Brexit, for once some facts.

[Zlatan]

No flecc that's not answering it at all. Its your view of situation. The EU was never intended to become as one country, its developed that way. Itts arguing it should be because it is..self full filling..
I,m asking deeper than that..what are its benefits,risks and problems. The EU has simply charged at this declaring it righteous with scant regard fir any of its consequences. Yes in theory it great , in reality the poor countries simply get poorer,the rich richer. The rich benefit from cheap labour, whilst the already poorly paid get pushed into poverty. In meantime investment is attracted to areas of cheap labour,skilled workers gravitate to investment areas..produces a polarization of wealth. If you are sat in a wealthy zone with reasonable income ( all posters on here?) then its fine. If you happen to either have poorly paid job or live in a poor region basically you are fecked. ( Just look what's happened last 10 years all over eu.If you live in London , then lovely jubbly, what about poor folk in Lithuania, Greece, Spain..or even northern cities.???
If you live in London, then its luvly jubbly,if you own some flash company..great. What about poor in Lithiania, Greece,Spain..What about Northern Cities?

 

[Zlatan]

To look on eu as one country is quite ridiculous. Its a group of countries of vastly different wealths in a union, with each country looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself. Look at Germany, Luxembourg France..and then compare ytthe investments made in Spain,Portugal, Lithuiania. Its flawed and failing.
They pay lip service to common good. Just examine what's happened..Its as plain as day.
Dont kid yourself Flecc, the free movement of labour is to benefit the rich and rich countries. It has done and is doing, unfortunately the far right has thrown a spanner in works..

 

[derf]

No flecc that's not answering it at all. Its your view of situation. The EU was never intended to become as one country, its developed that way. Itts arguing it should be because it is..self full filling..
I,m asking deeper than that..what are its benefits,risks and problems. The EU has simply charged at this declaring it righteous with scant regard fir any of its consequences. Yes in theory it great , in reality the poor countries simply get poorer,the rich richer. The rich benefit from cheap labour, whilst the already poorly paid get pushed into poverty. In meantime investment is attracted to areas of cheap labour,skilled workers gravitate to investment areas..produces a polarization of wealth. If you are sat in a wealthy zone with reasonable income ( all posters on here?) then its fine. If you happen to either have poorly paid job or live in a poor region basically you are fecked. ( Just look what's happened last 10 years all over eu.If you live in London , then lovely jubbly, what about poor folk in Lithuania, Greece, Spain..or even northern cities.???
If you live in London, then its luvly jubbly,if you own some flash company..great. What about poor in Lithiania, Greece,Spain..What about Northern Cities?

I'm originally from a part of Africa where until recently the average life expectancy was 37. I made it to Europe on the back of my qualifications, professional activity. it would have been much, much, much, much (much) easier if I had come from within the eu (say a poor region like Lithuania) in a context of free movement of labour. no work permit first on the basis of an eu employer offeirng me a permanent post before arriving here, no need to provide proof of income, financial independence. no need to present with qualifications and skills that UK citizens don't have as part of qualifying for a post that cannot be filled locally. at the tiem this all felt acceptable to me as part of my idea of a social contract - offering my labour to an open society that supports developing countries and is part of an eu in which there is freedom of movement. as an aside, it doesn't feel like that anymore. the ugly xenophobic self centred and serving brexit uk that wants to take from the world skilled labour and business and give nothing back is a distasteful place I'm quite happy to send on its happy way.
joining the eu - on balance - has been positive for these regions - with much money, and business flowing back there. why do you think the prime minster of Poland wants the polish in uk to have the right to remain?

 

[oldgroaner]

We both know if anything was said approaching positive for brexit it would be ridiculed on here..but like wise why on earth is it ( or appears to be) etched in stone that free market is inextricably linked to free movement. Folk make out its the cornerstone of eu, civilisation and all that's good..when infact its far from any. Yes its great for well to do,s to get cheap help, in my area you can now get your car valeted for £10 ( putting quite a few businesses out of business) or your house decorated for £50 a room. All bordering on exploitation whilst the home countries these workers arrive from are drastically short of any workers( just look at what's happening in Lithuania) and hence investment.
Yep leaving presents problems but so does staying. It cant carry on as is, and perhaps yes we should have stayed and negotiated these problems away, but it seems every single government is totally incapable of doing so.( especially Cameron)
With NHS on breaking point, education in inner city schools appalling,our roads worst in Europe,national debt growing, corrupt government, eu failing in many areas, no help from eu which has proved itself equally corrupt or more so than uk( Juhnkers!!),the rich getting richer and poor poorer how can anyone be surprised at the leave vote ?? The country is in a mess, the EU more so. So why stay?? What are benefits of staying to keep things as they are !!??

Because no matter it's faults, remaining in the EU is a Known situation where the difficulties could with the application of intelligence (perhaps I shouldn't have said that) be resolved, whereas leaving simply means the powers that be here will take the opportunity to exploit the resident population, who in their ignorance imagined they were not Turkeys Voting for Christmas.
The lithuanians and other Johny Foreigners thus released from employment here will go back from being by their standards well off here and able to send money back to the benefit of their needy families.
To being poor as they were before they joined the EU
Thus in one swell foop (jest there to check if anyone is bothering to read my babble)
The lesser orders of not only this nation, but also those incoming from the EU lose out, but the Tory Soul (another jest) can rejoice at not having to pay out benefits, as the starving here will fight for what crumbs are available.
And they can put the clock back 100 years at their convenience where any legislation reduces profit, protects human rights or the Environment.
What a sorry Future for the Human Race!
But inevitable when it is driven. by Mankind's purest emotion, GREED.
I.M.H.O.

 

[derf]

s

Because no matter it's faults, remaining in the EU is a Known situation where the difficulties could with the application of intelligence (perhaps I shouldn't have said that) be resolved, whereas leaving simply means the powers that be here will take the opportunity to exploit the resident population, who in their ignorance imagined they were not Turkeys Voting for Christmas.
The lithuanians and other Johny Foreigners thus released from employment here will go back from being by their standards well off here and able to send money back to the benefit of their needy families.
To being poor as they were before they joined the EU
Thus in one swell foop (jest there to check if anyone is bothering to read my babble)
The lesser orders of not only this nation, but also those incoming from the EU lose out, but the Tory Soul (another jest) can rejoice at not having to pay out benefits, as the starving here will fight for what crumbs are available.
What a sorry Future for the Human Race!
But inevitable when it is driven. by Mankind's purest emotion, GREED.

"swell foop" would have made a passable name for a sailboat (except for screaming it over a VHF as a mayday in an F10)..

 

[KTM Bike Industries UK]

To look on eu as one country is quite ridiculous. Its a group of countries of vastly different wealths in a union, with each country looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself. Look at Germany, Luxembourg France..and then compare ytthe investments made in Spain,Portugal, Lithuiania. Its flawed and failing.
They pay lip service to common good. Just examine what's happened..Its as plain as day.
Dont kid yourself Flecc, the free movement of labour is to benefit the rich and rich countries. It has done and is doing, unfortunately the far right has thrown a spanner in works..

Your complaint / issue isn't then with the EU, its with the modern world.

If you have a problem with the EU on this basis, do you also have a problem with the UK? A group of 4 countries with free movement, with vast different wealth within the union, with each country looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself.

Or how about England, a union of regions or counties, with free movement, with vast differences of wealth within the union, with each region or county looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself.

Or how about Yorkshire.... a union of districts and towns with free movement with vast differences of wealth within the union with each district, town and city looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself.

logic??

 

[oldgroaner]

No flecc that's not answering it at all. Its your view of situation. The EU was never intended to become as one country, its developed that way. Itts arguing it should be because it is..self full filling..
I,m asking deeper than that..what are its benefits,risks and problems. The EU has simply charged at this declaring it righteous with scant regard fir any of its consequences. Yes in theory it great , in reality the poor countries simply get poorer,the rich richer. The rich benefit from cheap labour, whilst the already poorly paid get pushed into poverty. In meantime investment is attracted to areas of cheap labour,skilled workers gravitate to investment areas..produces a polarization of wealth. If you are sat in a wealthy zone with reasonable income ( all posters on here?) then its fine. If you happen to either have poorly paid job or live in a poor region basically you are fecked. ( Just look what's happened last 10 years all over eu.If you live in London , then lovely jubbly, what about poor folk in Lithuania, Greece, Spain..or even northern cities.???
If you live in London, then its luvly jubbly,if you own some flash company..great. What about poor in Lithiania, Greece,Spain..What about Northern Cities?

Why don't you ask that question of the Governments of those respective nations, as after all the day we leave the EU, we shall certainly be asking our Government for it's reasons for the problems here once the Whipping Boy of the EU is off the scene?
The EU doesn't govern the fate of the people in these countries, so your argument is spurious, isn't it?

 

[oldgroaner]

s

"swell foop" would have made a passable name for a sailboat (except for screaming it over a VHF as a mayday in an F10)..

It does have a certain nautical ring to it, doesn't it?

 

[oldgroaner]

No flecc that's not answering it at all. Its your view of situation. The EU was never intended to become as one country, its developed that way. Itts arguing it should be because it is..self

That is clearly just the very thing you complain about, simply a personal opinion, and one not supported by any evidence
"
The main provisions of the treaty still apply, but it has been amended by later treaties (lastly the Treaty of Lisbon in 2007) and renamed to Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.
Treaty establishing the European Economic Community

HIS MAJESTY THE KING OF THE BELGIANS, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY, THE PRESIDENT OF THE FRENCH REPUBLIC, THE PRESIDENT OF THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC, HER ROYAL HIGHNESS THE GRAND DUCHESS OF LUXEMBOURG, HER MAJESTY THE QUEEN OF THE NETHERLANDS,

DETERMINED to establish the foundations of an ever closer union among the European peoples,

An ever closer union among the separate Saxon Welsh and Scottish kingdoms created the United Kingdom (temporarily) in just the same way.

 

[oldtom]

Your complaint / issue isn't then with the EU, its with the modern world.

If you have a problem with the EU on this basis, do you also have a problem with the UK? A group of 4 countries with free movement, with vast different wealth within the union, with each country looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself.

Or how about England, a union of regions or counties, with free movement, with vast differences of wealth within the union, with each region or county looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself.

Or how about Yorkshire.... a union of districts and towns with free movement with vast differences of wealth within the union with each district, town and city looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself.

logic??

Brilliantly made point KTM! - Probably wasted on the particular contributor with such extraordinary views who caused you to respond,

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

Zlatan.....try me,I wont ridicule any suggestions as to positive outcomes after Brexit,I have repeated the question many times on this forum and nobody has any ideas,except 'Brexit means Brexit'.
You have to admit that our government is making a 'pigs ear' of the Brexit so far....not expecting a detail commentary but some idea of the end game would be useful. If I advertise a new project it is not unreasonable to tell my customers what advantages/profit they can expect,what do we hope for post Brexit? Not Theresa May's meaningless catchphrases,some meat.
I asked my local MP the same question,he is an ardent leaver,very much old school tie type,he doesnt have a clue.
KudosDave

 

[Zlatan]

If eu had any real intentions of equal opportunities through eu investment would be pro rata per he's capita. Just look at projects, investments, large corporations throughout EU .. Luxembourg, France, Germany or Uk could not care less about equal distribution. Its all geared towards the more powerful / influential attractiong investment. Yes ofcourse wr can find the occasional philanthropic gesture towards providing jobs, security and futures in poorer areas but in 95% of cases the efforts are made towards attracting investment to the member states represented by the major players. Its there for all to see, perfect example Luxembourg. Or do posyrts think its just coincidence nearly every major corporation is centred there.ofcourse not. Just open your eyes.
And yes the case is same in UK, with South East attracting bulk of major investment, with so called northrrn ppwerhouses fighting over scraps. Two wrongs dont make a right and the potential for further discrimination against poorer regions is colossal in eu and amazingly against their so called principles. You Europhiles have been conned..and you,ve taken it hook line and sinker..equally as bad as Leave with Farage and his rhetoric bs.
I just cant understand how you cant see it. The EU does not exist. Its a load of national MP,s watching out for their own countries. It will never be any different. The MEP,s dont go too Brussels to redistribute wealth, or cure poverty, or ensure equal investment accross EU. They go to get best deal they can for home nation. So far Juhnkers is winning hands down.

 

[oldtom]

The nonsense of the whole 'Brexit' concept continues, still in the absence of any strategic plan that the proponents/government of the day would wish to share with the nation.

This piece from Vox Political draws attention once more to the kind of thought processes from those entrusted with organising our post Article 50 discussions. I doubt very much whether the average 'Brexit'-voting simpleton had any idea just how badly 'Brexit' would be for ordinary people, with employment and human rights stripped away and only the rich business community still enjoying assistance at the expense of ordinary taxpayers.

There will be no benefits whatsoever in any way for the vast majority of the British public by exiting the EU. Were there anything to be gained, we would have heard of it by now, 161 days after the referendum.

http://voxpoliticalonline.com/2016/12/01/if-the-uk-is-willing-to-pay-to-stay-in-the-single-market-why-leave-the-eu-at-all/

Tom

 

[Kudoscycles]

No flecc that's not answering it at all. Its your view of situation. The EU was never intended to become as one country, its developed that way. Itts arguing it should be because it is..self full filling..
I,m asking deeper than that..what are its benefits,risks and problems. The EU has simply charged at this declaring it righteous with scant regard fir any of its consequences. Yes in theory it great , in reality the poor countries simply get poorer,the rich richer. The rich benefit from cheap labour, whilst the already poorly paid get pushed into poverty. In meantime investment is attracted to areas of cheap labour,skilled workers gravitate to investment areas..produces a polarization of wealth. If you are sat in a wealthy zone with reasonable income ( all posters on here?) then its fine. If you happen to either have poorly paid job or live in a poor region basically you are fecked. ( Just look what's happened last 10 years all over eu.If you live in London , then lovely jubbly, what about poor folk in Lithuania, Greece, Spain..or even northern cities.???
If you live in London, then its luvly jubbly,if you own some flash company..great. What about poor in Lithiania, Greece,Spain..What about Northern Cities?

I am sympathetic to those who live in the poorer areas wanting to better themselves....those who want to get off their backsides and work....even in our so called wealthy south east there are those who fall in or out of Weatherspoons and Corals,what is Brexit going to do for them? What should it do for them?
But Brexit wasnt the right mechanism to voice their protest.....Hammonds recent budget,immediately after May's 'for everyone' speech,did nothing for the poor,in fact it seemed to make every poor person/family between £1200-£2000 worse off,he ignored Brexit and reverted to tax reductions for big business. Yet,Brexiters seem oblivious to what he did,in fact they want Brexit to happen asap so that they can 'enjoy' more of the same,when are they going to wake up and smell the coffee!!!!!Or has their nose been blinded by Shepherd Neame Old !!!!
Boris is not stupid,he acts like a buffoon,but it is an act. He realises that nothing of any substance is happening inside government and needs to distance himself from May and Davis,when they fall....about the moment when May tries to get Article 50 through parliament...the rebels have said they wont vote against it but they can sure make a mess of it and the Lords could keep it going for months.
I said on June 24 that Brexit wont happen and daily feel more that is the case,but the damage on the way may take years to repair....Hammond is going to be shocked that his corporation tax take will be 40% down in 2017,austerity will be awful.
KudosDave

 

[Kudoscycles]

If eu had any real intentions of equal opportunities through eu investment would be pro rata per he's capita. Just look at projects, investments, large corporations throughout EU .. Luxembourg, France, Germany or Uk could not care less about equal distribution. Its all geared towards the more powerful / influential attractiong investment. Yes ofcourse wr can find the occasional philanthropic gesture towards providing jobs, security and futures in poorer areas but in 95% of cases the efforts are made towards attracting investment to the member states represented by the major players. Its there for all to see, perfect example Luxembourg. Or do posyrts think its just coincidence nearly every major corporation is centred there.ofcourse not. Just open your eyes.
And yes the case is same in UK, with South East attracting bulk of major investment, with so called northrrn ppwerhouses fighting over scraps. Two wrongs dont make a right and the potential for further discrimination against poorer regions is colossal in eu and amazingly against their so called principles. You Europhiles have been conned..and you,ve taken it hook line and sinker..equally as bad as Leave with Farage and his rhetoric bs.
I just cant understand how you cant see it. The EU does not exist. Its a load of national MP,s watching out for their own countries. It will never be any different. The MEP,s dont go too Brussels to redistribute wealth, or cure poverty, or ensure equal investment accross EU. They go to get best deal they can for home nation. So far Juhnkers is winning hands down.

I agree with much of that,just dont see how Brexit is going to redistribute wealth????Would you describe yourself as communist or a Corbynite???
Kudos 'capitalist' Dave

 

[Kudoscycles]

Your complaint / issue isn't then with the EU, its with the modern world.

If you have a problem with the EU on this basis, do you also have a problem with the UK? A group of 4 countries with free movement, with vast different wealth within the union, with each country looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself.

Or how about England, a union of regions or counties, with free movement, with vast differences of wealth within the union, with each region or county looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself.

Or how about Yorkshire.... a union of districts and towns with free movement with vast differences of wealth within the union with each district, town and city looking to gain as much benefit as it can for itself.

logic??

Where's Yorkshire,is that in England????hehe

 

[flecc]

No flecc that's not answering it at all. Its your view of situation. The EU was never intended to become as one country, its developed that way.

You are wrong, it is not merely my view, it was always the intention of the EU to become one country. Like many you are referring to previous bodies such as the European Iron and Steel Community, the Common Market etc. that previously existed when we signed up to the latter in the 1970s.

But the intentions of the founder members had become clear very early and the Treaty of Maastricht made the unification intention an absolute for all members. We had the option, sign up to Maastricht and agree or leave the union.

Our democratically elected representatives signed up to that treaty, meaning we, including you, had agreed through our government to an eventual target of union. Those are the facts and your dislike of them doesn't alter them.
.

 

[oldtom]

I see the tory media has leapt to headline an improvement in the value of sterling as if it were down to some shrewd strategic plan from the British pro-'Brexit' camp. More likely, it is the case that the € and the $ have dipped a little due to matters other than the British intention but clutching at straws has always played a big part in their propaganda programme.

Those who are familiar with the work of Michael Rosen will know he's quite a clever chap who has produced lots of good written material over a number of years. He has expressed his opinion on the situation with regard to much of the Westminster 'politicking' which attracted some people to vote for 'Brexit', not understanding that the EU didn't create the mess Britain is in.

These are Rosen's words:

"Concerns about immigration"? Where does that come from?

The media keep saying:

"People are expressing concerns about immigration
People are expressing concerns about immigration
People are expressing concerns about immigration"

If you are registered as non-dom you can run a business
in the UK but pay no tax. This costs us billions.

"People are expressing concerns about immigration."

If the government cuts public services, they increase
pressure on public services.

"People are expressing concerns about immigration."

Since 1980, wealth has shifted from labour to capital.
In other words those that 'have', have more; those that
have the least, have less. Those that have the least
have given wealth to those that have more.

"People are expressing concerns about immigration"

The government regularly announces that it freezes
the wages of public service workers. This means that
people can afford less. Their living standards decline.

"People are expressing concerns about immigration"

The government has repeatedly brought in policies
which have helped to increase the price of houses.
The proportion of people's income required to rent or buy
has steadily risen. Flats and houses cost more to live in.
There is less space per pound of people's income.

"People are expressing concerns about immigration"

Some people do not know that the main reasons for their
standard of living to go down are nothing to do with immigration.
Instead, they keep hearing:

"People are expressing concerns about immigration."

You know what happens next?

some people express some concern about immigration.
After all, people can only think what they think
based on available information.
The media supply the available information.
They keep saying:

'People are expressing concerns about immigration."

The government laughs quietly to itself:
"People do not blame us for their living standards going down,
they blame immigration."

Tom

 

[oldgroaner]

If eu had any real intentions of equal opportunities through eu investment would be pro rata per he's capita. Just look at projects, investments, large corporations throughout EU .. Luxembourg, France, Germany or Uk could not care less about equal distribution. Its all geared towards the more powerful / influential attractiong investment. Yes ofcourse wr can find the occasional philanthropic gesture towards providing jobs, security and futures in poorer areas but in 95% of cases the efforts are made towards attracting investment to the member states represented by the major players. Its there for all to see, perfect example Luxembourg. Or do posyrts think its just coincidence nearly every major corporation is centred there.ofcourse not. Just open your eyes.
And yes the case is same in UK, with South East attracting bulk of major investment, with so called northrrn ppwerhouses fighting over scraps. Two wrongs dont make a right and the potential for further discrimination against poorer regions is colossal in eu and amazingly against their so called principles. You Europhiles have been conned..and you,ve taken it hook line and sinker..equally as bad as Leave with Farage and his rhetoric bs.
I just cant understand how you cant see it. The EU does not exist. Its a load of national MP,s watching out for their own countries. It will never be any different. The MEP,s dont go too Brussels to redistribute wealth, or cure poverty, or ensure equal investment accross EU. They go to get best deal they can for home nation. So far Juhnkers is winning hands down.

Here is a question for you , do MEPs in the EU parliament sit in National Groups? just curious.

 

[Zlatan]

Here is a question for you , do MEPs in the EU parliament sit in National Groups? just curious.

Does it really make any difference OG ??
Results speak volumes. How long has eu been operating ?
How much redistribution of investment/ wealth has it created? What incentives are offered for major corporations to move to Greece ? Spain? Lithuania? And how many have moved to Luxembourg ? France ? Germany ? Because of favourable tax concessions those countries can give...which the likes of Greece cant compete with because of eu law ??? Luxembourg has thousands of major corporations enjoying tax conditions illegal in other parts of eu ? And why ? Because Juhnkers is ex Luxembourg priminister !!!
UK can offer those same incentives ....but we have to leave EU to do so ???