whingeing,we are lobbying,we don't agree with the referendum vote and in a democracy are arguing against it. The vote was only advisory and MP's are being blackmailed into voting against their conscience.
If you read your posting 'MP's to decide',that is correct.....Would you be happy if MP's decided to vote down Brexit and Brexiters were told to shut up and accept the MP's decision?
KudosDave

Had Gina Miller continued this stance I would have had more respect. She is edging her bets now.
Saying you want democratic process to be followed is completely different to not agreeing with validity of referendum or its result, but at least your stance is honest.

Tillson is spot on. Remainers were shouting for MPs to vote in name of democratic process , now it appears they will endorse invoking art 50 they aren't so sure..
And May is now in a win win situation. Parliament will be remembered for taking us out off eu, not May, she was forced to consult MPs. If art 50 is revoked she still wins, no real alternatives in Tory party and no viable alternative government. She has actually out manoeuvred Remain and Boris/Gove.Dont forget she was a remainer.Gina Miller has done her a big favour.
Our arguments should be deflamed, let those that know better make the decision. Seem to remember KTM and Kudos saying similar, or perhaps MPs are thick racist,xenophobic idiots..??? We,ll see. Either way May stays in power.

 

[Kudoscycles]

First of all we had the referendum. Remain thought it was in the bag. No mention of it being advisory.

The referendum takes an unexpected turn. All of a sudden, the word advisory surfaces.

Then we were told that people didn't know what they were voting for because they were stupid and it should be left to MPs to decide such an important issue.

Gina Miller then took the issue to court to obtain a ruling on the triggering of Article 50. We were told that this is the only fair way to make this important decision.

The judges have given their verdict and now MPs will have an opportunity to influence the triggering of Article 50.u

Now we hear, "oh but the MPs are being bullied. It isn't fair. Boo hoo. "

Can you detect the pattern? Remain ask for something, they get what they ask for, it blows up in their faces, then they want something else. Then they get more egg on face, and so on.......

Nothing will satisfy you until a decision is taken to overturn a majority choice in favour of a minority. Well that isn't going to happen and so it should not. So stop moaning.

Agreed with all you say except the last paragraph....us Remainers are not moaning we are doing a good job of delaying Brexit to give the country and its parliament a chance to discuss and come to the only sensible decision and scrap Brexit.
Theresa May is being forced to make concessions to parliament which is weakening her position almost on a daily basis.
Businesses both big and small are threatening job losses unless we stay in the single market,we all know that if she has to guarantee staying in the single market then she must also agree to freedom of movement,that will shackle May and Davis such that Brexit is so soft as to not worth bothering with,that will effectively be the end of Brexit.
The political pendulum is swinging in favour of scrapping Brexit,MP's only have to have a sniff of being able to vote against it,it just needs an event to polarise that direction....a big company moving to the EU and sacking jobs here will do,blaming Brexit.
Remainers are doing a better job than Jeremy Corbyn.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

First of all we had the referendum. Remain thought it was in the bag. No mention of it being advisory.

The referendum takes an unexpected turn. All of a sudden, the word advisory surfaces.

Then we were told that people didn't know what they were voting for because they were stupid and it should be left to MPs to decide such an important issue.

Gina Miller then took the issue to court to obtain a ruling on the triggering of Article 50. We were told that this is the only fair way to make this important decision.

The judges have given their verdict and now MPs will have an opportunity to influence the triggering of Article 50.u

Now we hear, "oh but the MPs are being bullied. It isn't fair. Boo hoo. "

Can you detect the pattern? Remain ask for something, they get what they ask for, it blows up in their faces, then they want something else. Then they get more egg on face, and so on.......

Nothing will satisfy you until a decision is taken to overturn a majority choice in favour of a minority. Well that isn't going to happen and so it should not. So stop moaning.

Theresa May is on a slippery slope that is getting steeper,she will find out how many friends she has when she clutches at the cliff edge.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Had Gina Miller continued this stance I would have had more respect. She is edging her bets now.
Saying you want democratic process to be followed is completely different to not agreeing with validity of referendum or its result, but at least your stance is honest.

Tillson is spot on. Remainers were shouting for MPs to vote in name of democratic process , now it appears they will endorse invoking art 50 they aren't so sure..
And May is now in a win win situation. Parliament will be remembered for taking us out off eu, not May, she was forced to consult MPs. If art 50 is revoked she still wins, no real alternatives in Tory party and no viable alternative government. She has actually out manoeuvred Remain. Gina Miller has done her a big favour.
Our arguments should be deflamed, let those that know better make the decision. Seem to remember KTM and Kudos saying similar, or perhaps MPs are thick racist,xenophobic idiots..??? We,ll see. Either way May stays in power.

What will be your response if parliament and the Lords put so many amendments into the path of Mayhem?.....ironically it was Rees-Mogg who mastered the art of filibustering.
She didn't offer the white paper without good reason,the maths are not looking good if Labour MP's ignore Corbyn,who has no authority.
I never said that MP's are racist or xenophobic or idiots,but I do think this whole Brexit project is being driven by some racist right wing MP's who are able to pressure Cameron and now May.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Had Gina Miller continued this stance I would have had more respect. She is edging her bets now.
Saying you want democratic process to be followed is completely different to not agreeing with validity of referendum or its result, but at least your stance is honest.

Tillson is spot on. Remainers were shouting for MPs to vote in name of democratic process , now it appears they will endorse invoking art 50 they aren't so sure..
And May is now in a win win situation. Parliament will be remembered for taking us out off eu, not May, she was forced to consult MPs. If art 50 is revoked she still wins, no real alternatives in Tory party and no viable alternative government. She has actually out manoeuvred Remain and Boris/Gove.Dont forget she was a remainer.Gina Miller has done her a big favour.
Our arguments should be deflamed, let those that know better make the decision. Seem to remember KTM and Kudos saying similar, or perhaps MPs are thick racist,xenophobic idiots..??? We,ll see. Either way May stays in power.

If Art 50 is not triggered on March 31,it will not be the end of the Tories but it may be the end of May as PM,difficult to see who can replace her....Boris,hehe!!!!!
KudosDave

 

[oldgroaner]

First of all we had the referendum. Remain thought it was in the bag. No mention of it being advisory.

The Bill introducing the Referendum for Parliamentary approval was written and included the Provisions that it was Advisory and non binding on Parliament, the name Davis was the signatory.

It was the duty of this man to reveal the nature of the referendum, but he did not do so.

And the reason? because he knew full well nobody would bother to vote for or against it if they knew it's true legal status.

Thus was born the first of many lies about Brexit.
Kindly stop peddling this nonsense about no mention of it being made, as if this was a "Remainer" plot.
It was in fact a plot of the Author of the Bill ,and this is true of the people promoting Brexit.too.

Dereliction of duty on their part.
Twisting the truth on yours.

 

[oldgroaner]

Our arguments should be deflamed, let those that know better make the decision

Those who know better? give us an example, and not some of the joke financial vultures you seem to favour.

 

[tillson]

The Bill introducing the Referendum for Parliamentary approval was written and included the Provisions that it was Advisory and non binding on Parliament, the name Davis was the signatory.

It was the duty of this man to reveal the nature of the referendum, but he did not do so.

And the reason? because he knew full well nobody would bother to vote for or against it if they knew it's true legal status.

Thus was born the first of many lies about Brexit.
Kindly stop peddling this nonsense about no mention of it being made, as if this was a "Remainer" plot.
It was in fact a plot of the Author of the Bill ,and this is true of the people promoting Brexit.too.

Dereliction of duty on their part.
Twisting the truth on yours.

Number 10 Downing Street issued a statement prior to the referendum which went something like this: We will ask the people of the UK to vote on a single question. Do they want the UK to remain in the EU or do they want to leave. We will then carry out their choice.

That doesn't sound very advisory to me and it leaves little room for manoeuvre or twisting of the truth.

Where were remain at this point in time saying to the government, hang on, you can't say this, the process is only advisory? Of course, they were silent on this issue because, (1) they thought that remain was in the bag, and (2) they were not even aware of the advisory status thing.

After wiping the egg from their faces, advisory is something which has been researched, discovered and then seized upon by remain after the main event. It's little more than sad desperation.