Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

Little point, Aneurin was Bevan, Ernest was Bevin.

Both ranking as very great and capable politicians. Sadly we don't have their like any more.
.

But don't ask folk in Rotherham /Wentworth specifically for a reference. Built an open cast mine in grounds of best, biggest country house in country for spite. (It's filled in now)
I believe that was Bevin. He had a severe dislike of previous ruling class and arguments with Rockingham Estate (Earl Fitzwilliam) Sorted them by attempting to ruin estate. (open cast coal mine was about 100 yards from house at one point)??? And it does have biggest front in country. (not biggest house tho)

 

[sjpt]

Shapps obviously doesn't remember the controversy over building the Skye bridge!

If he wants to talk about improving connectedness, he should study some geography.

How about Isle of Wight as a much more modest bridge/tunnel proposal?

Or a Kent/Essex, or Swansea/Devon ferry?

Shapps rejected a claim by the Scottish first minister, Nicola Sturgeon, that money could be better spent than on building a link between Scotland and Northern Ireland.

He told the BBC: “I understand that it is not the responsibility of the Scottish first minister to connect the United Kingdom together. The Scottish first minister doesn’t even believe we should be in a united kingdom. So I understand her perspective but I think it is wrong.

“For example, if you live in Northern Ireland, you want to know that you can reliably get the hauliers and lorry drivers in with goods from the mainland of the British Isles. Why would you ever be against connecting different parts of our country in a better way? It shouldn’t be a controversial thought at all.

“As one small part of this union connectivity review [we will] undertake a study of the feasibility of doing that and we will report back in the summer.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/10/review-consider-feasibility-scotland-northern-ireland-tunnel

The bridge does seem a bit mad to me, especially given how remote the part of Scotland is where it will terminate. They may upgrade the road, but it is still a long way from even Glasgow or Carlisle.

Are they planning a custom barrier half way along the bridge, with staging room for 200 lorries?

 

[Zlatan]

This is what Bevin had done to Wentworth.
Hardly a sensible act.
Back to its former glory now and a testament to all that I'll gotten money by ruling class. They are spending a fortune in it, I believe Rese Smog has something to do with it now. Quite a dilemna..???

And now


Best kept secret in country. As a kid I used to tresspas and visit "bear pit" "walled garden" and mausaleuem. All open to public now. 2 miles from Rotherham Town centre

 

[flecc]

But don't ask folk in Rotherham /Wentworth specifically for a reference. Built an open cast mine in grounds of best, biggest country house in country for spite. (It's filled in now)

Makes more sense to me than yet another stately pile built from privilege and disfiguring the countryside. I'd bulldoze and clear 90% of these heaps.

And that the coal was there first wasn't out of spite.
.

 

[flecc]

View attachment 41205

Two ugly heaps side by side. The right hand one temporary out of need at the time, the left hand eyesore still there.
.

 

[Zlatan]

Makes more sense to me than yet another stately pile built from privilege and disfiguring the countryside. I'd bulldoze and clear 90% of these heaps.

And that the coal was there first wasn't out of spite.
.

There was some spite involved Flecc. They could have accessed seam elsewhere. I suspect Bevin was making a point. The entire area is one big seam. Budge decided to move in near Wentworth and opened a few open cast after deepmining stopped and didn't have problems accessing it without going in anyone's garden. . In 1946 they didn't have to put operation literally on the house door step... I understand why, but was actually quite silly. Much as we don't like all these houses they are our heritage and to ruin one is a massive act of vandalism. And, IMHO, that's exactly what this was. Didn't do it to Buckingham Palace, but that's not up north.??

 

[Danidl]

Yes, because contracts were poor.
AZ (as was told to you in link by a contract lawyer previously linked to) agreed to "try and supply EU" because their efforts were already aimed at "supplying" UK in a contract signed 3 months earlier.
You can't roll up at a firm 3 months after somebody else and demand priority when that priority has already been promised to another party.
AZ, even in contracts, said they would "try". Which they are doing.
Read the link. It wasn't political. It simply explained situation and contracts.
And why you and EU are wrong on this issue.
They don't have a leg to stand on in court and won't want to wash their dirty linen in public. They cocked up and they know it. They are in damage limitation now. They should be organising new contracts because they have made same mistake with Moderna, who today have announced they will only be delivering 25% asked for to EU.. Who is common party in all these arguments?? EU is.
If you had signed a contract to purchase a new ebike 3 months ago and I rolled up today and bought the one you were waiting for I bet you, d be p! ssed off, and rightly so. The firm should supply yours and say to me"we, ll try and get you one". That's exactly the situation with EU, oh and fact swathes of EU won't accept jab because it's rubbish. (Berlin has 3 million unused doses)???
Only EU could argue on the one hand vaccine is Quasi effective, no good for those over 65 but can you supply your output before prior requests, oh and we, ve got stocks of the stuff unused. Shambles.

Typical. Changing the subject.. this was not the point of the discussion. The EUs EMA said there was insufficient evidence to recommend it to particular cohorts This was the FACT, not waving Union Jacks or Star spangled banners. It was not an anti UK knee jerk response .. we want the bloody stuff!.
And certainly If I ordered a bike from Woosh, who I understand has a reputation of making bikes ,and is competent and he promised delivery in 4months , and he then made other deals at higher prices ..maybe ,to other people, and told me just as I was expecting delivery ,I would be be annoyed. That is what happened in January. Now had he kept telling me, during those three months that he couldn't get delivery of tyres from Sri Lanka , I would be understanding.. But since its now an anniversary present to a SO , and the jewellers and florists closed ..yep!! I would feel bad and make you know it.
I have read the opinion of that Barrister.. but is he familiar with European Law?.

 

[Zlatan]

Well

Typical. Changing the subject.. this was not the point of the discussion. The EUs EMA said there was insufficient evidence to recommend it to particular cohorts This was the FACT, not waving Union Jacks or Star spangled banners. It was not an anti UK knee jerk response .. we want the bloody stuff!.
And certainly If I ordered a bike from Woosh, who I understand has a reputation of making bikes ,and is competent and he promised delivery in 4months , and he then made other deals at higher prices ..maybe ,to other people, and told me just as I was expecting delivery ,I would be be annoyed. That is what happened in January. Now had he kept telling me, during those three months that he couldn't get delivery of tyres from Sri Lanka , I would be understanding.. But since its now an anniversary present to a SO , and the jewellers and florists closed ..yep!! I would feel bad and make you know it.
I have read the opinion of that Barrister.. but is he familiar with European Law?.

Well tough, you, ve upset me. You thought bike was crap, you, ve got an unused one somewhere, I, m supplying the folk I like, who came months before you and who insisted on having a clause that said "I must supply them" in it. Go elsewhere.
Proof of pudding. EU hasn't got enough. UK has. EU blame somebody else. Why should AZ single out EU and not meet contract? Why should Moderna do same? Even you can see where this is going.
But support EU taking them to court. It will be too late by then. Imagine EU court sitting to decide on this. We, ll all be dead of old age.
And I wasn't waving any flags at all. We don't need to on this aspect. EU has proved it is incapable of organising Vaccine roll out. You simply want to blame companies, which as usual makes no sense. Why should AZ, and now Moderna, single out EU for poor deliveries.
Danidl
What have AZ got to benefit by slowing delivery down. Nothing. Its simply poor planning, contracts and policies from EU. And normal that they and all the indoctrinated look to blame others.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Could you eventually cop yourself on?. ..Too much to hope for ,I expect. The AZ vaccine was the second vaccine authorised in the UK and then in EU. In both cases, it was supplied with inadequate data regarding its efficacy on older cohorts . The UK took the view, any port in a storm, and the EU said we need evidence. The EMA stated that with evidence they would probably review the matter. This was all stated on RTE news the day the EMA reported. Well its use in the UK has provided that evidence, so thanks for being the lab rats ,and the EMA has reviewed, and the National Regulatory Bodies have authorised its more general use. .. However fat lot of good it does, when the original paid for order is reduced by 60% of its agreed amounts, and even that is running at a deficit of 23%..
The Irish vaccines board has said that they have had to revise scheduling and distribution on 15 occasions over the last 2 months due to failures of delivery... Not always AZ.

To summarise the above: The EU were fannying around & were reluctant to commit to what they perceived as being a U.K. product because of Brexit.

AZ became pi$$ed of with the EU’s indecisiveness and political shenanigans and thought **** you. Now we have plenty of vaccine and we are blazing through the age groups. My wife gets hers next week and she’s 55. Still no date for my 70 year old friend in France.

Don’t worry though, as always, the U.K. will show benevolence and help you out.

The EU have royally ****** up their vaccination programme and your explanation / excuse for them is almost as ridiculous as you are.

 

[Jesus H Christ]

Typical. Changing the subject.. this was not the point of the discussion. The EUs EMA said there was insufficient evidence to recommend it to particular cohorts This was the FACT, not waving Union Jacks or Star spangled banners. It was not an anti UK knee jerk response .. we want the bloody stuff!.
And certainly If I ordered a bike from Woosh, who I understand has a reputation of making bikes ,and is competent and he promised delivery in 4months , and he then made other deals at higher prices ..maybe ,to other people, and told me just as I was expecting delivery ,I would be be annoyed. That is what happened in January. Now had he kept telling me, during those three months that he couldn't get delivery of tyres from Sri Lanka , I would be understanding.. But since its now an anniversary present to a SO , and the jewellers and florists closed ..yep!! I would feel bad and make you know it.
I have read the opinion of that Barrister.. but is he familiar with European Law?.

The EU have ****** up and now they look like idiots. Ordinary people in EU states think their leaders are a bunch of ass-holes. They are angry because they have been failed over the supply and delivery of the vaccine.

Please continue to defend them. It’s funny.

 

[oldgroaner]

But Woosh it wasn't as clear cut as that. At the time those figures were used to support the narrative EU wanted at time.
On closer inspection it turned out during trials AZ included all figures from day 1 after jab. Obviously that would include any who catch (or caught) disease from 4 days before to 14 days after. Pfizer removed those figures and counted from day 14..Now ask yourself why that was never pointed out at the time. EU wanted Pfizer to be seen as better (the French at that time still had hope for their own vaccine)
These sort of things should never have got into public domain. JVT and Sarah Ferguson summed it up for UK at the time. Both said look trial results are exactly that but the AZ vaccine kept 90% plus of people out of hospital.
For once our messaging was simple. Take the vaccine, stay out of hospital.
EU were playing games and micro studying trial results which by their nature do not hold the accuracy they bestowed on them.
Full credit to our lot for a change.
Real accuracy about the vaccine efficacy will become available. For the time being just accept it keeps you out the hospital. That by no means makes it Quasi effective. They didn't know, the don't now and won't for another year.
EU cocked up, helped by Macron and Merkel. We didn't. But wait. Give us time. Early days yet.

Actually we did cock up we should have stuck to the instructions of the manufacturer of The Vaccines, lives where put at risk as a matter of expediency because the government itself in a corner

 

[oldgroaner]

Yes, because contracts were poor.
AZ (as was told to you in link by a contract lawyer previously linked to) agreed to "try and supply EU" because their efforts were already aimed at "supplying" UK in a contract signed 3 months earlier.
You can't roll up at a firm 3 months after somebody else and demand priority when that priority has already been promised to another party.
AZ, even in contracts, said they would "try". Which they are doing.
Read the link. It wasn't political. It simply explained situation and contracts.
And why you and EU are wrong on this issue.
They don't have a leg to stand on in court and won't want to wash their dirty linen in public. They cocked up and they know it. They are in damage limitation now. They should be organising new contracts because they have made same mistake with Moderna, who today have announced they will only be delivering 25% asked for to EU.. Who is common party in all these arguments?? EU is.
If you had signed a contract to purchase a new ebike 3 months ago and I rolled up today and bought the one you were waiting for I bet you, d be p! ssed off, and rightly so. The firm should supply yours and say to me"we, ll try and get you one". That's exactly the situation with EU, oh and fact swathes of EU won't accept jab because it's rubbish. (Berlin has 3 million unused doses)???
Only EU could argue on the one hand vaccine is Quasi effective, no good for those over 65 but can you supply your output before prior requests, oh and we, ve got stocks of the stuff unused. Shambles.

if you had invested as much as the EU had in that vaccine you would have a right to expect them to stick to the contract. Effectively we ordered something someone else has paid to develop

 

[oldgroaner]

Well

Well tough, you, ve upset me. You thought bike was crap, you, ve got an unused one somewhere, I, m supplying the folk I like, who came months before you and who insisted on having a clause that said "I must supply them" in it. Go elsewhere.
Proof of pudding. EU hasn't got enough. UK has. EU blame somebody else. Why should AZ single out EU and not meet contract? Why should Moderna do same? Even you can see where this is going.
But support EU taking them to court. It will be too late by then. Imagine EU court sitting to decide on this. We, ll all be dead of old age.
And I wasn't waving any flags at all. We don't need to on this aspect. EU has proved it is incapable of organising Vaccine roll out. You simply want to blame companies, which as usual makes no sense. Why should AZ, and now Moderna, single out EU for poor deliveries.
Fanidl
What have AZ got to benefit by slowing delivery down. Nothing. Its simply poor planning, contracts and policies from EU. And normal that they and all the indoctrinated look to blame others.

The EU you put a lot of money into developing this vaccine we put a pittance in it's much more likely we get preference for one reason
Because we pay more

 

[Zlatan]

The EU have ****** up and now they look like idiots. Ordinary people in EU states think their leaders are a bunch of ass-holes. They are angry because they have been failed over the supply and delivery of the vaccine.

Please continue to defend them. It’s funny.

My French mates (yes I have a few) and all expats over there I know are sick to back teeth of vaccine roll out. They blame EU, Macron, Merkel and other nationals (for showing hesitancy). Not a single one blames AZ. Only a fool would blame the company making the stuff and wanting to sell as much as they can. There, s a certain lack of understanding of how capitalism works blaming the company for not supplying. The one thing we know for sure is AZ want to sell as much vaccine as they possibly can. Wonder who is stopping them?

 

[Zlatan]

But to be fair, I don't think they fannied about just because of Brexit.
AZ made some fundamental errors in data analysis. (like including folk in it before post 14 days of jab) The error in dosing didn't help as didn't the few in trial over 65...but the difference was MHRA saw through all that quickly. EMA did not,they went over and over the data, came to their own conclusions and for right motives delayed decision. MHRA took a calculated risk and from which we(UK) are all now benefitting.
But the UK had ordered the stuff at that stage.
You can't place orders late, not have in place rigid timescales/amounts in contracts, give authorisation late, muddy the waters with insults and negativity and still expect a good roll out...If you suspect you can you are deluded. And then to make matters worse, search to blame others. Not good at all.

 

[flecc]

There was some spite involved Flecc. They could have accessed seam elsewhere. I suspect Bevin was making a point. The entire area is one big seam. Budge decided to move in near Wentworth and opened a few open cast after deepmining stopped and didn't have problems accessing it without going in anyone's garden. . In 1946 they didn't have to put operation literally on the house door step... I understand why, but was actually quite silly. Much as we don't like all these houses they are our heritage and to ruin one is a massive act of vandalism. And, IMHO, that's exactly what this was. Didn't do it to Buckingham Palace, but that's not up north.??

Agreed in part, but your attempt at it being only North South discrimination I don't accept. It not only happens down here, the defiling can be done by the privileged. Take Addington Palace on my doorstep, the fourth of the Archbishop of Canterbury's palaces (none at Canterbury!)

A magnificent palace in the Paladian style on a perfect south facing North Downs slope with the grounds designed by Capability Brown and having a world famous Cedars of Lebanon at the front:

The Archbishop finally left us to go to Lambeth Palace in 1850 and this palace became the home of the Royal School of Church Music, which in more recent times was a favourite private haunt of the Queen in preference to Buckingham Palace which she's always disliked.

Eventually the C of E's decline meant the school of church music had to give up and move somewhere less palatial and Addington Palace became a hotel for the privileged who promptly destroyed Capability Browns superb landscaping north of the palace by constructing a golf course over much of it, despite being touching contact alongside a large existing golf course. Not content with that, to reduce costs they gave up much of the southern half of the grounds to the council as a public park where funfairs and the like are held.

Ironically the hotel failed though the golf course persists as an exclusive golf club and the palace is now an exclusive marriage venue for the richest:

So the south also cops this style of destruction and the vandals can be the right wing privileged as much as the socialists of the left

 

[Zlatan]

Agreed in part, but your attempt at it being only North South discrimination I don't accept. It not only happens down here, the defiling can be done by the privileged. Take Addington Palace on my doorstep, the fourth of the Archbishop of Canterbury's palaces (none at Canterbury!)

A magnificent palace in the Paladian style on a perfect south facing North Downs slope with the grounds designed by Capability Brown and having a world famous Cedars of Lebanon at the front:

The Archbishop finally left us to go to Lambeth Palace in 1850 and this palace became the home of the Royal School of Church Music, which in more recent times was a favourite private haunt of the Queen in preference to Buckingham Palace which she's always disliked.

Eventually the C of E's decline meant the school of church music had to give up and move somewhere less palatial and Addington Palace became a hotel for the privileged who promptly destroyed Capability Browns superb landscaping north of the palace by constructing a golf course over much of it, despite being touching contact alongside a large existing golf course. Not content with that, to reduce costs they gave up much of the southern half of the grounds to the council as a public park where funfairs and the like are held.

Ironically the hotel failed though the golf course persists as an exclusive golf club and the palace is now an exclusive marriage venue for the richest:

So the south also cops this style of destruction and the vandals can be the right wing privileged as much as the socialists of the left

Agreed Flecc. The North South thing was wrong. Apologies. Its the working man that suffers, either toiling in the mess or looking at it afterwards.
The area was spoilt for over a generation,and without the benefit of more employment.
Open cast sites are short lived or ravage massive areas. By 1950 all that was left was a derilict used up mine and a crumbling old house. Before my time but old family family members used to speak of area being superb pre war... but destroyed in 1946.(more damage than Hitler did was a oft used comment) Just about back to as it should be now.

 

[Danidl]

To summarise the above: The EU were fannying around & were reluctant to commit to what they perceived as being a U.K. product because of Brexit.

AZ became pi$$ed of with the EU’s indecisiveness and political shenanigans and thought **** you. Now we have plenty of vaccine and we are blazing through the age groups. My wife gets hers next week and she’s 55. Still no date for my 70 year old friend in France.

Don’t worry though, as always, the U.K. will show benevolence and help you out.

The EU have royally ****** up their vaccination programme and your explanation / excuse for them is almost as ridiculous as you are.

Except .. even with our problems of supply, we have vaccinated a greater percentage of our population than the UK. Just quit the sham bit about efficacy of the Pfizer beyond 3 weeks. The Pfizer protocol specific gives a duration. The AZ may be OK at 12weeks.

 

[oldgroaner]

View attachment 41205

View attachment 41206

This is what Bevin had done to Wentworth.
Hardly a sensible act.
Back to its former glory now and a testament to all that I'll gotten money by ruling class. They are spending a fortune in it, I believe Rese Smog has something to do with it now. Quite a dilemna..???

And now
View attachment 41208

Best kept secret in country. As a kid I used to tresspas and visit "bear pit" "walled garden" and mausaleuem. All open to public now. 2 miles from Rotherham Town centre

It was not only a sensible acts but critical to the nation survival at the time not that you care about that

 

[oldgroaner]

Well

Well tough, you, ve upset me. You thought bike was crap, you, ve got an unused one somewhere, I, m supplying the folk I like, who came months before you and who insisted on having a clause that said "I must supply them" in it. Go elsewhere.
Proof of pudding. EU hasn't got enough. UK has. EU blame somebody else. Why should AZ single out EU and not meet contract? Why should Moderna do same? Even you can see where this is going.
But support EU taking them to court. It will be too late by then. Imagine EU court sitting to decide on this. We, ll all be dead of old age.
And I wasn't waving any flags at all. We don't need to on this aspect. EU has proved it is incapable of organising Vaccine roll out. You simply want to blame companies, which as usual makes no sense. Why should AZ, and now Moderna, single out EU for poor deliveries.
Danidl
What have AZ got to benefit by slowing delivery down. Nothing. Its simply poor planning, contracts and policies from EU. And normal that they and all the indoctrinated look to blame others.

If the UK has enough of the vaccine, why are we not catching up on the numbers of second jabs?
That was supposed to be an emergency action only