Brexit, for once some facts.

[oldgroaner]

Start the day with a smile
From the mirror
"
Ukip's leader has to ask Nigel Farage to stop insulting his top team
Paul Nuttall spoke out after the loudmouth ex-leader was accused of scuppering his bid to unify the party.

Farage speak with consideration for others?

 

[anotherkiwi]

What are the odds we will be hearing "social justice means social justice" any day soon now?

 

[oldgroaner]

Brexit isn't the real problem that faces us all.
I regard it more of a symptom than a disease.
The real disease is that we deperately need to completely review the way the the country, allegedly a democracy, is simply ruled by a class of Elite people in just the same way as the Normans did over the Saxons after 1066.
The difference is only that of the "Saxons" now being guided, cajoled, bullied and lied to to make them accept their situation as if it is inevitable and the only possible way to run the country,
The Referendum in fact was seen in different ways by the "people" and the "Elite"
The people thought they were "sending a message" and "taking back control"
When it fact they were "Believing a message" and "Surrendering Control" to people they did not realise were their tormentors, and to make make matters worse they are gripped by the illusion "We can always vote them out."
Completely ignoring the all too obvious fact that the Whole Westminster Flying Circus of Politicians are just members of the same team wearing different colours, to confuse the voter into thinking choice exists where there is none.

 

[oldgroaner]

What are the odds we will be hearing "social justice means social justice" any day soon now?

Or "Red, white and Blue, that's Social Justice?"

 

[oldtom]

Brexit isn't the real problem that faces us all.
I regard it more of a symptom than a disease.
The real disease is that we deperately need to completely review the way the the country, allegedly a democracy, is simply ruled by a class of Elite people in just the same way as the Normans did over the Saxons after 1066.
The difference is only that of the "Saxons" now being guided, cajoled, bullied and lied to to make them accept their situation as if it is inevitable and the only possible way to run the country,
The Referendum in fact was seen in different ways by the "people" and the "Elite"
The people thought they were "sending a message" and "taking back control"
When it fact they were "Believing a message" and "Surrendering Control" to people they did not realise were their tormentors, and to make make matters worse they are gripped by the illusion "We can always vote them out."
Completely ignoring the all too obvious fact that the Whole Westminster Flying Circus of Politicians are just members of the same team wearing different colours, to confuse the voter into thinking choice exists where there is none.

OG, I like your whole post there and the general thrust is spot-on for me. I could take issue with lumping the 'Whole Westminster Flying Circus' together as there are some decent people in the Labour Party working hard for their constituents and the country at large - none is part of the Blairite/New Labour wing of the tory Party though! I won't take issue as the means to change things does ultimately lie in the hands of the voters. Sadly, the voters have been brainwashed over many decades by those with control of all media sources; brainwashed against the socialist movement which, as the Labour Party, gave this country the NHS, full employment, took the nation out of crippling, post-war debt and much, much more.

Your point about democracy is well-made and although I bang on a lot about the teaching failures which cause our young people to inherit a distorted view of history, once again I would criticise an education system that releases millions of our citizens into adult life without any understanding of what the terms 'oligarchy' or 'plutocracy' mean. Even the smarter than average guy in the street who might know the answer probably imagines that the terms relate only to governments in some foreign lands, perhaps in the gulf of Arabia.

Our current PM increasingly appears as totally clueless, simply hanging in there hoping for a miracle of any kind to improve her credibility rating which must be among the lowest of any PM in modern history. For me, the best possible deal we can have with the EU is the one we enjoy currently and anything May's three stooges come away with from Brussels is certain to make this country worse off than now.

If our government was genuinely committed to looking after the nation's best interest and ensuring the security of its people, a declaration from May to the effect that the UK will not proceed with 'Brexit' but will remain a fully-committed partner of the 27 other sovereign states would be a real act of courage politically as well as sheer, bloody common sense. That won't happen as our government is not in the least concerned about the best interest of the common people.

Tom

 

[oldtom]

Although the piece I link to here was written 10 months ago, it provides an alternative view from that which people are likely to receive from KuenSSberg, Robinson, Peston and the like at BBC, ITV and SKY, not to mention the tabloid media owned by billionaire benefactors of the tory Party.

I'd like to see more people seek out the alternative commentators on matters political and economic as society needs some balance in journalism, absent in the UK for several decades, if it ever existed at all!

http://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/the-tory-blueprint-for-wrecking-our.html

Tom

 

[Woosh]

Brexit isn't the real problem that faces us all.

I agree.
Brexit will inevitably lead to Scottish independence and Irish re-unification.

 

[oldgroaner]

OG, I like your whole post there and the general thrust is spot-on for me. I could take issue with lumping the 'Whole Westminster Flying Circus' together as there are some decent people in the Labour Party working hard for their constituents and the country at large - none is part of the Blairite/New Labour wing of the tory Party though! I won't take issue as the means to change things does ultimately lie in the hands of the voters. Sadly, the voters have been brainwashed over many decades by those with control of all media sources; brainwashed against the socialist movement which, as the Labour Party, gave this country the NHS, full employment, took the nation out of crippling, post-war debt and much, much more.

Your point about democracy is well-made and although I bang on a lot about the teaching failures which cause our young people to inherit a distorted view of history, once again I would criticise an education system that releases millions of our citizens into adult life without any understanding of what the terms 'oligarchy' or 'plutocracy' mean. Even the smarter than average guy in the street who might know the answer probably imagines that the terms relate to government in some foreign lands, perhaps in the gulf of Arabia.

Our current PM increasingly appears as totally clueless, simply hanging in there hoping for a miracle of any kind to improve her credibility rating which must be among the lowest of any PM in modern history. For me, the best possible deal we can have with the EU is the one we enjoy currently and anything May's three stooges come away with from Brussels is certain to make this country worse off than now.

If our government was genuinely committed to looking after the nation's best interest and ensuring the security of its people, a declaration from May to the effect that the UK will not proceed with 'Brexit' but will remain a fully-committed partner of the 27 other sovereign states would be a real act of courage politically as well as sheer, bloody common sense. That won't happen as our government is not in the least concerned about the best interest of the common people.

Tom

Tom, I wans't as clear as I might have been that my criticism is against the institution of Parliament that we have in this country, not against individuals, who in some cases do their very best against insurmountable odds,

Truly they know only too well that it's hard to remember that you came to drain the swamp while up to your "Wedding Tackle" in Alligators.

 

[oldtom]

I agree.
Brexit will inevitably lead to Scottish independence and Irish re-unification.

While I admire your confidence in the possible consequences of 'Brexit', I can't actually share your opinion as the Scots are possibly the only country in history to vote against independence!

Irish unification would be a wonderful thing though if it is achievable without re-starting old religious-based bigotry and hatred with the warfare that has blighted both Ireland and Britain in the past.

Tom

 

[flecc]

I can't actually share your opinion as the Scots are possibly the only country in history to vote against independence!

I think that was only due to it not being a true independence referendum.

It was heavily polluted by the issue of the EU and the euro, so rather than a choice of UK or independence, it became a choice between the UK and the EU.

With neither looking attractive, most took the safe do-nothing option.
.

 

[oldtom]

Ah! Finally, Mrs Maybe has responded to the criticisms levelled against her and her appointed minions by Sir Ivan Rogers by denying that their thinking is muddled. Well, that's all right then if everything's ok - I feel so much more confident to know that.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38546820

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

I am sure we are all disappointed but not surprised that Theresa May in the Sophy Ridge interview still would not say whether we are staying in the single market,despite Sophy Ridge asking her 3 times.
TM is prioritising immigration control but doesn't seem to have a clue as to what approach we are intending with post Brexit trade.
Prior to the interview they went to Boston,Lincs....the area of the U.K. that most voted to Leave,they struggled to find any Brit as to why they so voted strongly to leave. But in the end they got one guy to admit that they are fed up with foreign workers working harder for less money on the farms,he admitted that Brits would not work that hard....but are we prepared to pay more money for our vegetables just to employ less productive Brits?
KudosDave

 

[oldtom]

But in the end they got one guy to admit that they are fed up with foreign workers working harder for less money on the farms,he admitted that Brits would not work that hard....but are we prepared to pay more money for our vegetables just to employ less productive Brits?
KudosDave

Why am I not surprised Dave? The people can take their pick as to what the referendum was about - was it the difficult to understand economic intricacies of EU membership or was it about the very simple to understand hatred (for whatever reason) of foreign people coming to the UK?

My time on the streets campaigning for 'Remain' in various locations brought home to me very clearly what the issues are for vast numbers of our citizens......'I'm not normally racist but.....' still haunts me as I heard those words or similar time and time again.

Tom

 

[Jimod]

I agree.
Brexit will inevitably lead to Scottish independence and Irish re-unification.

That would be a win, win then. Maybe I should have voted for brexit.

 

[Zlatan]

OG
Much as I agree we live in an extremely divided country geographically, socially and economically its pure speculation this will be worse under Brexit. Infact since the country has got more and more divided over last 35 years there is evidence to suggest it will simply carry on doing so,.
I,ll give you an example.
Myself and best mate both left uni together and both bought houses . He in London, a 2 bed flat for £24k. Myself a 3 bed semi for £12 k midlands in early 70's. There was already a divide, but that divide is now a massive gulf. This week he sold his 2 bed flat ..£975 thousand. I " rightmoved" my old house.Now worth around £160 k..
Yep, you,ll come back saying its irrelevant but it is not. That rise in value represents the same change in the economies of both areas. Successive governments, eu, local governments have only helped make the divide bigger.
Where is your evidence to suggest staying ( or leaving for that matter) have any positive effect in reducing the divide we now see ?
Why should swathes of country exist in poverty yet other areas advance in ways we see. The EU does exactly same, the current system will simply pepetuate under remain..it might change if we leave...but I doubt it..

 

[oldgroaner]

OG
Much as I agree we live in an extremely divided country geographically, socially and economically its pure speculation this will be worse under Brexit. Infact since the country has got more and more divided over last 35 years there is evidence to suggest it will simply carry on doing so,.
I,ll give you an example.
Myself and best mate both left uni together and both bought houses . He in London, a 2 bed flat for £24k. Myself a 3 bed semi for £12 k midlands in early 70's. There was already a divide, but that divide is now a massive gulf. This week he sold his 2 bed flat ..£975 thousand. I " rightmoved" my old house.Now worth around £160 k..
Yep, you,ll come back saying its irrelevant but it is not. That rise in value represents the same change in the economies of both areas. Successive governments, eu, local governments have only helped make the divide bigger.
Where is your evidence to suggest staying ( or leaving for that matter) have any positive effect in reducing the divide we now see ?
Why should swathes of country exist in poverty yet other areas advance in ways we see. The EU does exactly same, the current system will simply pepetuate under remain..it might change if we leave...but I doubt it..

I wonder it the day will come when something other than money and possessions enters into your area of interest

You wrote this
"Where is your evidence to suggest staying ( or leaving for that matter) have any positive effect in reducing the divide we now see ? "
and
"Infact since the country has got more and more divided over last 35 years there is evidence to suggest it will simply carry on doing so,."

Courtesy of the Government the Brexit voters have emboldened and empowered, NOT the EU
The government have in fact fought tooth and nail not to give the EU much chance to change things for the better with their power of VETO.

Hasn't it penetrated yet that that situation is a product of the policies of our own parliament, and frankly pales into insignificance when compared to the social cost of the sort of misrule that is to come from a Parliament that wears the same blinkers you do with pound signs on them??

Your problem is the same as theirs

You know the cost of everything
And the value of nothing

Once again you failed utterly to understand what
I was trying to convey.
There is no case you can make that gives any hope of improvement to the lot of the poor and disadvantaged.
You imagine that you are never going to be in that position, but beware when you do.
An accident or illness could place you in the position of a lamb at the mercy of wolves.

 

[oldgroaner]

Here's a story with a moral that rather illustrated the flaws of the logic Zlatan used in the last post of the "The EU didn't prevent something happening"
I was listening to a Radio 4 Broadcast last week from one of the Midland towns where a factory was closing because it had "overcapacity"
Men from the Workforce declared they had voted for Brexit because the EU hadn't prevented the owners closing the UK factory because it was far cheaper and easier under UK laws than their factories in France and Germany.

What sort of mentality can not understand that the fault is entirely with the UK Government imposing laws that made them vulnerable?

The commentator stumped them by asking.
"Tell me.this if we were not members of the EU would this still have happened?"

After a delay the men answered "Well yes, but we were expecting the EU to treat us the same and protect us."

A classic case of "Brexit logic" of the sort Zlatan tries to convince us makes sense.

 

[oldtom]

Once again you failed utterly to understand what
I was trying to convey.
There is no case you can make that gives any hope of improvement to the lot of the poor and disadvantaged.
You imagine that you are never going to be in that position, but beware when you do.
An accident or illness could place you in the position of a lamb at the mercy of wolves.

OG, I really don't know why you bother, unless it's on the basis that even the most stupid of trolls have feelings too! This Pedelecs troll seems to view any kind of response to his nonsensical, off-topic posts, no matter how negative, as encouragement

For that reason, I prefer to simply ignore his capitalist ramblings while acknowledging that he has the right to his opinions. I do find it strange though that someone who has expressed no interest in owning or riding an EAPC should wish to continue as a participating member of a forum when he/she has nothing in common with the regular membership.

Tom

 

[Lister]

There is a problem with this website, in that anyone can register.

The only other two forums I post on are car type specific, and we have to give our club membership details to access the club forums.

 

[Woosh]

I am sure we are all disappointed but not surprised that Theresa May in the Sophy Ridge interview still would not say whether we are staying in the single market,despite Sophy Ridge asking her 3 times.
TM is prioritising immigration control but doesn't seem to have a clue as to what approach we are intending with post Brexit trade.
Prior to the interview they went to Boston,Lincs....the area of the U.K. that most voted to Leave,they struggled to find any Brit as to why they so voted strongly to leave. But in the end they got one guy to admit that they are fed up with foreign workers working harder for less money on the farms,he admitted that Brits would not work that hard....but are we prepared to pay more money for our vegetables just to employ less productive Brits?
KudosDave

I thought Mrs May was straightforward enough in the interview. The tories will take us out of the EU and the SM. They will try to negotiate a transitional deal. If that deal cannot be reached in two years, they'll go without. The tories will take us to a hard exit unless there is a vote of no confidence before the process is completed.
For those not happy about the way this turns out, there are future opportunities to vote. Brexit is the will of Englanders. Scots and Irish did not vote for it. If they are worse off as the result of brexit, they'll leave the UK.