Brexit, for once some facts.

[flecc]

Toyota Built An Internal Combustion Engine That Sips Hydrogen, And It Sounds Awesome - SlashGear

Toyota's hydrogen-sipping Corolla Hatchback keeps all the sound and vibration of a conventional vehicle without burning a drop of fossil fuel.

www.slashgear.com

Suspect this might be future, definitely for Ice and probably for our transport needs.??
Conversion kits for existing Ice?
Still has the sound, vibration and feel of racing engines, ie soul...
Drove in a very fast Tesla last week. Incredible performance but somehow detached and uninvolving.
Listen to hydrogen car... Can't tell its hydrogen. Agreed its not a Renault V10 but fact is it could be. This is what F1 should have gone. Hybrid biggest con in automotive history.

Totally agree on hybrids and it's great pity that they have a 5 year extension on purchasing them beyond pure ICE. Fortunately the public are waking up to the con as their sales are tumbling now pure e-car ranges have been so greatly increased and their far greater reliability is understood.

But on the ICE exhaust noise I have to disagree. One of the greatest blessings of e-vehicles is that we'll at last be able to get rid of the anti-social aspect of unnecessary vehicle noise and learn to appreciate the benefits of silent refinement instead.

I say e-vehicles since the world already has hundreds of thousands of electric buses, electric vans are already plentiful and fully electric trucks are on their way. Renault has already announced its truck and tractor range which is going full electric and Volvo are hard on their heels.

Our children and grandchildren will at last enjoy a far more peaceful and less polluted urban world.
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[Danidl]

Totally agree on hybrids and it's great pity that they have a 5 year extension on purchasing them beyond pure ICE. Fortunately the public are waking up to the con as their sales are tumbling now pure e-car ranges have been so greatly increased and their far greater reliability is understood.

But on the ICE exhaust noise I have to disagree. One of the greatest blessings of e-vehicles is that we'll at last be able to get rid of the anti-social aspect of unnecessary vehicle noise and learn to appreciate the benefits of silent refinement instead.

I say e-vehicles since the world already has hundreds of thousands of electric buses, electric vans are already plentiful and fully electric trucks are on their way. Renault has already announced its truck and tractor range which is going full electric and Volvo are hard on their heels.

Our children and grandchildren will at last enjoy a far more peaceful and less polluted urban world.
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But on the ICE exhaust noise I have to disagree. .. you and me both!!!.

 

[Danidl]

They already having, but doing it under the cover of their Lexus brand. The pure electric battery Lexus is the one they advertise now, so finally beginning to admit defeat on the silliness of hybrid of any kind.
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I would give Toyota a fools pardon on this one. Without the infrastructure , hybrids were a necessary evil. They effectively primed the pump. I am still in this no mans land zone, where the distance from here to my place in France makes pure electric unfeasible as yet. ..and yes I know my route.. So at the moment I remain in Diesel land. If I did succeed in getting to the French village, I would be able to charge at the library.

 

[flecc]

I would give Toyota a fools pardon on this one. Without the infrastructure , hybrids were a necessary evil. They effectively primed the pump. I am still in this no mans land zone, where the distance from here to my place in France makes pure electric unfeasible as yet. ..and yes I know my route.. So at the moment I remain in Diesel land. If I did succeed in getting to the French village, I would be able to charge at the library.

It's well on the way to feasibility though. With a number of models offering mid 350 miles of range and ultra rapid charge rates adding 100 to 150 miles in 15 minutes, very long distances are rapidly becoming more practical.

As long as they are allowed of course, eventually we'll have to give up driving them and take to public transport for long distances in the greater interest.
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[oldgroaner]

An accurate description of what "Internal Inquiry" actually means

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1388412002733854723

 

[flecc]

I say e-vehicles since the world already has hundreds of thousands of electric buses, electric vans are already plentiful and fully electric trucks are on their way. Renault has already announced its truck and tractor range which is going full electric and Volvo are hard on their heels.

Extract:

“Volvo have set the ambitious goal to have electric trucks account for half of their sales in Europe by 2030. The three new heavy-duty trucks they are now launching mark a giant step towards reaching this target.”

The news comes after Mercedes-Benz Vans announced it will expand production of the eSprinter and Renault Trucks said it intends to offer an all-electric range from 2023.
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[Nev]

I read several financial forums and have noticed a lot of people getting into crypto currencies, for anyone considering doing the same, this article might be of interest.
The Golden Age of Fraud is Upon Us (awealthofcommonsense.com)

 

[Zlatan]

But on the ICE exhaust noise I have to disagree. .. you and me both!!!.

I, m not talking about the anti social aggressive noise of some (illegal) cars and bikes...
On race track that noise is sadly missed but agreed anti social on streets but I think you are missing a safety aspect. Totally silent ecars are dangerous, folk, especially pedestrians do listen for cars. I believe there is discussion to adding a certain degree of engine noise for that very reason.
And, was sat in Tesco car park yesterday and a Merc SL 350 rumbled up beside us. It was by no means noisy, anti social but just sounded fantastic. That will be a loss. The noise of a car engine, despite what some on here might think, does contribute a great deal to a cars ( or any vehicles) character. Does not have to be loud...
I had a Boxster, best thing about it was the muted quiet howl of the flat 6. It was well within legal limits, which over years have become more restrictive.
Nobody is saying you must have a nice sounding engine, if you want a soulless, stoic electric motor... Fine... But don't go down road of stopping everyone having one. World would be a sadder place if all us old fogeys ready for retirement home got our own way with the peace and quiet we value in our dotage.

 

[oyster]

They already having, but doing it under the cover of their Lexus brand. The pure electric battery Lexus is the one they advertise now, so finally beginning to admit defeat on the silliness of hybrid of any kind.
.

Yes - I'm aware of the Lexus. But they have a long way to go in order to move from their current range to any form of electric or hydrogen. And not that much time to get going.

Hybrid can make some sense - e.g. in stop-start traffic. And plug-in hybrid if actually plugged in! But in the real world, not sufficient justification.

 

[flecc]

I, m not talking about the anti social aggressive noise of some (illegal) cars and bikes...
On race track that noise is sadly missed but agreed anti social on streets but I think you are missing a safety aspect. Totally silent ecars are dangerous, folk, especially pedestrians do listen for cars. I believe there is discussion to adding a certain degree of engine noise for that very reason.
And, was sat in Tesco car park yesterday and a Merc SL 350 rumbled up beside us. It was by no means noisy, anti social but just sounded fantastic. That will be a loss. The noise of a car engine, despite what some on here might think, does contribute a great deal to a cars ( or any vehicles) character. Does not have to be loud...
I had a Boxster, best thing about it was the muted quiet howl of the flat 6. It was well within legal limits, which over years have become more restrictive.
Nobody is saying you must have a nice sounding engine, if you want a soulless, stoic electric motor... Fine... But don't go down road of stopping everyone having one. World would be a sadder place if all us old fogeys ready for retirement home got our own way with the peace and quiet we value in our dotage.

I agree on the appeal of racetrack sound and the sound character of some road cars, but as you've noted, the excess noise doesn't stay on the race track.

There's the idiots who bang rods through their silencers. There's the very early morning clatter of cold diesel cars starting up. There's the diesel noise of heavy vehicles. Even the more attractive sporting car sounds are anything but that at inconvenient times And there's the cumulative noise of lots of vehicles. A few years back walking with a friend along the canyon of buildings in the Euston Road we were trying to speak with each other but ending up shouting and had to give up thanks to the total volume of the multiple lanes of traffic alongside, all the noise trapped between the buildings.

The point is we've lived without all this for for millions of years, but suddenly in just a few decades we've been swamped with this perpetual row, and now thank goodness it will be disappearing for good.

And the supposed safety factor of vehicle noise I don't agree with, it's completely the opposite. Vehicle noise has made people dangerously lazy, all too often relying on their ears to start to cross a road and getting hit by a bicycle or a car that happens to be less noisy than one on the other side of the road. We walk or even jog or run on often busy pavements, relying totally on sight to avoid others, and everyone needs to get back into doing that with vehicles for the safety of themselves and others and the greater good.
.

 

[oyster]

I agree on the appeal of racetrack sound and the sound character of some road cars, but as you've noted, the excess noise doesn't stay on the race track.

Imagine if petrol and diesel ICE vehicles had never made any noise (at least, not from their engines). Would people really argue that the new noisy hydrogen ICE vehicles were in any way a good thing?

(No - I can't for the life of me see how this could technically be possible. It is just a thought.)

So, I can agree when re-creating something but for no other reason.

Next, can we move on to a reduction in tyre/road noise?

 

[flecc]

Yes - I'm aware of the Lexus. But they have a long way to go in order to move from their current range to any form of electric or hydrogen. And not that much time to get going.

Hybrid can make some sense - e.g. in stop-start traffic. And plug-in hybrid if actually plugged in! But in the real world, not sufficient justification.

I'm sure Toyota will recover their position very quickly, for any existing car maker e-cars are incredibly easy to bring to the market, the main car makers are bringing in ranges with astonishing rapidity.

I believe hybrid makes no sense whatsoever now, virtually all mass use of IC engines has to stop to meet the necessary zero emission targets since carbon capture and storage will never cope with their outputs. Any future fossil fuel usage will have to be in stationary plants where full on-the-spot capture can happen.
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[Danidl]

I, m not talking about the anti social aggressive noise of some (illegal) cars and bikes...
On race track that noise is sadly missed but agreed anti social on streets but I think you are missing a safety aspect. Totally silent ecars are dangerous, folk, especially pedestrians do listen for cars. I believe there is discussion to adding a certain degree of engine noise for that very reason.
And, was sat in Tesco car park yesterday and a Merc SL 350 rumbled up beside us. It was by no means noisy, anti social but just sounded fantastic. That will be a loss. The noise of a car engine, despite what some on here might think, does contribute a great deal to a cars ( or any vehicles) character. Does not have to be loud...
I had a Boxster, best thing about it was the muted quiet howl of the flat 6. It was well within legal limits, which over years have become more restrictive.
Nobody is saying you must have a nice sounding engine, if you want a soulless, stoic electric motor... Fine... But don't go down road of stopping everyone having one. World would be a sadder place if all us old fogeys ready for retirement home got our own way with the peace and quiet we value in our dotage.

I never ever liked the noise.. not just in my dotage. The only thing worse is the high speed whine of a high speed electric motor ..brush noise.

 

[oyster]

I would give Toyota a fools pardon on this one. Without the infrastructure , hybrids were a necessary evil. They effectively primed the pump. I am still in this no mans land zone, where the distance from here to my place in France makes pure electric unfeasible as yet. ..and yes I know my route.. So at the moment I remain in Diesel land. If I did succeed in getting to the French village, I would be able to charge at the library.

Where I used to live most taxis were Priuses. On one occasion, the driver was explaining most were converted to LPG and they achieved pretty amazing economy. Not entirely sure I believed the numbers.

In Edinburgh, at Waverley, there is a down ramp for taxis. Which means that instead of having to start the engine every few minutes to move towards the pick-up point, they could just roll. (Probably illegal - especially with servo-assisted brakes.) Much, much cleaner than starting engines repeatedly. Anywhere that very short moves, and waits, occur, hybrid can justify itself over pure ICE. I really don't understand why we don't see almost all Post Office vans in hybrid form. Certainly round here, they drive up, stop, switch off, deliver to one or two houses. Jump back in, start and drive for a few more yards. Often a nice belch of diesel smoke as they go. (Some posties walk much further than others. And I do understand where there is significant weight to carry.)

 

[flecc]

Next, can we move on to a reduction in tyre/road noise?

Fortunately that's happening already with e-cars, my latest Nissan Leaf has much quieter tyre treads and even a great reduction in noise generated by air disturbance, so called wind noise. It shows that the general noise of IC cars has been stopping that progress while it remained a lesser issue compared to engine and exhaust noise.

Virtually all my road noise now is due to the terrible state of many of our roads, something a car cannot sufficiently alleviate.
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[oyster]

I'm sure Toyota will recover their position very quickly, for any existing car maker e-cars are incredibly easy to bring to the market, the main car makers are bringing in ranges with astonishing rapidity.

Well, VAG had the sense to introduce MEB platform (following their MQB for ICE). Especially sensible given their predilection to rework the vehicles into multiple brands. If Toyota actually have that sort of basis already to go, they might roll out very fast. But they have only recently launched New Yaris, New RAV4 (plug-in hybrid), Corolla is fairly new, GT 86 isn't even launched yet, New Highlander. So they are still plugging away at ICE pretty strongly.

 

[oyster]

Virtually all my road noise now is due to the terrible state of many of our roads, something a car cannot sufficiently alleviate.

I have some advantages over you there. A lot of our roads are better than many parts of the UK. I can tell when I go into Carmarthenshire - the roads are generally worse. Though we do have a few stretches of anomalously noisy road. Also, so many roads are only suitable for slow driving, high speed road noise is often irrelevant.

 

[flecc]

I really don't understand why we don't see almost all Post Office vans in hybrid form. Certainly round here, they drive up, stop, switch off, deliver to one or two houses. Jump back in, start and drive for a few more yards.

That's a historic view though, now that all vans are available fully electric with day long batteries. Such use is perfect for e-vans, silent, much quicker acceleration and motor braking.

You might be staggered at how quickly they are being adopted. Amazon have a large and rapidly growing fleet andc many other businesses are well on the way. For example facility service provider Mitie has ordered 655 Vivaro-e from Vauxhall. The first of this large order has already been handed over to Mitie, representing the 1,000th electric vehicle in the company’s fleet.

And the sluggish Royal Mail is looking. They are testing the use of electric vans for postal rounds, as part of efforts to cut emissions. The vans are refitted electric black taxi cabs. ... The 2.9 tonne (2,900kg) van will be charged at local post offices. The battery will last for a typical postal round.

And Royal Mail has joined the UK Electric Fleets Coalition, which is calling on the UK Government to commit to 100% electric vehicle (EV) sales by 2030.
It’s one of almost 30 businesses to support the Climate Group’s policy, whgich was revealked in th summer.

Other members include: Anglian Water, BT, Centrica, Dixons Carphone, DPD UK, EDF, E.ON, ENGIE, Fleet Alliance, Foxtons, Heathrow Airport, Hitachi Capital UK, Iberdrola/Scottish Power, Ingka Group (IKEA), LeasePlan, Lime, Mawdsleys, Mitie, Natwest Group, Octopus, Openreach, Orsted, OVO Energy, Severn Trent, SSE, Tesco, Tusker and Unilever.

Things are really happening fast.
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[flecc]

I have some advantages over you there. A lot of our roads are better than many parts of the UK. I can tell when I go into Carmarthenshire - the roads are generally worse. Though we do have a few stretches of anomalously noisy road. Also, so many roads are only suitable for slow driving, high speed road noise is often irrelevant.

Yes, the roads in Dorset are far, far better than ours in London.
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[oyster]

That's a historic view though, now that all vans are available fully electric with day long batteries. Such use is perfect for e-vans, silent, much quicker acceleration and motor braking.

You might be staggered at how quickly they are being adopted. Amazon have a large and rapidly growing fleet andc many other businesses are well on the way. For example facility service provider Mitie has ordered 655 Vivaro-e from Vauxhall. The first of this large order has already been handed over to Mitie, representing the 1,000th electric vehicle in the company’s fleet.

And the sluggish Royal Mail is looking. They are testing the use of electric vans for postal rounds, as part of efforts to cut emissions. The vans are refitted electric black taxi cabs. ... The 2.9 tonne (2,900kg) van will be charged at local post offices. The battery will last for a typical postal round.

And Royal Mail has joined the UK Electric Fleets Coalition, which is calling on the UK Government to commit to 100% electric vehicle (EV) sales by 2030.
It’s one of almost 30 businesses to support the Climate Group’s policy, whgich was revealked in th summer.

Other members include: Anglian Water, BT, Centrica, Dixons Carphone, DPD UK, EDF, E.ON, ENGIE, Fleet Alliance, Foxtons, Heathrow Airport, Hitachi Capital UK, Iberdrola/Scottish Power, Ingka Group (IKEA), LeasePlan, Lime, Mawdsleys, Mitie, Natwest Group, Octopus, Openreach, Orsted, OVO Energy, Severn Trent, SSE, Tesco, Tusker and Unilever.

Things are really happening fast.
.

I certainly agree from where we are now, hybrids for PO wouldn't be sensible.

But a lot of the vans are not very old and I'd be fairly confident that a hybrid petrol of the same vintage would have cost no more to run than a diesel - at least, in the mode of use I most often see.